Christianity is NOT a Mystical Religion

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fide said:
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franklinstower:
Innovations is a welcome aspect of Christian history.
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I think you have hit the modern cultural nail on the head, with this statement. The desire to innovate - to believe that we can improve on the wisdom of those before us, that we can do it better - is, I believe, (in the matter of spirituality) the recipe for staying on a merry-go-round and imagining that we’re finally getting somewhere.

I find that the interior life - the interior life of the Spirit within the baptized - has a normal path of development toward its intended end, or maturity. This normal path follows the sequence of the general categories of normal human growth and development: childhood, adolescence, adulthood.

In our normal human development, it would be absurd to think that we could step out of a confused, incompleted (or even dysfunctional) childhood, skip adolescence altogether, and decide to simply “be” a normal adult because we would like to be one, and now. So it is also, I have come to see, with the normal development of the life of prayer (communion with God, or “spiritual maturity”). There are stages of development: beginning, intermediate, perfect or mature. To “innovate” with this process is an invitation to waste much time. Better to heed the wisdom of the saints.

But - each person must live his own life.
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I think the virtue you describe here is humility; a realistic and active acceptance of your spiritual state. By active acceptance of your spiritual state we mean that humble acceptance grounds one in reality and is the only place from which movement can happen.
Grasping forward for spiritual adornments that aren’t proper to your state doesn’t work.

And while I think it’s proper to say that everyone trying to know Christ is a mystic whether they like it or not, there is also a disturbing movement to leap into advanced spiritual practices that we are simply not ready for. When I read about catechists leading high school kids into contemplative prayer I cringe a little.
 
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ragus93

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I am 100% certain that the experiences are different. It is certainly not a matter of interpretation and language. Buddhism as perhaps you know has an incredibly refined system of thought and language and tests to ensure that what you are experiencing is precisely what they intend for you to come to. They are really really good at this. It is not possible that there would be a misunderstanding between a lineage holder and an honest student.

I can tell you that for certain what was happening to me did not fit that tradition and I was told so very frankly and honestly

This is what began my serious search into Christianity and how I found Catholicism because some part of me understood that it was Christ who was influencing me and that it was NOT a fit into my all religion are the same mindset that I held at that time.

Yes Bede Griffiths (who goes too far for me in seeing a similarity between religions BTW) did see Saccitananda as a less developed and less accurate experience of the Trinity. The word means being knowledge and bliss and if anyone cannot see the similarities between that and the trinity they are not looking.

However there is a WORLD of difference between seeing the trinity as an impersonal force and seeing the Trinity as a loving God who wants to being you into union with itself. If you have studied any theology at all you know that this change in perception changes EVERYTHING, every prayer, every attempt at meditation, every act in life, nothing is left unaffected by this difference.

And if you are christian, as I am, then the difference is cataclysmic in scale!! For us eternal life is knowing God, the personal God. Eternal life is sharing in the life of God through his Son Jesus who is the second person of the Trinity incarnate. Spirituality is relationship with God.

Relationship is the reason we don’t need a laundry list of difficult and highly developed techniques for entering into contemplative states. You need those when what you are after does not know you or love you… But we come into union with God through Gods love and intention and not through skill or good karma, we come on through grace…

The entire endeavour feels different on the ground and is different in profound ways.

I attend a weekly bible study and contemplative prayer group and once in a while someone from the New Age or from an eastern perspective will attend and every once in a while they will stay permanently.

The shift they must go through to get what we have is pretty radical and it takes a while. The gearing of their meditation approach often makes them unable to feel the Holy Spirit in the room. They sit up way too straight, and whatever highly attentive technique they are using serves only to block out the silence of God with a kind of noise. They are looking for a totally different spirit that Christ and what is in the room.

We are coming in on Grace by way of sincerity and the power of Christ the saviour.
 
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goout said:
When I read about catechists leading high school kids into contemplative prayer I cringe a little.
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I cringe a lot when I hear of any catechist “leading” anyone “into contemplative prayer.” The reaction in me is similar to the cringe within, when I hear of protestant evangelizers “leading” someone “to believing on Christ” and thus “getting them saved”. We can walk with another (if we are in Christ) to the threshold of saving faith - and we can walk with another, ascending the mountain of prayer to heights that we ourselves have attained - but we cannot “give salvation” to another, nor “lead another into” contemplative prayer.

The grace of faith unto salvation, and the grace of contemplation, are gifts of God “not because of works, lest any man should boast” - as St. Paul wrote of the former.

Much of this grief in me comes from the confusing of others by poor catechesis - a blurring of the distinction between “infused contemplation” (totally gift, supernatural, mystical, requiring extraordinary grace) and what is something actually acquired (whether called acquired recollection, acquired contemplation, or the [acquired] prayer of simplicity - prayer which is in the category of ascetical (not mystical) prayer which can be attained by anyone in the ordinary grace of Baptism).

