Christianity is NOT a Mystical Religion

[Gab123]

So aren’t Christians better served by being engaged with their world, regular prayer, and being active in the world, participating in God’s creation? Aren’t Christians better served by staying away from mysticism, which seems to me to be driven by a desire for self-mastery, and a desire to be like God?

Obviously not everyone is called to have the prayer life of a Benedictine monk, but everyone must have a prayer life for spiritual growth. It was Jesus who commanded us to be perfect like Our Heavenly Father is perfect.

As Jesus explained, the Greatest Commandment is to love God above everything else; to love Him with all of your heart, with all of your mind, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. No half measures will do. Thus spiritual growth entails self-mastery and dying to all the things that pull us away from God; a complete turning away from the world, the flesh, and the devil, all of which are the enemies of the soul, which entice us to walk the wide road that leads away from God.

Without prayer life there is no relationship with God, yet even the devil can weasel his way into one’s prayer life, like he did with the self-righteous proud Pharisees. What’s more, even the mystics were susceptible to demonic deception, thus the need for them to have holy confessors and spiritual directors.
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Here is a good talk by Archbishop Sheen on how to pray:

 

[Tis_Bearself]

St John of the Cross wasn’t exactly disengaged from Christ.

How about you take the path that works for you, and don’t make pronouncements about the paths others choose?

But it seems to me that this orientation towards mysticism is actually an orientation away from Christ and what He did for us on Earth. It is an orientation away from this world and our brethren, towards spiritual fulfilment for ourselves. It is a retreat into our own selves in many ways.

Not in Catholicism. You’re making assumptions about something that you don’t appear to either understand, or be interested in doing yourself. This isn’t a good practice from a charitable standpoint, and not productive for you.

 

[Vico]

In contemplative prayer you are expected to leave behind thoughts, intellect, the senses and all effort. Emotions are also left behind.

So how do you know that the gaze is “fixed on Jesus”?

Furthermore, how do you explain that contemplatives from other faiths (Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.) are capable of achieving the same contemplative states?

There is effort in concentration, used in contemplation, this requires an act of will. Emotion is intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge. Emotion is not eliminated but stilled in contemplation. A Christian contemplates with the Holy Spirit so that it is a union of prayer with Christ, in a poor and humble surrender, whereas other religions or philosophies have their own specific focus.

 

[Sarcelle]

You should look at Ecclesiastes 3.

There’s a time for everything. A time to contemplate, a time to act, a time to work, a time to rest.

It’s not an either/or deal. It’s both.

Also contemplative monasteries do also emphasize manual work and production alongside contemplation and prayer.

 

[Sarcelle]

But it seems to me that this orientation towards mysticism is actually an orientation away from Christ and what He did for us on Earth. It is an orientation away from this world and our brethren, towards spiritual fulfilment for ourselves. It is a retreat into our own selves in many ways.

Remember Christ himself left his apostles to go meditate and contemplate by himself in the mountains.

Right after the baptism in the Jordan, he spent 40 days and 40 nights alone in the desert.

Should he have gotten back to his carpentry job after baptism? Would it have been more righteous of him since by your way the best path of Christianity is by being in the world?

 

[Sundiver]

Contemplation is stillness. We don’t force God to do anything. Like Jesus said, “ask and you shall receive.”
It would be helpful if you define what you mean by mysticism.

The LORD is in his holy temple; let all the earth be silent before him. Habakkuk 2:20

After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 1 Kings 19:12

Be still, and know that I am God Psalm 46:10

My heart is not proud, Lord, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me. But I have calmed and quieted myself, I am like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child I am content. Psalm 131:1-2

The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still. Exodus 14:14

Tremble and do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Psalm 4:4

For thus said the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, “In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.” Isaiah 30:15

 

[Bluebright]

Well you seem to be a bit confused here. I wont talk on other religions since I dont know them but I can tell you infused contemplation is prayer, the highest form ie direct contact with God and no one does it of their own accord, God initiates it and only when a person has been purged of all their faults and imperfections. It’s not as common as the eastern equivalent, from the sounds of it. So yes you can be ‘saved without it’ but with it, you have done your purgatory on earth and experience heaven ie union with God on earth so you can go straight to heaven. That’s why it’s so sought after. Saints practice the purgation you can do also called mortification to prepare for it. We should all be doing that at the very least.

N.b. centering prayer is not Christian, no matter what misguided people say, it’s one of those new age things slipping in.

 

[franklinstower]

I have a hard time understanding what specifically about centering prayer is not Christian. In many of the saints you find the advice to practice ejaculatory prayer which to me seems very close to what the centering prayer model calls for.

I have not delved deeply into centering prayer so could you explain specifically what they are doing that is heretical?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

So aren’t Christians better served by being engaged with their world, regular prayer, and being active in the world, participating in God’s creation?

