Christianity is NOT a Mystical Religion

[Shakuhachi]

Some things are far beyond words and even our ability to understand. And so we interpret as best we can that deep down foundation of our existence. Whether it is personal or impersonal, for example, is an interpretation and it may change.

I love Fr Bede and also Sri Aurobindo.

 

[franklinstower]

To your fist question about sacchitaansa.

Short answer is yes I do think the Hindus are touching the outer light of the Trinity but it is very external in the sense that none of them report it being a personal “touch” by a God who knows and loves. Like the part Bede spoke of it is an experience in wisdom but not in Love which is the heart of God.

In Christianity the Holy Spirit is said to sometimes hide its personhood so that it can reveal yours to you. Many eastern mystics say that when reading Christian theology they can relate to the Holy Spirit but not the Father or the Son. Tic Nat Han said something similar.

I think the Hindu penetration is a partial one and that leads to your second question of "Why can they not go any further’? The answer is bad theology. Theology has a profound impact on ones mysticism. It should not go unnoticed that it took thousands of years for God to prepare a people to receive Christ, God’s ultimate revelation. And then it took a few hundred years for Christianity to deal with how to even describe what the Trinity is in language that is sufficient to point the way… and that was further refined by apophaticism and the insistence that you arrive more truly at God by statement that say what God is not rather than what God is.

This is all really good theology-- truth even.

This all happened under the direction and influence of God in humanity through prophets and saints over time to change people’s thinking about God.

The Hindu theology tells them that Sacchitananda is as far as you can go and that there is no further to go… so they dont look and they miss it. Theology has a profound effect on spirituality and serves to focus it, correct it and limit it within bounds that are accurate. When theology is accurate that is a great thing and when it is inaccurate, or partial, or dead wrong, it is a terrible thing.

I failed to mention the Sushumna which in the same revelation is the “Golden Man” who has never incarnated but through whom you must pass to get to Sacchidananda. When Bede and others went to India they were convinced that the Sushumna, like Sacchidananda was a partially accurate intuition for the Logos-- the Son of God and ultimately Jesus Christ-- the full revelation of God for humanity.

What is missing from the Hindu revelation is a lot, but it IS compatible with some adjustments and refinements to the Christian revelation.

Lastly I will say that one seemingly small difference in the way you perceive God effects every single thought and action all the way down through your life… it really, really matters that we have accurate theology and we are very lucky to have the Revelation of the Bible and most especially of Christ’s life and teachings and most importantly the relationship with him that we are invited into.

 

[franklinstower]

^^^^^^^^

Here is a maxim from the Eastern Christian Church. Strive to listen for and notice Gods presence at all times. Never try to make it any different than it is and never try to make it any more or less intense than it is.

I came from eastern approaches and New Age in the beginning and I can tell you that this short maxim rocked my world and revealed that almost every thing I has ever learned was in conflict with receiving a loving God in the way God wanted to present itself to me.

I was wrecking it all along and did not even know it. All of my breathing techniques and visualization techniques and intentions amounted to rebellion once I saw the truth of this maxim and the personal God that it logically relates with.

 

[George720]

The thing here is to distinguish eastern religions from New Age occult practices.
They are not the same.

Are you making a point here? Make your distinguishing features that differ and draw your conclusion… I showed you an example of a western class in the eastern practice of attaining Nirvanna, and how it was demonstrably demonic in the person who succeeded, and her escape via a personal relationship with a Greek who found her trapped there… Your reply that eastern religions are different from New Age occult practices does not seem to address the issue of Good vs evil in spiritual events…

The point of my story is that she was easily snagged in that praxis, for it is not a praxis that calls on the Name of the Lord… Nor are ANY of the praxes of any of the eastern religions, unless you know one that calls on the Christian God???

I wouldn’t say eastern religions are demonic -

Do they call on the Name of the Lord?
Have you ever been a Chela?

God must have revealed Himself in all corners of the world, and we expect to find, more or less accurate “signs” scattered across the globe and across religions.