Experienced and knowledgeable catechists can lead and guide others in the way of Christian prayer illuminated by Saints - but only so far, and only in and with His holy grace. But the grace and gift of infused contemplation in a soul depends on God first and last, and the seeking disciple, patient and hungry, waiting upon Him.
 
I stay away from mysticism for now because I’m a new Catholic, and I have a lot of work to do on basic morals and character building, which are requirements of mystics.
 
Mysticism is what heals those moral defects and character flaws too though. For some people with deeply seated disorder it can be the ONLY way healing takes place. By mysticism I just mean real time spent in prayer daily.
 
ragus93 said:
what He did for us on Earth. It is an orientation away from this world and our brethren, towards spiritual fulfilment for ourselves. It is a retreat into our own selves in many ways.

And while many of Christianity’s mystics would portray mysticism as the apex of Christianity, I think it is merely a diversion.
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I think you have the motivations of most mystics backwards. Mystics seperate themselves from the world in order to pray for it. Sure, they want to be closer to God, but that is not their primary reason. If anyone became a mystic for selfish reasons, they would be miserable living in a monastery or hermitage.

Besides a very devout and pious faith, the number one characteristic of mystics is their love of others and their wish to pray for the souls of others. Their main goal is to unite their prayers with Jesus in order to save the souls of those who are not close enough to Him.

I pray this helps.
 
If I sit in a chair and just intentionally place myself in God’s presence for a short period of time, is that good to do? Is that “mysticism”?
 
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To the OP, John Paul II was a Carmelite fan, rosary pray-er, and administrive/practical leader all at the same time. I doubt he’d agree with you on mysticism. He was known to carry the works of the mystics around with him.
 
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I dont have much time just now but I wanted to mention sometiing else that has not come up about contemplative prayer and why someone would want to be brought into it.

It heals dissorder. It heals pyschological dissorder and it heals emotoinal dissorder too. I am lucky enough to be witness to this on an ongoing basis. I know people what have been broken by the sin in the world in profound ways and prayer can heal it and bring order to the chaos.

It can work in concert with therapy (there is no competition) but more often than not I see it working outside of those areas and it is profound.

More than anything I think this aspect of the prayer life and the mystical life goes unnoticed, untrusted and undiscovered. It works, it takes time but it works.

Everyone should spend more time in prayer and the Rosary is a really good place to start IME.
 
I think it’s both - all Christians are called to a life of prayer because through prayer we come to know Him more & more. Some however are REALLY united to Him in prayer - a gift to some. We are all called to light in the darkness of our world, but some are called to very great tasks - even to martyrdom at times. Even the Apostles had acknowledged the different vocations when selecting men as deacons:

From Acts 6 (BiblHub):

https://biblehub.com/niv/acts/6.htm

The Choosing of the Seven

1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews a among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables .

3 Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them .

4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word .”

5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
 
Sorry for not answering earlier. I missed a part of your text. I did not understand your question about advaita.

The best starter if you want a serious overview of the Christian mystical tradition and how it relates to the early writings of the Church, Catholicism, and the Eastern Christian Church I would recommend “The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church” by Vladimir Loskey.

This will give you a wonderful background in Christian mysticism from the Eastern Church’s perspective contrasted with Catholicism and a bunch of greek forms of spirituality also.

You will come away with a deep appreciation of the unique character of Christian mysticism after reading this book. It is a difficult book to read for some people though but still worth it even in you have to take it slow.
 
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franklinstower said:
I dont have much time just now but I wanted to mention sometiing else that has not come up about contemplative prayer and why someone would want to be brought into it.

It heals dissorder. It heals pyschological dissorder and it heals emotoinal dissorder too. I am lucky enough to be witness to this on an ongoing basis. I know people what have been broken by the sin in the world in profound ways and prayer can heal it and bring order to the chaos.

It can work in concert with therapy (there is no competition) but more often than not I see it working outside of those areas and it is profound.

More than anything I think this aspect of the prayer life and the mystical life goes unnoticed, untrusted and undiscovered. It works, it takes time but it works.

Everyone should spend more time in prayer and the Rosary is a really good place to start IME.
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Yes the rosary, the divine mercy, and other repetitive prayers are gateways to deeper communion with God. And unfortunately much of the mystical movement seems to see “rote prayer” as something lesser.
I know a couple of quiet, pious, rosary praying folks who are probably sitting right at the hem of His garment.
 
Yes all of this talk of centering prayer is fine and dandy but Ill take the Rosary any day. I cant even make it through more than a few decades without being absorbed into God’s power and falling into a really deep healing rest.