There’s no reason for this to be true.

 

[fide]

Here are some short statements concerning Centering Prayer that I gleaned from a search of the 'net on the subject. These are from 3 sites advocating the prayer, I think:

– Centering Prayer emphasizes prayer as a personal relationship with God and as a movement beyond conversation with Christ to communion with Him.
– Centering Prayer is a receptive method of silent prayer that prepares us to receive the gift of contemplative prayer, prayer in which we experience God’s presence within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than consciousness itself.
– In Centering Prayer you choose a word, sometimes called a prayer word, sometimes called a sacred word, that expresses your desire to be in an intimate relationship with God. This word says you intend to enter that secret room of communion with God. It is not a time for thinking or for words but for presence.

In my longer studies of centering prayer, the middle statement is probably the one motivation for centering prayer that is closest to being “a good reason.” To prepare oneself for the precious gift of authentic infused contemplation is a noble intention. The trouble with using centering prayer to do this, however, is that it is bad advice. There is a way to prepare oneself for the precious gift of authentic infused contemplation! But this is not it. At best it is an imprudent and premature desire to find a “short cut” to spiritual maturity; it does not work. There is no short cut to intimate communion with God.

There are two main categories of prayer: ascetical prayer and mystical prayer.
Ascetical prayer is prayer we can do with ordinary [sanctifying] grace: vocal prayer (formula or spontaneous) - leading into discursive meditation - leading into affective meditation - leading into increasingly simplified meditation - leading into the prayer of simplicity.

Ascetical prayer, prayed well and fruifully, prepares us for mystical prayer.

Mystical prayer is all gift. We cannot “do” mystical prayer; we can only be the recipient of the gift of it. God does it, it is His to give. Mystical prayer also has grades - grades of increasing completeness of union, contemplative mystical union, with God.

Centering prayer was at its best an extension of “the prayer of simplicity” - the threshold before the door of contemplation, mystical prayer. At worst, and I think commonly taught prematurely, it was an attempt to short-cut the steps and stages of ascetical prayer, and skipping them altogether. But spiritual maturation of the soul does not admit such short-cuts. The result of trying to jump straight into contemplation is somewhat like trying to jump into marriage from the first date - having no real knowledge of, or familiarity with, one’s intended spouse. It invites falling back deeper into self-love, instead of jumping ahead into true agape love with the Other.

 

[franklinstower]

I cannot see anything short of very good about the 3 motivations for centering prayer. I also cannot see the necessity in your position and interpretation of what it does to a soul to begin centering prayer early. Could you elaborate on the specific damage it could do?

Having known countless people who have used centering prayer (which is not a new approach if you take ejaculatory prayer into account) and also people who use the traditional method, as my spiritual advisor does, I cannot personally see any difference that would qualify as negative in those that do centering prayer.

I think of it rather like this.

The monks and nuns have marked the way for us. They have preserved the contemplative dimension of prayer and the very sacred places that this prayer can lead too. However they had one advantage-- they had hours and hours to spend in prayer every day. It would be quite difficult to miss the contemplative dimension of prayer for a person spending 3 hours a day in it!

On the other hand many people who are working and raising children cannot spend hours and hours a day and may not accidentally stumble upon those states even though they are close to them and near them. Centering prayer seems to me to be a very direct way of noticing what God is already infusing into the soul and so I see it as very good.

I like your thoughts about the previous stages being very important though and not replaced by centering prayer as each stage brings about a kind of good that the others do not.

The other observation I would make is that many people are called into contemplative states very early in the prayer life and being told to do the first two stages first can be as harmful to them as jumping straight into centering prayer could be were one to do that exclusively.

I should mention that for me the best “method” for entering into contemplation is either the Lords prayer or the Rosary. I do not practice centering prayer, although just saying the word Jesus over and over is something I sometimes do… so I guess that is centering prayer if we are to be technical about it.

I can understand a particular person being drawn not to do it but I cannot yet understand the specific reasons why some consider it heretical or new age… I would love to them

I can tell you that there is a world of difference between what someone in the New Age is doing and what a catholic is doing who practices centering prayer. They are worlds apart for lots and lots of reasons.

 

[goout]

The other thing about engaging with God’s creation is, literally everything that exists is created by God.
That includes your intellect and imagination, dreams, experiences, feelings, emotions.
Don’t reduce “creation” to the material world.
Praying and communing with God in the heart is engaging the created world just like helping at the soup kitchen is engaging the created world.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Nice thread. A lot of it reads like the pdf by Lehodey - The Ways of Mental Prayer.

