Christianity and The Truth

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
if God is One and He says what He says He is than we must admit He cannot contradict or teach contraries things to different people and cause confusion among many.

Again Catholics keep saying that God can’t contradict Himself, but they fail to show how my religion actually contradicts and they also fail to admit the many places in Catholicism that are contradictory.

What’s up with that?

God, by definition, can not have anything to do with contradiction. You either believe that or not. Do you believe that?

Show us something about your religion that you think we would think is contradictory within your religion itself or in contrast to our religion, and then we can talk.

Reincarnation is a good example, by the way. God being composed of more than three persons is another one. The list is probably very long indeed!

There is nothing within Christianity (Catholic version) which is contradictory to any other thing within said “system” (aka reality), if those things are properly understood as the Church unstands them.

Please show us “the many places in Catholicism that are contradictory”, and we can try to educate you. Thanks!

 

[Neil_LA]

God, by definition, can not have anything to do with contradiction. You either believe that or not. Do you believe that?

Show us something about your religion that you think we would think is contradictory within your religion itself or in contrast to our religion, and then we can talk.

Reincarnation is a good example, by the way. God being composed of more than three persons is another one. The list is probably very long indeed!

There is nothing within Christianity (Catholic version) which is contradictory to any other thing within said “system” (aka reality), if those things are properly understood as the Church unstands them.

Please show us “the many places in Catholicism that are contradictory”, and we can try to educate you. Thanks!

Once again, you’re evading my question with pointless hyperbole

God can never be contradictory? I think having a person come back to life after being dead is rather contradictory…

 

[Neil_LA]

God being composed of more than three persons is another one.
QUOTE]

I don’t recall saying this…

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
i know very little about your religion. i know that your religion believes in reencarnation, reach a certain level of calmness of the mind to free one’s soul, yoga, holy serpent, is all about humans reaching the knowledge necessary to live a better life. there are other believes too.

Yeah, you obviously don’t know anything about my religion. And yet you are extremely quick to rush to judgement and jump to conclusions…again I ask:

What’s up with that? I really don’t get you people!!!

I give up!!!

We’r here to inform you of us. We are also interested in how it is that others are incorrect in their understanding of God.

We don’t NEED to know anything about your religion. That is YOUR JOB. If you want to tellus something about your religion, then do so, and we’ll tell you how it “meshes” with the truth.

If you’re simply after “agreement” that we can both be “right” about things which are either true or not, then you’ve come to the wrong place.

You have “rushed to judgement” that YOUR religion must be accepted as truth, and that no one else is justified in taking that same position.

We admit that we measure all other religions against our religion and tell those who tell us about their religion where they are correct and incorrect. We admit that you are fully “allowed” to call your incorrectness/error (relative to the truth as per reality [the Church]) correctness/truth.

What is it you really object to? That people would DARE to call your “truth” incorrect? How is it that you don’t do the same thing?

You don’t like us having the same freedom of speech that you do, apparently. And that means you don’t “get us”?

What is your goal if you “give up” in having a conversation which is simply an exchange of information?

 

[wisdomseeker]

How can there be more than One God?

Seems that I (as a Hindu) actually have more faith in monotheism than you do…

NEIL

if you answer my question instead of being sarcastic you may get the answer you want.

again, would you say that the God of the Book of Genesis is the same God you worship and believe?

 

[Neil_LA]

NEIL

if you answer my question instead of being sarcastic you may get the answer you want.

again, would you say that the God of the Book of Genesis is the same God you worship and believe?

As I have stated several times in this thread, I believe God appears (or "reveals Himself) to different people in different ways at different times.

There is only One God.

I worship a different FORM of God, but God is One, so there isn’t anyway that we worship “different gods.”

I believe I have elaborated on this elsewhere in this thread.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I’m not uncalm, thank you very much. I try to have a discussion and my questions don’t get answered in a rational way, and my religion gets attacked and I’m told I’m jumpy…

Yes, you were uncalm. But that’s OK, as your refusal to understand that we’re not attacking your religion would make anyone uncalm. Your questions ARE, in fact, being answered in a VERY rational way.

