Christians and pole dance/pole fitness

[twf]

Alright, so I see that many of you consider pole dancing as “just a sport”, my question to all men, when you see the women in a two-piece nothing doing the splits around the bar and the whole routine, is that what you are thinking: “cool, what a sport!” ?

And to all women, would you sign your daughter up for it?
Honestly, if to all men who see pole dancing it’s nothing but a sport, and you’d all be comfortable with having your daughters join a class, I’ll buy it.

That was my first thought as well, but as others have said on this thread, there is apparently a sport version of pole dancing that has nothing to do with stripping…in which the athletes / performers are fully dressed in the style of a gymnast.
As an aside, to answer your question, I, thankfully, have very little experience with strip clubs, but I do recall one occasion where, as a man, I did indeed think “wow these women are incredibly athletic” - spinning around half way up a poll at rapid speeds takes an incredible amount of strength.

 

[DeniseNY]

My opinion as a man is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the female mind to rationalize.

.

 

[CradleJourney]

My opinion as a man is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the female mind to rationalize.

If it’s a sport, surely there would be no objection to groups of men (not just the significant others) stopping by class to appreciate the artistry? Or offering constructive criticism of the athlete’s form? You have skin tight leotards on that sometimes leave less to the imagination than a g-string, but it’s a sport and not sexual in any way. Lol.

If a married woman wants to do a sexy dance for her husband and takes a class to learn how to do just that, I have zero quarrel with that. But let’s not pretend that the pole isn’t about sex.

My opinion as a woman is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the male mind to revert everything to sex.

 

[Horton]

My opinion as a woman is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the male mind to revert everything to sex.

 

[EasterJoy]

My opinion as a woman is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the male mind to revert everything to sex.

Let’s be fair. Pole dancing may only be a form of fitness that combines aerobics with body-weight strength training and flexibility exercises, using a pole as a point of leverage, but it did not start that way. It started out as center stage for athletic strippers in clubs that made money on the men’s willingness to fork over money to indulge their lustful desires. It wasn’t that long ago that it was nothing other than that, ever. Let’s not blame men for thinking that this form of exercise might be very attractive to the exhibitionists, including the ones who are exhibitionists but don’t want to admit it.

We all know it is very possible to fool everyone but ourselves about our motives. Let’s not pretend pole dancing is some kind of exception to that rule.

 

[EasterJoy]

Perhaps things have changed. Or perhaps it depends where you go. Regretfully, I have been to such establishments twice in my life…and in at least one case, the degree of fitness and physical elegance displayed was truly remarkable…true athletes.

There is no necessary reason that a person can’t be an amazing athlete and a sexual exhibitionist at the same time. The two are by no means mutually exclusive. I don’t know that there is any correlation between the two at all, either positive or negative.

 

[on_the_hill]

My opinion as a woman is I never fail to be surprised at the capacity of the male mind to revert everything to sex.

It’s not our fault. It’s Adam’s. And if Eve hadn’t tempted him into eating that apple…so from the beginning it was a woman’s fault, you see.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

There is no necessary reason that a person can’t be an amazing athlete and a sexual exhibitionist at the same time. The two are by no means mutually exclusive. I don’t know that there is any correlation between the two at all, either positive or negative.

I think that many activities are themselves neutral but can be used for good or bad.
Pole dancing for fitness and pole dancing to stir up lust in men are very different. Of course there is some overlap. Many pro female athletes have indeed decided to market themselves as sex symbols, such as Danica the race driver and some (but certainly not all) of the Olympic class US gymnasts and figure skaters.

Even some male athletes have had “crossover appeal” with women who have little knowledge of the sport thy are in, but find them to be physically attractive. Derek Jeter and Tom Brady come to mind.

I can also see how an actual pole dancing performance may be an occasion of sin for some even if the person herself isn’t aiming for that reaction. But I don’t think taking a fitness class in pole dancing itself is inherently sinful.

ETA: And BTW regarding the ballet example brought up by both me and **Ubicaritas **as “activity that used to be associated with sexual scandal and depravity but is no longer”, here’s one concrete (or bronze) example, the “Little Dancer” statue originally sculpted in wax by Edgar Degas and later reproduced in bronze.

Here’s one contemporary art critic’s take on the work, per Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Dancer_of_Fourteen_Years

One critic, Paul Mantz, called her the “flower of precocious depravity,” with a face “marked by the hateful promise of every vice” and “bearing the signs of a profoundly heinous character.”