 

[tstadheim]

Nor do you find any mention of contemplative prayer, trying to block out the senses and the intellect to reach the Divine Darkness or any such mentions in the Bible. You certainly find them in Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite

If contemplative practice is such an essential part of Christianity, such that it is its very apex, why don’t you find it in the Bible?

“The Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay answers all this and more, about St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross and St. Paul.

 

[ragus93]

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far I really appreciate all of your (name removed by moderator)uts on this topic, and it has been very productive so far. I will do my best to answer all the posts addressed to me in due time, but to do justice to everything you have all written will take a while, so please have some patience with me.

On a very general note. A few people have said that the term “mysticism” is not sufficiently defined, and even more that without mysticism there is no knowing God.

So let me clarify a few things. By “mysticism” I am not referring to the mystery of the Eucharist, or to those mysterious moments when, for example, we look at a beautiful landscape and see God as the animating force that holds the world together, or moments when we’d have a vision of Christ, etc.

I attempt to refer solely to what W.T. Stace calls “introverted mysticism” (which he calls the main form of mysticism too) in his Mysticism and Philosophy book (scribd[.]com/doc/70165808/W-T-Stace-Mysticism-and-Philosophy-Whole-Book). Below the section which describes the differences between “extroverted” and “introverted” mysticism.

see screenshot here ibb[.]co/dM9wPPg (remove the [] brackets - it doesn’t let me post without them)

Basically, my claim is that the mysticism that sees God as separate and active in the world is Christian. Think about people like G.K. Chesterton - they are very lively, optimistic, and see God in everything. They love life, dancing, being active. You wouldn’t imagine Chesterton sitting down to do contemplative prayer.

So extroverted mysticism, I have nothing against. Why not? Because it still sees God as separate from the self, and there is nothing one can do - no activity - that can bring it about. It really is a gift from God. Even W.T. Stace admits that extroverted mysticism is very rare (in comparison to introverted mysticism). There is no way that you can become an extroverted mystic. Nothing you can practice. Nothing you can try. It just happens.

My issue is with introverted mysticism and particularly with contemplative practice. It’s not that I’m not interested in it, but rather that I really see a problem with it, and I want to find out if it’s just me, or there really is a problem there. I wouldn’t want to miss out on a way that God intends for us, after all.

So what issue do I see with introverted mysticism and contemplative practice?

1. The withdrawal from the world into the self, and the discovery of God, “the divine spark” inside the soul. This withdrawal seems to be an escape from the world, rather than participation in the world. Remember that God created man to be a co-creator, a participant within Creation, in the image of God.
2. The fact that contemplative practice can bring about this mystical experience. Typically, introverted mysticism doesn’t just happen by itself… the person must follow a certain practice beforehand - contemplative prayer.

 

[ragus93]

1. The fact that the experience of contemplation CAN and IS achieved by non-Christians. This is simply an undeniable fact. If you read a few books which detail mystical experiences, and you compare descriptions of a Hindu having a mystical experience, and a Buddhist, and a Christian, you will definitely see similarities - in fact, very close similarities. So if one says that this is an experience of Christ, and the other an experience of Nirvana, it seems very likely that the two mystics are using different terms to describe the same experiential reality. After all, words are merely symbols, they are not the reality itself. So how is a Christian going to explain this? God shows Himself to people who engage in contemplative practice, regardless of their other beliefs? And if God does indeed show Himself to others too, why is Christ at all necessary? Didn’t Jesus say that no one reaches the Father except through Him? How can they know Jesus if they’re not Christians? Are we to join with Karl Rahner and call them anonymous Christians? en.wikipedia[.]org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian (remove [ ] brackets it doesn’t let me post links)

The only thing about mystical experience that Christianity “gets” that other religions like Buddhism don’t is that the person who has had a mystical experience and a direct vision of the Godhead isn’t infallible and can still sin. This is unlike in Buddhism, where quite often regular moral rules don’t apply to the Guru, since once enlightenment is achieved, it is permanent. Instead, Christianity preaches that “by their fruits ye shall know them”.

 

[franklinstower]

This is simply untrue and has been greatly exaggerated in popular culture. I have been steeped in contemplative experience from the Christian tradition for 25 years and have known many people from various eastern religions. I started for a short period of time from the eastern perspective and approach. There are similarities but there are VERY important and significant differences. Too many to mention here.

One massive difference between Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism respectively is that for the Christian there is always an I Thou relationship. It is the soul experiencing union with a loving God. It is two being brought into union in God’s love.

In the Buddhist approach there is no I Thou. In fact for them as long as there is an I Thou relationship you have not reached the highest place. They also do not have a relationship with God as they do not believe in God or the self for that matter. IF there is a self or a God for the self to interact with it is not enlightenment.

