Christians--avoid seder meals

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Edit: My bad. I didn’t realise this was a resurrected thread. Consider me thoroughly embarrassed.
newf said:
…I was also reminded that Jesus was a Jew and that He attended a passover meal on the Thursday before He was crucified. I was honored to attend.

Holy Thursday is not a holy day of obligation.

There is no reason to avoid a seder meal.
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On the contrary, you just gave it. The Sacred Triduum is the holiest period in the entire year. If you are available to attend the liturgical rites of Maundy Thursday, and choose instead to engage in the very rites that Christ abolished, you commit a scandal.

Are you required or otherwise obligated to attend Mass on Maundy Thursday, preventing you from joining your Jewish friends for their Seder? No.

Does skipping the Mass of Maundy Thursday for its Jewish precursor send the wrong message about the importance of Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection to others, thereby occasioning scandal? Yes.

Should you do it? Absolutely not.
 
Toribus said:
Edit: My bad. I didn’t realise this was a resurrected thread. Consider me thoroughly embarrassed.

On the contrary, you just gave it. The Sacred Triduum is the holiest period in the entire year. If you are available to attend the liturgical rites of Maundy Thursday, and choose instead to engage in the very rites that Christ abolished, you commit a scandal.

Are you required or otherwise obligated to attend Mass on Maundy Thursday, preventing you from joining your Jewish friends for their Seder? No.

Does skipping the Mass of Maundy Thursday for its Jewish precursor send the wrong message about the importance of Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection to others, thereby occasioning scandal? Yes.

Should you do it? Absolutely not.
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I’m not sure Seders always occur on that date. Doesn’t the day move according to the calendar year?

I didn’t skip anything holy, the times I attended one. And as I’ve said before I might have known more about the ritual and its pre-Christ and AD meaning than those giving it. Might. 😉

has Father Corapi to thank for that
 
2/3 of a “pun” you intent at humor was good but not too many understood it which may be due to the present society …very few people have made or told jokes since 2001, before that I remember hearing several jokes daily …do you suppose 911 had something to do with that ?
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
I’m not sure Seders always occur on that date. Doesn’t the day move according to the calendar year?

I didn’t skip anything holy, the times I attended one. And as I’ve said before I might have known more about the ritual and its pre-Christ and AD meaning than those giving it. Might. 😉

has Father Corapi to thank for that
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Yes, the dates of Easter (in the Latin tradition) and Passover are not calculated in the same way, and more often than not do not correspond. I was replying to a particular vignette, that being someone who skips the holiest of the Church’s events for something explicitly abolished by Christ.

Nothing wrong with the Seder, what’s wrong is choosing it in stead of its true fulfillment.
 
Augie1530 said:
2/3 of a “pun” you intent at humor was good but not too many understood it which may be due to the present society …very few people have made or told jokes since 2001, before that I remember hearing several jokes daily …do you suppose 911 had something to do with that ?
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HUH??? :confused:

Maybe you’re spending time with the wrong people… 😃
 
My fellow catholic brothers & sisters,

Reading many of the posts is quite saddening. While there are points made by many which are good ones, there many more which are inaccurate or outright wrong.

As Catholics we have, hold & treasure the “fullness of the Christian faith”, and in having & holding this fullness we need to take care not to be short sighted in that the Jewish people were the chosen people - the very nation & heritage from which Our Savior was born into, raised in, and yes condemned to death by (but remember it was not all the jews who condemned him - so as with any race or ethnicity, we can not hold all the Jews as condeming Christ.), but we must remember He conquered death and ascended to heaven.

In the Gospel account where He gives the great commission He says “go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and Of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…” nowhere does He say - “except for the Jewish people who betrayed me”. Christs mercy is for all sinners even those who lack belief in Him; His mercy is there with the hope that they open thier eyes, ears and hearts and come to believe. If we as Catholics deny the Jewish origin of our Savior, we do what Christ Himself did not.

So do we refuse to participate in Seder suppers which are properly conducted, and not made part of the Easter Triduum liturgies; but rather a means of teaching and understanding the passover in it’s historical nature and learning the elements of faith which Judiasim and Catholicism have in common as well as understanding the differences between the faiths so that we truly appreciate our faith even more? or should we not shun them if they are conducted in accordance with the advice from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops? Perhaps if we understand the commonalities and differences, as well as practice our faith genuinely, partaking in the Seder as a lesson and not as a substitute for or prelude to any Catholic Liturgy, then perhaps we can better go about the work of converting our Jewish brothers & sisters by our Christian example of “dining with those sinners”.

