Christianity is Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy

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Roscoe_Turner said:
If death means “non existence” how can a person be cursed by that? You can’t curse something that doesn’t exist. You’d be cursing “nothing”.
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You have never actually sat with anybody at their death bed, have you?
The person, eventually yourself, dies.
I bet you’d curse if someone got into your bank account and it was suddenly nothing, and that is just a smallest part of your life.
 
Aloysium said:
You have never actually sat with anybody at their death bed, have you?
The person, eventually yourself, dies.
I bet you’d curse if someone got into your bank account and it was suddenly nothing, and that is just a smallest part of your life.
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Actually I’ve been at a handful of death beds. Grandparents and an Uncle. I don’t see your point. Death comes to us all. It’s not a curse just part of life. That’s not what Char II was saying though. He was saying not having eternal life was a curse. My point if you cease to exist there is no thing that is punished by tha because there is no thing. You can’t punish a non existent thing.
 
**Roscoe

You can’t punish a non existent thing.**

Of course you can’t. But you can curse a living thing by taking away its life forever.

The expectation of everlasting death, which atheists have, is a curse on his life.

The Christian expects everlasting life, which is a blessing on his life.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Roscoe

You can’t punish a non existent thing.**

Of course you can’t. But you can curse a living thing by taking away its life forever.

The expectation of everlasting death, which atheists have, is a curse on his life.

The Christian expects everlasting life, which is a blessing on his life.
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I’m not seeing your point. Death is an inevitability. We will all die.

Are you saying that two outcomes is less stressful than one? Catholics have heaven or hell where non believers only have one non exsistance. They can’t know that they no longer exist.
 
Charlemagne II:
Yes, because he did not ask us to suffer any more than he was willing to suffer for us on the cross.
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Are you familiar with the phrase: “to have a bad hair day”? 😉
Charlemagne II:
The expectation of everlasting death, which atheists have, is a curse on his life.
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No, it is just a natural consequence of reality. Without an allegedly “loving creator”, who could have done a better job, there is nothing to consider a “curse”. If there would be a truly decent, caring creator, he could have created a much better arrangement, then the vicious entrapment, so that he could curse us in this existence. One simple solution would have been not to give a command at all. Only a sadist would give a “test” that he knows the subject will fail and then curse him for failing. The admittedly imperfect US government does not allow the trickery of entrapment even to catch criminals. Did you ever wonder, why?
Charlemagne II:
The Christian expects everlasting life, which is a blessing on his life.
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That is not even true if your expectation is eternal “blessing”, and if you expect eternal torment; it is much worse than nonexistence. And Jesus supposedly said that only a few will find the way to heaven. Was Jesus wrong?
 
**Bagheera

That is not even true if your expectation is eternal “blessing”, and if you expect eternal torment; it is much worse than nonexistence.**

Yeah, dreading non-existence must be a blast. 👍😃

You don’t even get to choose between heaven and hell. You’re locked into eternal nothingness.
 
**Roscoe

They can’t know that they no longer exist. **

But while alive they must dread their coming non-existence.

And don’t tell me you don’t dread it. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Roscoe

They can’t know that they no longer exist. **

But while alive they must dread their coming non-existence.

And don’t tell me you don’t dread it. 😉
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Why?

Have you ever been knocked/choked out or anesthesized? You have no expirience of it until you awake. Many people don’t believe you when you tell them they were knocked out. There isn’t anything to be frightened of because there is no expirience.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
Why?

Have you ever been knocked/choked out or anesthesized? You have no expirience of it until you awake. Many people don’t believe you when you tell them they were knocked out. There isn’t anything to be frightened of because there is no expirience.
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Since the OP is about a psychological issue, I think it appropriate to introduce the term “dissociation”.
 
**Roscoe

Have you ever been knocked/choked out or anesthesized? You have no expirience of it until you awake. Many people don’t believe you when you tell them they were knocked out. There isn’t anything to be frightened of because there is no expirience.**

You’re missing the whole point.

It’s not death we should be afraid of. As you say, consciousness ends so there is no pain.

What you should be afraid of and dread is losing your life, a positive good, forever.

Yes, I have been anesthetized. But I had the foreknowledge of waking up.