For the Hindu (generally speaking as it is a vast religion) There is no lower self but there is an expense of the higher self in union with a Non Personal, that is to say Impersonal God-- it is something rather than someone…

The quality and flavor of these three experiences is quite different and to say that they are the same is not an accurate statement.

Other important differences have to do with the accent being one of skill (eastern approaches) with that of the Christian approach which is by way of relationship with a loving God through unmerited grace.

The boots on the ground experience of these two differences is also very large and very palpable in many way. So different as to make them incompatible on many fronts.

It is largely the work of Joseph Campbell that brought about the false understanding that all religions were taling about essentially the same experience but couched in different cultural and religious contexts.

Also. My spiritual advisor is a Trappist Monk-- he was never prescribed certain special practices to become a contemplative. It is the natural progression of a deep prayer life and has been present since the earliest times of Christianity.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

This withdrawal seems to be an escape from the world, rather than participation in the world. Remember that God created man to be a co-creator, a participant within Creation, in the image of God.

Prayer is a participation.

 

[ragus93]

One massive difference between Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism respectively is that for the Christian there is always an I Thou relationship. It is the soul experiencing union with a loving God. It is two being brought into union in God’s love.

In the Buddhist approach there is no I Thou. In fact for them as long as there is an I Thou relationship you have not reached the highest place. They also do not have a relationship with God as they do not believe in God or the self for that matter. IF there is a self or a God for the self to interact with it is not enlightenment.

For the Hindu (generally speaking as it is a vast religion) There is no lower self but there is an expense of the higher self in union with a Non Personal, that is to say Impersonal God-- it is something rather than someone…

These are just different linguistic ways to describe the experience. What is an “I-Thou” relationship (to steal Buber’s terminology), but a way to describe what is fundamentally (and to this Christian, Buddhist or Hindu will agree) an ineffable experience, which cannot be contained by language? What is “God”? What is “Personal”? Sure, in Christianity God is “Personal”, but He is NOT Personal the way you are personal. Mystics are apophatics - apophatics know that we can only say what God is NOT, not what He is.

Certainly both the Hindu, Christian and Buddhist experience “peace beyond understanding”, “bliss”, a “beatific vision”, “holiness”, etc. If we take each one and ask them, this is what they will say. So if the experience is indeed different, then what is the Buddhist experiencing in Christian terms, and why does he see it as so good?

Yes, if you describe the mystical experience to a Buddhist as an “I-Thou” experience, with the soul experiencing union with a loving God he’ll say that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course! He’s translating that into very different concepts than you are.

Buddhists would describe it as “emptiness”, anatta, no-self. And yet, Buddha made it clear that Nirvana is NOT mere nothingness. It is a divine nothingness, a fruitful nothingness, there is something there which appears as nothing to regular consciousness and cannot be put into language, but is NOT actually mere nothingness when seen from the other side. Furthermore, Buddhists would agree with the doctrine of grace - sure, you have to practice meditation, and all that, but ultimately, the desire for enlightenment itself must be dropped, since that would be holding back your progress. So it is a letting go, not a controlling something. You don’t reach enlightenment because of your aptitude.

So I disagree with you that the experience is at bottom different. It makes no sense for the experience to be different. If it really is, why the beauty, why the goodness, why the peace that is shared? And what meaning would such different experiences which nevertheless share key characterstics have? If these are not experiences of God, what are they then? Experiences of demons?

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

“in a certain sense all theology is mystical, inasmuch as it shows forth the divine mystery: the data of revelation…the eastern tradition never made a sharp distinction between mysticism and theology, between personal experience of the divine mysteries and the dogma affirmed by the Church.”–Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church

Forgive me, but the witness of the Saints, the history of the Church, very much points to Christianity as the Mystical Religion par excellence. There are simply levels of participation that each are called to, not everyone is called to be a Martha sitting in contemplation at the feet of the Divine Master, but everyone is called to put aside their serving for a time to be with Him to Whom all service is given.

Eastern religions may have a veneer of similarity to Christian contemplation/theoria, but what they behold is different, for their conception of God does not stem from the unadulterated spring of the Orthodox/Catholic Faith. There is also great spiritual danger in ascending too quickly up the ladder of virtues to Divine Vision. For we also have spiritual enemies apart from our own unhealed passions. The demons take the form of angels of light and easily deceive the beginning ascetic. There is a spiritual war going on, and in the weakness of our present age, when so many of us are desperate for spirituality, we confuse poisoned water with the Lifegiving Spring that Christ promises His faithful. Hinduism is the worship of demons, while Buddhism is spiritual suicide according to St. Sophrony of Essex. Read more from Him here:

ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY THEN AND NOW: Elder Sophrony: On Eastern Religions

Good books to read would be The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Unseen Warfare, and The Gurus, the Young Man and Elder Paisios.