How can we ask others to learn about and respect our Catholic Faith, when we show such distain for the faith of the old convenant, which is indeed fulfilled and replaced by the new covenant. How can we expect to lead those from the old covenant, no longer valid; to the new, valid and true covenant if we fail to understand where they are still lost?

Now as to fend off the attacks, don’t get me wrong. I do not condone, encourage or promote holding seder suppers as part of the Catholic Easter Triduum, or any Catholic Mass in any form as this is squarely against the advice & guidance of the Church, but holding one outside these conditions so as to more fully understand the origins of our faith from the old convenant and it’s traditions - both the commonalities and differences so we can fulfil our charge “go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and Of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…” is not against our faith, nor the guidance of the Church through Her Bishops.
 
If you make it like a little play, that’s no problem. Like Yoga, if you observe it religiously, it’s participating actively (like taking part) in a non-Catholic service. If we actively participate in a seder or whatever other service of the Jews, with Jews, it says ours is the best faith, but theirs is just as valid, when God wanted us to go on once his new covenant was rejected by them (as a whole and not individually). We are still a continuation of Judaism in God’s eyes, I believe, just as Judaism was an adaptation some time after Melchiezedek’s sacrificial offering, but only our people have been addressed by God with serious messages and Mary’s messages on His behalf or from Him and understood by our bishops as descendants of his priests of the newest and last covenant.
That is why we should not look back. Besides, as I said, should we spread lamb’s blood on doors or slit its throat before a priest as part of a confession? That would be an accurate reenactment of something Jesus and his family did. Why be so picky with what we reenact? I think there is an allusion to the story of Lot’s wife. We can sit and watch a seder, but participating in, as a religious observance, a non-Catholic service is not right to do. Besides, we have the closest liturgy to the one Christ started and, like I said, we’re not really seeing these things as Christ did them before instating the liturgy. For all we know, he started it like that with his family, once he began speaking.

Non-Catholics are very welcome to watch and observe a Catholic Mass, benediction, etc… I have no problem being a friend of one. I’m just saying somethings can’t be repeated and how Christ participated in seders or whatever probably isn’t recorded and Judaism hasn’t been the historical kind since the last temple fell. We’ve evolved past the rites of The Old Testament as the Church of the New Covenant. We can’t redo the old way any more than we can become Neandertals, if you believe in them. That’s history for the history books. Even the Jews have adapted the ways of doing their old rites for an alternate, unauthorized timeline paralleling the authorized priesthood.
 
I also believe we should not “look back” in the context that we should not be looking to subsitute or replace any of the liturgy or Catholic celebrations with Jewish religious ceremonies, but in the context of understanding history and our faith if we fail to learn and understand history and the differences between our faiths - then we stand to repeat them for this very lack of understanding.

As I stated, there are elements in common between these faiths, which are good; as we would expect if our Catholic faith is the fulfillment of the old covenant, and the begining of the new covenant. We as Catholics need to understand these common elements, know the differences so we can speak intelligently to our Jewish friends about faith in the hopes of bringing them into the new covenant through conversion. In order to do this we need to; as the Church has always & traditionally taught, recognize that all that is good comes from God even that which is good & right in other religions - and that it is man which distorts what is good and creates that which is not always good, from what is good. We should strive not to dichotomize the Bible into two mutually contradictory parts, nor deny the links of the Central act of Christian Worship to Jewish Ritual.

From the USCCB: …“The Christian ordo (order of worship) is an exact rendering of the earliest rabbinic idea of prayer, called a seder, that is, an “order” of service. Moreover, the Christian ordo takes its form and structure from the Jewish seder: the Liturgy of the Word, with its alternating biblical readings, doxologies, and blessings; and the liturgical form of the Eucharist, rooted in Jewish meal liturgy, with its blessings over bread and wine. Theologically, the Christian concept of anamnesis coincides with the Jewish understanding of zikkaron (memorial reenactment). Applied to the Passover celebration, zikkaron refers to the fact that God’s saving deed is not only recalled but actually relived through the ritual meal. The synoptic gospels present Jesus as instituting the Eucharist during a Passover seder celebrated with his followers, giving to it a new and distinctly Christian “memory.””…

A good book by Pope Benedict the XVI give a lot of good answers and perspectives on how we as Catholics should approach and interact with those of other religions “Many Religions, One Covenant - Israel, the Church and the World”. While we should never deny any truth of our Catholic faith or seek to undermine it by incorrectly substituting relious cermonies & practices of other faiths, we always need to recognize the continuity and harmony between the old & new convenants as well as understand the differences between living out the life of the old covenant rather than the new. We should strive to engage in dialogue as part of the missionary activity of the Church, and not hold these mutually exclusive of each other for they are not.