Why do you think death is called the Grim Reaper? No waking in this life. Grim! :eek:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Roscoe

Have you ever been knocked/choked out or anesthesized? You have no expirience of it until you awake. Many people don’t believe you when you tell them they were knocked out. There isn’t anything to be frightened of because there is no expirience.**

You’re missing the whole point.

It’s not death we should be afraid of. As you say, consciousness ends so there is no pain.

What you should be afraid of and dread is losing your life, a positive good, forever.

Yes, I have been anesthetized. But I had the foreknowledge of waking up.

Why do you think death is called the Grim Reaper? No waking in this life. Grim! :eek:
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Yes, I am missing your point. Even if you go to heaven you this life is gone forever. Death is the end of this life.
 
**Roscoe

Yes, I am missing your point. Even if you go to heaven you this life is gone forever. Death is the end of this life. **

It is the end of your earthly sojourn. It is not the end of your soul. So you will not survive your death in your mind. This has to be a dreadful experience, Nature’s curse on you, taking away everything in life that matters to you.

Not so for Christians. They believe their soul does not die. They hope for everlasting life. They believe their Lord does not curse them with everlasting death, but rather invites them to everlasting life. So we are given hope, not despair, of getting out of this life alive.

As G.K. Chesterton put it:

“Religion might approximately be defined as the power which makes us joyful about the things that matter.”

The corollary is just as true:

Lack of religion may be defined as the impotent state of despairing that we can ever have everlasting joy.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Roscoe

Yes, I am missing your point. Even if you go to heaven you this life is gone forever. Death is the end of this life. **

It is the end of your earthly sojourn. It is not the end of your soul. So you will not survive your death in your mind. This has to be a dreadful experience, Nature’s curse on you, taking away everything in life that matters to you.

Not so for Christians. They believe their soul does not die. They hope for everlasting life. They believe their Lord does not curse them with everlasting death, but rather invites them to everlasting life. So we are given hope, not despair, of getting out of this life alive.

As G.K. Chesterton put it:

“Religion might approximately be defined as the power which makes us joyful about the things that matter.”

The corollary is just as true:

Lack of religion may be defined as the impotent state of despairing that we can ever have everlasting joy.
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I’m just playing devil’s advocate -

You would have no experience of the loss. There is no “you” to experience loss. It can’t be dreadful. There is no one to experience the dread nor the loss.

On the other end the Beatific Vision of Catholicism where the redeemed achieve direct communion with God. Since God is eternal (outside of time) and unchanging you won’t experience anything from your former life. It is one eternal moment of direct union experienced eternally.
 
Bagheera said:
If God would “WANT” and not just “desire” to “save us”, then all he would need to do is “want” it, and it would happen. Just like “let there be light”, “let them be saved”. Remember, it is all magic.
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This is begging the question, Bagheera.
It is all about being guilty, being inadequate; the necessity to give up our desires for obedience. The basic teaching is not about “love”, it is obedience.
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No. The basic teaching *is *about love.

Laying one’s life down is the greatest act of love.
The whole story of the “fall” was about obedience
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Yes, and about Free Will.
There was nothing wrong about “eating that imaginary apple”; the actual sin was disobedience.
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The actual sin was usurping God’s role. It was the attempt to decide for oneself what is good and bad. That is not our purview.

[T]he power to decide what is good and what is evil does not belong to man, but to God alone. The man is certainly free, inasmuch as he can understand and accept God’s commands. And he possesses an extremely far-reaching freedom, since he can eat “of every tree of the garden”. But his freedom is not unlimited: it must halt before the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, for it is called to accept the moral law given by God. In fact, human freedom finds its authentic and complete fulfilment precisely in the acceptance of that law. God, who alone is good, knows perfectly what is good for man, and by virtue of his very love proposes this good to man in the commandments. Veritatis Splendour
 
Bahman said:
What is more ironic in Christianity is the conflict between absolute love and eternal punishment at the end of time which apparently never comes true.
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I am not understanding your point. What “never comes true”? :confused:
 
The OP would only refute Christianity if by spiritually ill what was meant was mentally ill and unable to reason properly. Spiritual illness in that context I think just means sinful.
 
Roscoe_Turner said:
For clarification, Is your point that this broken human proves all humans are inherently bad?
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Is your point that Christianity proclaims that “all humans are inherently bad”?

If so, then you have been operating under a grave misapprehension, Roscoe.

That is not the teaching of Christianity. At least, not Catholicism.
 
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