Anyway…I’m really beinging to doubt the sanity of contiuning this conversation.

I just wish someone would show me why they contend that the Judeo-Christian tradition is a “divine revelation” and yet the Vedic tradition isn’t.

We’ve shown you why. It is a “circular rationale” to anyone who doesn’t truly understand what direct REVELATION means. We believe no other people are God’s people except the Church, which is open to all by the way, because we were told that fact BY GOD, and it has proved true (as would be expected being FROM GOD!), and because only direct revelation comes from God’s people, of which the people of the vedic tradition, while probably influenced by the people of God at some point, are not given direct revelation, but only their skill in elaboration of natural law given to all of mankind’s individuals.

It continues to seem that you are relying on the statement of the tradition itself that it is a divine revelation, and yet you can’t say why you believe that the statement of the Judeo-Christian tradition is correct, while the statement of the Vedic tradition isn’t.

Yes, I have studied Catholicism. One needs to do one’s homework before one can make an informed choise.

The tradition (Catholic) is directly from God, and is to be believed in this matter as truth.

The Catholic tradition is from God via direct revelation. The Vedic tradition is from God via human elaboration of natural law.

Is that explicit enough for you?

 

[Neil_LA]

Yes, you were uncalm. But that’s OK, as your refusal to understand that we’re not attacking your religion would make anyone uncalm. Your questions ARE, in fact, being answered in a VERY rational way.

We’ve shown you why. It is a “circular rationale” to anyone who doesn’t truly understand what direct REVELATION means. We believe no other people are God’s people except the Church, which is open to all by the way, because we were told that fact BY GOD, and it has proved true (as would be expected being FROM GOD!), and because only direct revelation comes from God’s people, of which the people of the vedic tradition, while probably influenced by the people of God at some point, are not given direct revelation, but only their skill in elaboration of natural law given to all of mankind’s individuals.

The tradition (Catholic) is directly from God, and is to be believed in this matter as truth.

The Catholic tradition is from God via direct revelation. The Vedic tradition is from God via human elaboration of natural law.

Is that explicit enough for you?

You still haven’t shown me why this is “the Truth” other than because you say that it is.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisdomseeker
Now let’s see.

do you say that the God of the Book of Genesis, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and of the Hebrew people (Jews) is the same God you religion teaches about?

How can there be more than One God?

Seems that I (as a Hindu) actually have more faith in monotheism than you do…

How many “gods” are there in hinduism, or, more simply, are there more than one? I see from your past posts that hindus (at least you) believe that there is an “overarching omnipotent God”, but what of those other beings you call “gods”?

But, to us, if any being who is not one of the three persons of the Holy Trinity is considered part of the Godhead, then a “god” (a “demonic presence”) has been summoned and the “worshipper” is guilty of “consorting with demons”, which is a no-no.

Do you have more than the actual three persons of the Holy Trinity as part of the Godhead? If you do you are incorrect in your theology, and we are bound to tell you so. That you don’t like our telling you that is irrelevant to our NEED to tell you a thing for your benefit.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As I have stated several times in this thread, I believe God appears (or "reveals Himself) to different people in different ways at different times.

There is only One God.

I worship a different FORM of God, but God is One, so there isn’t anyway that we worship “different gods.”

I believe I have elaborated on this elsewhere in this thread.

I am trying to say to you we might not worship the same God and you continue to jump all over the place and do not answer the questions.

there is a God not different form of God.
Buddha, hindu god, goddess of this or that and so forth…

i change my question.
do you believe that the Bible of the Jews is inspired by that One God? and do you take it to be True?

 

[Neil_LA]

How many “gods” are there in hinduism, or, more simply, are there more than one? I see from your past posts that hindus (at least you) believe that there is an “overarching omnipotent God”, but what of those other beings you call “gods”?

But, to us, if any being who is not one of the three persons of the Holy Trinity is considered part of the Godhead, then a “god” (a “demonic presence”) has been summoned and the “worshipper” is guilty of “consorting with demons”, which is a no-no.