I also recall watching a documentary on the history of the statue and the model that started out bluntly stating, that what the audience saw when the statue was first unveiled was NOT an innocent little girl, “but a whore”.

 

[twf]

It’s not our fault. It’s Adam’s. And if Eve hadn’t tempted him into eating that apple…so from the beginning it was a woman’s fault, you see.

That was the view of many for much of Church history

 

[Mark121359]

This is the winner of the world’s pole sport championship m.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-kllxaNAI

Watch the video above. Now let’s cut to the chase. Would Christ approve of you taking your children to see this? How about his Immaculate Mother?

Peace, Mark

 

[ThePCWife]

That video is not so different from rhythmic gymnastics, but more athletic, ironically.

 

[EasterJoy]

Watch the video above. Now let’s cut to the chase. Would Christ approve of you taking your children to see this? How about his Immaculate Mother?

Peace, Mark

The leotard is more Las Vegas than you’d see in a gymnast, but I don’t know how much that has to do with the physics of needing skin contact with the pole to make the tricks work.

I watched the video with the sound off, so I don’t know what the music was, but other than that, it looks like gymnastics to me, and really difficult gymnastics at that. It is certainly not dancing that a woman could only have dreamed up as a way to be provocative to men.

Other than the kind of physical damage a child might do to herself or the furniture in your house after watching that, I don’t see that it is worse than regular gymnastics or contemporary figure skating. I didn’t think of a strip club while I was watching it.

 

[Horton]

The leotard is more Las Vegas than you’d see in a gymnast, but I don’t know how much that has to do with the physics of needing skin contact with the pole to make the tricks work.

I watched the video with the sound off, so I don’t know what the music was, but other than that, it looks like gymnastics to me, and really difficult gymnastics at that. It is certainly not dancing that a woman could only have dreamed up as a way to be provocative to men.

Other than the kind of physical damage a child might do to herself or the furniture in your house after watching that, I don’t see that it is worse than regular gymnastics or contemporary figure skating. I didn’t think of a strip club while I was watching it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The leotard is more Las Vegas than you’d see in a gymnast, but I don’t know how much that has to do with the physics of needing skin contact with the pole to make the tricks work.

I watched the video with the sound off, so I don’t know what the music was, but other than that, it looks like gymnastics to me, and really difficult gymnastics at that. It is certainly not dancing that a woman could only have dreamed up as a way to be provocative to men.

Other than the kind of physical damage a child might do to herself or the furniture in your house after watching that, I don’t see that it is worse than regular gymnastics or contemporary figure skating. I didn’t think of a strip club while I was watching it.

Agree. This looks like a normal act from Cirque du Soleil or even possibly from the now-defunct Ringling Brothers. It didn’t bother me in the least and I wouldn’t see anything amiss in children viewing it.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Alright, so I see that many of you consider pole dancing as “just a sport”, my question to all men, when you see the women in a two-piece nothing doing the splits around the bar and the whole routine, is that what you are thinking: “cool, what a sport!” ?

And to all women, would you sign your daughter up for it?
Honestly, if to all men who see pole dancing it’s nothing but a sport, and you’d all be comfortable with having your daughters join a class, I’ll buy it.

Some men will think the same for swimming, gymnastics, ballet, even horse riding…anywhere where a woman has tight fitting clothes and the moves can be deemed as "sexual. I have nothing against fitness pole dancing, it takes incredible strength to do and is a great work out. If people (men and women) want to turn something non sexual into sexual, the sin is with them not the athlete.

Yes I would be happy for my daughter to do fitness pole dancing when she is older.

Edit the video: doesn’t seem sexual to me at all, no different to watching a gymnast in a circus act for example.

It’s probably worth mentioning that they have to wear little clothing as they need skin contact with the bar for the grip!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Some men will think the same for swimming, gymnastics, ballet, even horse riding…anywhere where a woman has tight fitting clothes and the moves can be deemed as "sexual. I have nothing against fitness pole dancing, it takes incredible strength to do and is a great work out. If people (men and women) want to turn something non sexual into sexual, the sin is with them not the athlete.

Thanks for pointing out that both men and women can turn something non sexual into a sexual thing. Many women do like to watch heavily muscled male athletes compete in skintight clothing, too. I could even argue that the Butterfly Stroke in swimming is obscene since thrusting the body up and down is part of the stroke and people could look at it and think of sex.