Mary is wonderful.
 
ragus93 said:
So if one says that this is an experience of Christ,
and the other an experience of Nirvana,
it seems very likely that the two mystics
are using different terms
to describe the same
experiential reality.
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They do not…

I have a friend, a wildlife rehab person - Went to a class on eastern meditation - Instructor commented that while the rest of the class were learning about the spiritual practices, she was doing them… By the end of the class, she had attained Nirvana… Total dispassion… Nothing could disturb her… She sat around a lot, stayed at home, could not hold a job, and stared a lot at nothing… She was in her early 20s, as I recall…

And a Greek Orthodox man visited the family one day, and when he greeted her, he was taken aback, and stopped, and knelt, and he asked her: “What in the world is going on with you?” (for she was an emotional flat-liner) And she told him how she had gone to the class, attained Nirvana, and was trapped there and could not escape… That she had been like this for two years… He went to his Priest and they had her freed in a few days, and the two were married later, and are married to this day…

So the two states are not the same - The similarity is that they do indeed have spiritual access to spiritual states… The difference is that one is an encounter with our loving God, and the other is an encounter with demonic forces…

Spirits need to be tested, and by their fruits they will be known…

There is both Good and evil in this world…

geo
 
franklinstower said:
Yes Bede Griffiths (who goes too far for me in seeing a similarity between religions BTW) did see Saccitananda as a less developed and less accurate experience of the Trinity. The word means being knowledge and bliss and if anyone cannot see the similarities between that and the trinity they are not looking.

However there is a WORLD of difference between seeing the trinity as an impersonal force and seeing the Trinity as a loving God who wants to being you into union with itself. If you have studied any theology at all you know that this change in perception changes EVERYTHING, every prayer, every attempt at meditation, every act in life, nothing is left unaffected by this difference.
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Okay, I guess my next question to you is what would the Saccitananda be an experience of according to you? Is it an experience of the Trinity? And if so, why can’t the Hindu mystics go beyond it to the experience of love included in the Christian revelation?
franklinstower said:
I attend a weekly bible study and contemplative prayer group and once in a while someone from the New Age or from an eastern perspective will attend and every once in a while they will stay permanently.

The shift they must go through to get what we have is pretty radical and it takes a while. The gearing of their meditation approach often makes them unable to feel the Holy Spirit in the room. They sit up way too straight, and whatever highly attentive technique they are using serves only to block out the silence of God with a kind of noise. They are looking for a totally different spirit that Christ and what is in the room.
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Right - well I would say that the “discipline” found in Eastern practices is an obstacle in their own practice in the end. According to Buddhism at least, until you let go of the discipline and the desire for enlightenment, you cannot achieve it. It is the difference between ego-based attention to the present and the choiceless awareness that is the goal of eastern meditative practice.

Now to discuss some metaphysical issues. Theoretically, if mysticism works, then certainly going deep into the present moment and shedding the ego should allow contact with God to be possible, regardless of religion. The reason why I’m making this claim is because God is the foundation of reality, so if one were to go to the very bottom, God would be there.

I agree that the “depth” of the relationship can differ, but I don’t see contact as impossible to non-Christians if mysticism works. What is your take?
 
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George720 said:
I have a friend, a wildlife rehab person - Went to a class on eastern meditation - Instructor commented that while the rest of the class were learning about the spiritual practices, she was doing them… By the end of the class, she had attained Nirvana… Total dispassion… Nothing could disturb her… She sat around a lot, stayed at home, could not hold a job, and stared a lot at nothing… She was in her early 20s, as I recall…

And a Greek Orthodox man visited the family one day, and when he greeted her, he was taken aback, and stopped, and knelt, and he asked her: “What in the world is going on with you?” (for she was an emotional flat-liner) And she told him how she had gone to the class, attained Nirvana, and was trapped there and could not escape… That she had been like this for two years… He went to his Priest and they had her freed in a few days, and the two were married later, and are married to this day…

So the two states are not the same - The similarity is that they do indeed have spiritual access to spiritual states… The difference is that one is an encounter with our loving God, and the other is an encounter with demonic forces…

Spirits need to be tested, and by their fruits they will be known…

There is both Good and evil in this world…

geo
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I agree with you, but the thing here is to distinguish eastern religions from New Age occult practices. They are not the same. I wouldn’t say eastern religions are demonic - God must have revealed Himself in all corners of the world, and we expect to find, more or less accurate “signs” scattered across the globe and across religions.
phil19034 said:
If this is what you are looking at, it doesn’t look very Catholic. This looks very New Age like. Esp when looking at the other links at [www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII]

So if this is what you view as “Mystical,” then I would agree with you. Christians don’t practice things like yoga in order to reach mystical enlightenment.
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Well the book that I linked to is written by Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, a Christian mystic, and perhaps the foundational source of early Christian mysticism.

The other works on the website aren’t really relevant, I was just pointing to that specific book, which is an example of Christian mysticism, and not New Age.
 
You are going “into”; but not into yourself, but into the unknown, and then you are just allowing God’s love to come upon you. Your only action really is that of “realization” of God’s presence of his love for you, so no busyiness, actually the opposite, just extreme stillness/quiet. Meditation is so necessary as this world is such a distracting place. Meditating on God’s love is actually the very least amount of action required on your part. It isn’t something that you do it’s actually you becoming so small and nearly inconsequential and then allowing God’s love to come over you.
If such an excercise gains one intimacy with God, that light is shared on another kind of level " a deeper" level one without words perhaps with others and the world.
 
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