Do you have more than the actual three persons of the Holy Trinity as part of the Godhead? If you do you are incorrect in your theology, and we are bound to tell you so. That you don’t like our telling you that is irrelevant to our NEED to tell you a thing for your benefit.

As I have said again and again… There is ONE GOD and God reveals Himself in various forms in various places and times.

You call my conception of God “a demon” (which is incredibly insulting) but you don’ t show me why your concept of God is not “demoniac” itself…

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
Those gods who are not God are idols, which usually get “inhabited” by demons, meaning they are “wants” that are very attractive “tools” for demons to use to lead men into sin.

There is only one God, but men are infinitely capable of creating infinite quantities of gods, which is the enormous danger of the “hyper-elaborative god making” which we see in the religions of the “east”.

Who’s to say that your concept of God is not a human creation?

God is to say. He has told us. We believe Him.

Only by not believing that God can “directly reveal” information to mankind (via individuals) can you argue that it’s not possible that God has simply TOLD some people what He wanted to tell them!

Who’s to say that YOUR concept of God is not of human creation? Is your concept of God given to you by God directly (via your “prophets”) or is it simply deduced from the logic inherent in natural law?

If your tradition is “directly from God” then we each have the same justification to claim what we do about the nature of God.

If that’s true, and our conceptions of God differ fundamentally, then God has given out contradictory information to different parts of mankind, which simply is not something God would do.

Therefore, one or the other of our traditions has ben given “direct revelation” from someone other than God.

Is it yours or mine?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Once again, you’re evading my question with pointless hyperbole

God can never be contradictory? I think having a person come back to life after being dead is rather contradictory…

If you see that as contradictory, more power to you!

God created us with earthly life. He’s certainly capable, as the OMNIPOTENT One, of giving life back to one of His creations!

Where is my hyperbole? I ALWAYS put that back in my toybox when I’m done playing with it, and I distinctly remember NOT bringing it to this game. Did you take my hyperbole out of my toybox? Please put it back, 'cause if I lose it, my Mom’s gonna be REALLY annoyed at me!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

CatsAndDogs;3740719:

God being composed of more than three persons is another one.

I don’t recall saying this…

That’s probably NOT what you said, but what we believe.

You gotta problem with that FACT of ours, given to us by God?

 

[Neil_LA]

God is to say. He has told us. We believe Him.

Only by not believing that God can “directly reveal” information to mankind (via individuals) can you argue that it’s not possible that God has simply TOLD some people what He wanted to tell them!

Who’s to say that YOUR concept of God is not of human creation? Is your concept of God given to you by God directly (via your “prophets”) or is it simply deduced from the logic inherent in natural law?

If your tradition is “directly from God” then we each have the same justification to claim what we do about the nature of God.

If that’s true, and our conceptions of God differ fundamentally, then God has given out contradictory information to different parts of mankind, which simply is not something God would do.

Therefore, one or the other of our traditions has ben given “direct revelation” from someone other than God.

Is it yours or mine?

We are doing nothing other than running around in circles.

I believe I compared the concept of prophet and rishi above.

This conversation isn’t getting anywhere.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

You still haven’t shown me why this is “the Truth” other than because you say that it is.

Just as YOU can’t “show” us that what you believe is “the truth”, we can’t show you either. It’s simply not possible.

If you don’t believe that we’ve been shown BY GOD His truth, there is no way for us to convince you that that is what happened.

WE aren’t even, as individuals, convinced the we believe came from God until we FIRST believe that He did, and THEN have that belief confirmed by personal experience of Him within us.

You are asking for a gift which is impossible for us, as humans, to give you. The gift comes ONLY from God, given to each of us individually.

That you haven’t, or won’t, or have no interest in, believing that which would either prove or disprove God being what He has said He is (to the Church and her people) doesn’t “give you the right” to expect to get that which is impossible for us to give to you!

OUr job is to inform you where you are wrong. It’s your job to deal with being told that you are wrong. How you deal with it is not our problem.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

There is only One God.

I worship a different FORM of God, but God is One, so there isn’t anyway that we worship “different gods.”