My brother, this is wishful thinking…

Theoretically, if mysticism works, then certainly going deep into the present moment and shedding the ego should allow contact with God to be possible, regardless of religion. The reason why I’m making this claim is because God is the foundation of reality, so if one were to go to the very bottom, God would be there.

What happens is that one opens one’s self to all spiritual forces - And remember the first heaven will pass away… Entering into the discipling of the Body of Christ prevents the demonic forces from entering the disciple in obedience to the Faith of Christ… There is no such ‘protection’ when one simply takes one’s self to zero and accepts whatever spiritual events come forth, on the theory that "They must be God, because I went ALL THE WAY to the bottom…

Such a practice will end the person following it into the communion of the demoniacs… And Exorcism will be the only way out…

geo

 

[EndTimes]

No amount of contemplative prayer, centering, etc. can bring about contact with God. Contact with God cannot be forced by one’s own will through a series of contemplative activities. Rather it is freely given, when and how God wants.

To keep it short, I tend to agree…
That said, the FAITH which JESUS speaks of -
Goes a long way with opening the Door to God’s Guiding Spirit

 

[po18guy]

Given this fact why are more and more Christians becoming interested in contemplative practice, contemplative prayer and mysticism as the “height” of Christianity?

Reverse that! Since the so-called reformation, the richness and depth of the Christian faith has systematically been discarded. I say to turn your question around: Why is so much of modern Christianity devoid of richness and beauty? Why is it now simply a thought process where you “invite Jesus into your heart”? Our Lord NEVER taught that.

 

[EndTimes]

I say to turn your question around: Why is so much of modern Christianity devoid of richness and beauty?

What are you referring to w/richness and beauty?

 

[franklinstower]

Saying Jesus never taught to invite Jesus into our hearts is a bit misleading I think. Jesus did say that the the trinity would come and live inside of us, make their tent in us and be one with us as He is one with the Father.

From that perspective its a bit of a stretch to try to imply there is anything unchristian about asking God to dwell in your heart… you would basically be asking God to do what the seconds person of the trinity said it would do…

 

[Ilkka]

My personal opinion/understanding is that people experience their walk with God differently. For some people, their walk in the faith involves more ‘mystical’ experiences while others may experience God and spirituality in more practical ways. After all, mysticism is defined as the intended practices to experience closeness and directness in relation with God and spirituality.

Many things in the Catholic faith are actually full of mysticism. Even praying the Holy Rosary is intended for tending one’s whole being towards a closer relationship with God. So is the Holy Eucharist, too, as it invites the faithful to direct contact with the flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ (blessed be his name). I’m not saying that a certain amount of closeness defines salvation but being close to God is certainly going to help with whatever life or Satan throw at you; be it hardship or temptation. Some people are very content and can easily set practical lines to follow in their lives and for some a more mystical, personal experience is needed to lead a godly life.

The Catholic faith invites all people from all walks of life, from all personality groups, from all cultures and traditions and each and every person brings with them the good they have. This becomes the beautiful richness of diversity within the Holy Catholic (universal) Church.

As with everything else, the line between godly mysticism and sinful mysticism needs to be drawn, however. A mystic that gains personal insight into godly things must NEVER accept any experience that goes against the Holy Scriptures or the Holy Tradition. Within the confinements of the mentioned two, mystical experiences can enliven the spiritual life and mature one towards perfection and holiness.

 

[ragus93]

Great reply, I think I agree with all that.

I’d be interested to know more about how one’s theology relates to one’s mysticism, especially in the actual practice of mysticism (ie, contemplative prayer). How does, say a Christian’s theology change the contemplative practice vs a Buddhist theology in terms of how it changes vipassana practice?

In short, I guess my next question would be how important is theology to mysticism and what is the relationship between the two?

(By the way, the discussions with your brother have been very enlightening, I appreciate your time and responses. Thank you)

 

[ragus93]

Are you making a point here?