I notice that both sexual libertines AND prudes like to sexualize a lot of non-sexual activities.

 

[chevalier]

Pole dancing is a bit like skimpy beach outfits. One can invent a ton of arguments in support of it and even find some that are actually legitimate. On the other hand, there is still the question of whence the idea? why even bother? if the whole thing is admitted to have sexual roots or come (in some way) from the sex industry, then how come it could or should be deemed asexual on the basis of having been abstracted several steps away from it?

There is nothing inherently wrong about having props in dancing in general, or a fixed pole as a prop in particular. But why take any inspiration from the obvious source of this inspiration?

In particular, I believe Christians in general, and people in general, should avoid lending legitimacy to some ways insecure (or overly secure) girls conceive of helping their self-esteem through fashion inspirations from or mental associations with the sex industry or professional sex workers.

This said, I obviously can’t pass judgements on any performance without having seen it not that I’d have any desire do, not that it would please me to judge at all.

 

[chevalier]

Some men will think the same for swimming, gymnastics, ballet, even horse riding…anywhere where a woman has tight fitting clothes and the moves can be deemed as "sexual. I have nothing against fitness pole dancing, it takes incredible strength to do and is a great work out. If people (men and women) want to turn something non sexual into sexual, the sin is with them not the athlete.

If they turn something non-sexual into sexual, then quite possibly yes.

On the other hand, if the athlete insists on treating as non-sexual something which actually is or was originally sexual, then the athlete should ask himself or herself some questions, starting from the most obvious: why?

In terms of sound logic, it’s not possible to gratuitously deny the sexual nature of something already previously accepted as sexual and then use the burden of proof as a defence as though the critics were asserting something new and outlandish.

Another obvious question to ask is also: If everybody else actually agreed that x is asexual, would then x actually still appeal to me so much? Would I still have so much incentive to engage in it?

(Having passed the test, as well as having found no legitimate reason for others to be scandalized, one could quite possibly come out blameless, except we still have an obligation to avoid scandalizing others, which I’m not sure a desire for some particular sort of recreation can be justly held to override. Starker example: good-faith naturists insisting on their right to exercise their preferred habits on a public beach that isn’t designated for that kind of thing.)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If they turn something non-sexual into sexual, then quite possibly yes.

On the other hand, if the athlete insists on treating as non-sexual something which actually is or was originally sexual, then the athlete should ask himself or herself some questions, starting from the most obvious: why?

In terms of sound logic, it’s not possible to gratuitously deny the sexual nature of something already previously accepted as sexual and then use the burden of proof as a defence as though the critics were asserting something new and outlandish.

Another obvious question to ask is also: If everybody else actually agreed that x is asexual, would then x actually still appeal to me so much? Would I still have so much incentive to engage in it?

(Having passed the test, as well as having found no legitimate reason for others to be scandalized, one could quite possibly come out blameless, except we still have an obligation to avoid scandalizing others, which I’m not sure a desire for some particular sort of recreation can be justly held to override. Starker example: good-faith naturists insisting on their right to exercise their preferred habits on a public beach that isn’t designated for that kind of thing.)

I can see your point but I disagree with your logic since I am guessing you celebrate Christmas and Christmas has pagan origins. In fact most of the traditions are pagan in origin not just the day itself.

Yes, pole dancing probably was invented as sexual in nature (I’m guessing, I don’t know) but that doesn’t mean pole fitness has to be sexual or sinful because the origin was. The same way none of us would say Christmas is a pagan festival.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I can see your point but I disagree with your logic since I am guessing you celebrate Christmas and Christmas has pagan origins. In fact most of the traditions are pagan in origin not just the day itself.

Yes, pole dancing probably was invented as sexual in nature (I’m guessing, I don’t know) but that doesn’t mean pole fitness has to be sexual or sinful because the origin was. The same way none of us would say Christmas is a pagan festival.

I doubt anyone finds it scandalous to take a ballet class or go see a ballet performance, even though in the 1800s ballet dancers were considered the equivalent of prostitutes.

And certainly no one finds it scandalous to see a female actress perform, even though in the 1600s actresses were considered the equivalent of prostitutes. (All of the roles in Elizabethan plays were filled by men, including the female roles.)

Nor do they find it scandalous for a woman to walk around with her hair uncovered, even though in Paul’s time only prostitutes did that.

Like it or not, some of what is at one point considered “inherently sexual” just isn’t.