If you worship God in any “form” other than as God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit, then you are worshipping “something” other than God.

God does not take “forms”, only “persons”. That you don’t know that is why you are (incorrectly) allowed to overly elaborate God’s “form” (for want of a better word) into an infinitude of things.

But that’s perfectly reasonable of you. It’s not your reasoning that is faulty but only your knowledge. And to us, the reason that your ALLOWED to wander into wacky interpretations of “God-stuff phenomena” (or even noumena! ) is because of your lack of the necessary direct revelation which would keep you from that error.

This we see as “proof” that your tradition is not of the People of God, thoroughly enough at any rate, and further “proof” that your incorrect concept of God, which is extremely prone to descending into demon worship, potentially allows you to worship OTHER THAN God qua God.

You MIGHT worship a god who is not God, but we don’t actually know that with the information that we have from you at this point (though I may be wrong about our having enough info to make this determination).

 

[CatsAndDogs]

You still haven’t shown me why this is “the Truth” other than because you say that it is.

It is the truth because it is what God says is the truth.

If you don’t accept that God can directly tell us His truth, then, as I’ve said before, you don’t understand what “direct revelation” means.

If you can claim that God has directly told your tradition the truth, and we claim that God has directly told us the truth, and we have basic contradictions between our “truths”, then either one of us is wrong or God gives mankind contradictory “truths”.

Since God does not do that, one of our traditions is wrong. We claim it is yours, while you claim it is ours.

We’re on the same level, then, in this matter, according to this formulation, and neither of us is definitively capable of claiming that they are correct in their “truths”.

We believe what we believe because it is proved to us by God, AFTER we believe it. It is necessary to first HAVE a belief before it can be either confirmed of not. Since you refuse to HAVE our belief, and have it confirmed after having it, it is impossible for you to believe it.

We, just like you, can’t have someone else’s belief “proved” to them by that someone else. It must be a confirmed belief via the proper process.

Since you won’t, can’t, or whathaveyou, FIRST believe as we do and THEN get confirmation of it, or not, there is no way for you to be “shown why this is ‘the Truth’”.

It’s not our job to SHOW you anything, other than where your beliefs are incorrect. It’s your job to do with that information whatever you’re going to do with it.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

As I have said again and again… There is ONE GOD and God reveals Himself in various forms in various places and times.

I accept that you believe as you believe.

I accept that God is one, but I disagree that God reveals Himself in any other “form” than as one or more persons of the Holy Trinity.

I’m not arguing with you as to what you believe, only with the correctness of what you believe.

You call my conception of God “a demon” (which is incredibly insulting) but you don’ t show me why your concept of God is not “demoniac” itself…

I’m not saying that your concept of God is demonic, just that it’s very prone to wandering into being demon worship.

God takes no “form” other than the persons of the Holy Trinity. Any other “form” is in reality a human constructed idol, which is very attractive to demons to appropriate as a tool to corrupt that idol’s worshippers.

I’m not insulting God as you know Him, but I’m warning you of how you MIGHT be worshipping an idol, constructed by the misinterpretation of some elaboration of natural law.

To fall into the worship of idols, who are nearly certainly “backed up” by some collection of demons, while thinking that one is worshipping God, is an unfortunate and awful thing.

Your tradition “seems” to be very very prone to falling into idol worship, due to it’s lack of knowledge of when to stop constructing “forms” of the true God.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

We are doing nothing other than running around in circles.

I believe I compared the concept of prophet and rishi above.

This conversation isn’t getting anywhere.

It’s not “getting anywhere” because you won’t answer my questions.

You want me to agree with you, which I simply can’t do. And if I DON’T agree with you, you call it “going around in circles”.

I’m just interested in your telling me where I’m wrong, and me telling you where you’re wrong. I’m not interested in you agreeing with me, other than in agreeing with me to disagree about various things.

You want me to “convert”. I want you to understand. Any “conversion” is the job of the convertee, and God of course, and not a thing strived for by the converter.

If you would stop trying to convert me, and just give us things to disagree about, or ask for things for us to disagree about, we’d both get much more out of this exchange!