Sure. Eastern practices are NOT about dulling the mind, whereas the focus in New Age practices and hypnotism is going into a trance, and trying to dull the mind as much as possible such that it is no longer capable of making judgements.

The focus in Eastern mysticism is on becoming more alert, more conscious, more present. A conscious and fully alert mind can make judgements but it no longer identifies (ie attaches) to them. If anything, this would make demonic possession harder, not easier.

I showed you an example of a western class in the eastern practice of attaining Nirvanna, and how it was demonstrably demonic in the person who succeeded, and her escape via a personal relationship with a Greek who found her trapped there… Your reply that eastern religions are different from New Age occult practices does not seem to address the issue of Good vs evil in spiritual events…

I don’t know the specifics of the “western class” meant to attain Nirvana. This would be seen in a negative light though by any real practitioner of Buddhism. Nirvana isn’t easy to “attain” - people become monks and spend their entire lives trying to reach Nirvana, and most of them don’t. It’s not something that you can go to a class and suddenly achieve in a short while.

 

[ragus93]

So because of that, I think that what your acquaintance attended was really a New Age class which used Buddhist/Eastern terminology, but followed quite different methods. The point of eastern meditation is not to dull the mind. It’s not an effort to get “nothing to disturb you” because you can’t feel anything anymore. If you do an MRI scan of the brains of Buddhist monks you will see that they feel emotions stronger than regular people, but they are less reactive. What this means is that the gap between stimulus and reaction is wider for them, so they can choose how to react, rather than follow regular automatisms. So dispassion, or apatheia (as the Greek terminology goes) means something different than what we perceive today by indifference. It means dispassion from what the Ancients identified as the passions - greed, hatred, delusion, etc. And by the way, apatheia was used and encouraged by some Early Christians too.

unless you know one that calls on the Christian God???

The “Christian God” is a spiritual reality out there, not just a name. You could call Him asdhjaskdka, so long as you use that word to point to the same spiritual reality. Words are just words without a corresponding referent in the real world. Here is C.S. Lewis:

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.

 

[ragus93]

Also here Kierkegaard:

If one who lives in a Christian culture goes up to God’s house, the house of the true God, with a true conception of God, with knowledge of God and prays—but prays in a false spirit; and one who lives in a idolatrous land prays with the total passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest on the image of an idol; where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God, although he worships an idol. The other prays in untruth to the true God and therefore really worships an idol

Such a practice will end the person following it into the communion of the demoniacs… And Exorcism will be the only way out…

I disagree. You “resist” demonic possession by using your judgment. If the practice you follow does not compromise your judgment, but moreover, makes your capacity to judge more acute, I see no issue with it.

Something like hypnosis is a dangerous practice. Vipassana meditation, on the other hand, is not.

And it is ridiculous to claim that it is. Just go to a Buddhist country like Thailand, and you will see many holy monks who have a deep sensitivity and compassion in them, fruits that cannot be of the devil.

 

[ragus93]

By the way, I have been greatly enjoying The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church so far - I had the book for quite awhile but only started reading it once you mentioned it. Thanks!

 

[EndTimes]

And it is ridiculous to claim that it is. Just go to a Buddhist country like Thailand, and you will see many holy monks who have a deep sensitivity and compassion in them, fruits that cannot be of the devil.

That said, Catholicism does not reject what is true within Buddhism

That said, that does not equate to Catholicism as viewing Buddhism as if an equal replacement to Buddhism

That said, I’ve read what is said to be Siddhartha Gautama’s original Comments.
All Well and Fine And
I’ve read what JESUS said and did - from the GOSPELS and NT
And it is in that where the Pearl of Great Worth can be Found
for the minds of Today.

_

 

[ragus93]

Sure thing, I agree that Christianity goes deeper than Buddhism and is to be preferred, that is why I am a Christian afterall. I don’t think the two are equal, but at the same time I do think that Buddhism is a decent spiritual path that can take one quite far if followed in earnestness.

 

[EndTimes]

Sure thing, I agree that Christianity goes deeper than Buddhism and is to be preferred, that is why I am a Christian afterall. I don’t think the two are equal, but at the same time I do think that Buddhism is a decent spiritual path that can take one quite far if followed in earnestness.

I agree… It especially applies to any who’d never had the opportunity to hear anything by word of mouth or in print - of eg., JESUS / GOSPEL.

 

[franklinstower]

Once you read The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church you will have a solid understanding of how just a subtle change in theology (on matters of the Trinity and focus on risen or dying Christ) between Catholicism and the Orthodox Church has created a different flavor of mysticism even in those two very similar religions and both solidly under the direction of Christ.

I cannot give you a precise answer as I am not a methodical thinker. I end up in connection with a lot of people who are coming to Christ from outside religions including the New Age movement, mormonism, protestant Christianity and others. Getting the theology they come in with (often not acknowledged) out of them can take a few years in my experience.

If someone believes that all mysticism is the same I have noticed it doing some harms.

1- they seem unable to “hear” an initiation or energy from the Holy Spirit that you are trying to describe to them or point out to them. There is an unconscious “stuffing” of what you are saying into an already experienced or conceived category.

This causes the person to miss the Holy Spirit in the room and be unable to participate with God in meaningful ways.

2- if they notice it finally they seem to be unable to focus on it, and listen to it long term and be initiated by it. The “energy” of whatever literature they are reading to expose them to the notion that all mysticism is the same (usually New Age) is so loud, and so definitively seen to be superior that they cannot or will not surrender to this new and different energy.

If the person does not believe that God is personal I have noticed it doing certain harms.

1- they simply cannot trust or grow in “faith” that God can and will bring them into a deep spirituality. They will be constantly trying to figure out the way, or create the way, or find the way. If they have exposure to various energetic techniques then they will use them every time things get tough, issues arise, doubt arises etc. Instead of sinking deeply into their “need” for God to heal them in simple trust they will use techniques to change and manage spirituality.

This is particularly damaging to deep spirituality and to the relationship with God that develops when you turn to God in these times of need rather than to technique.

Even if underneath all these misunderstandings they are sincere and truly want God this created deep confusion and misunderstanding about what is healing them and how.

2- this same misperception with its logical conclusion that God is not enough to heal you, or enlighten you (as there is not personal God, or if there is, that it wont heal you or bring you to itself) makes the entire first three stages of Christian beatitude impossible to grow in.

 

[franklinstower]

^^^^^^^^

“Blessed are the poor in Spirit” cannot really be attained, or given rather, unless a person can accept that they cannot save themselves… that there is a reason for Jesus and salvation, that it cannot be merited., grasped, earned etc.

Poverty of spirit in the Christian sense is to become a blind beggar. You must admit and accept deeply that you don’t know the way and that you don’t have anything you need to make the journey even if you did know the way.

This is linked up with belief in a personal God, and with Jesus as saviour outside of merit. Until you KNOW you cannot pull it off on your own, even with human aid and the aid of traditions outside of Christianity you simply cannot ask God to help you with the required sincerity. You can’t mean it at the level needed without good theology.

3- People without an understanding of a personal God find all of the same difficulties just mentioned in the microcosm of a prayer session. They will be “trying” somehow to make it happen, to do it right, to figure it out etc. This makes possible the process of surrender and submission required.

The same could be said for almost every other major point of Christian theology from God and Jesus, to the nature of man, its creation out of nothing, apophaticism etc etc.

 

[ragus93]

Until you KNOW you cannot pull it off on your own, even with human aid and the aid of traditions outside of Christianity you simply cannot ask God to help you with the required sincerity. YOu can’t mean it at the level needed without good theology.

Does Contemplation in the Christian sense involve words? To me, asking God for help seems more like vocal prayer, whereas contemplative prayer would simply be attempting to become aware of God in the present moment, in silence and inner stillness.

So is there some relation between the two, vocal and contemplative prayer? Is it necessary to “ask God for help” to experience Christian contemplation?