A quick excerpt from the book “Many Religions, One Covenant” from Pope Benedict XVI: …“What we need, however, is respect for the beliefs of others and the readiness to look for the truth in what strikes us as strange or foreign; for such truth concerns us and can correct us and lead us farther along the path. What we need is the willingness to look behind the alien appearances and look for the deeper truth hidden there” … Now so as not to be accused of taking things out of context I truly encourage folks to read this book as there is definitely important material before and after that excerpt which predicate it and expand on it.

Here is a good reference to read from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops on this subject as well: usccb.org/liturgy/godsmercy.shtml
 
My Catholic college had an “interfaith seder” every year during Passover, and it was officiated by our campus minister (not a priest, at the time). It was attended by our women religious members, and Christian and Jewish (and atheist, I’m sure) students and faculty alike. The only statement I ever thought my school made by allowing the seders was that other religions should be tolerated and respected in a way that involved the campus community. I never thought attending a seder, as a Christian, meant anything other than participating in a special meal out of respect for Jewish friends and Jesus’ heritage.

As long as a person doesn’t renounce church teaching or the divinity of Christ, I don’t buy that there is anything wrong with going to a seder.
 
foolishmortal said:
If you make it like a little play, that’s no problem. Like Yoga, if you observe it religiously, it’s participating actively (like taking part) in a non-Catholic service. If we actively participate in a seder or whatever other service of the Jews, with Jews, it says ours is the best faith, but theirs is just as valid, when God wanted us to go on once his new covenant was rejected by them (as a whole and not individually). We are still a continuation of Judaism in God’s eyes, I believe, just as Judaism was an adaptation some time after Melchiezedek’s sacrificial offering, but only our people have been addressed by God with serious messages and Mary’s messages on His behalf or from Him and understood by our bishops as descendants of his priests of the newest and last covenant.
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Again–I don’t believe the Seder qualifies as a ‘service.’ It is held in a private home.
 
sparksj3 said:
Are you denying that it is also a ritual that follows a certain liturgy? I’m quite familiar with a Sedar and it seems self evident that it is two things: 1) a meal, 2) a liturgical rite.

Just because something is a meal does not also mean that it is not a ritual act of a certain religion. Again, this is something that our Jewish friends would insist strongly upon. They do not see this as just any other meal, or as merely just a meal.
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The Eucharist is a meal…​

Does the distinction between meals, and ritual meals, even make sense ?
 
As long as a person doesn’t renounce church teaching or the divinity of Christ, I don’t buy that there is anything wrong with going to a seder.
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I say “lex orandi; lex credendi”. Don’t intellectualize it. Don’t assume people are so elevated in their faith, they’ll mix tolerance and respect of a faith with it being just as fine to be of those faiths, as if God’s going to enlighten them all if they’re good people, as if what we receive by baptism is just a bonus.

I don’t really get into the writings of a pope that had something like the Asissi interfaith thing for peace and went to the UN in hopes they’ll bring peace. Only the Catholic Church can bring peace. The others, though fine for those who did not have the truth when the OT was in effect and did not have the NT, when that was in effect, are man-made, like those religions and Christian faiths that came after the Church’s establishment by God. As man-made religions, they just get in the way. I’m not trying to denigrate other faiths, but each need to have some time apart to reestablish their theological language, borders and culture or they’ll get lost in the kumbayah false peace by getting together to battle this or that social ill mumbo jumbo (that helps no one feel the need to convert), thus not seeing their faith as number one until realizing the Catholic Church is number one. Those are the ones that will be true to themselves, as a collective (Muslims and traditional Catholics–not kumbayah types–have the most children, though the latter has had a setback when most Catholics got accepted by mainstream society, for a while, thus it seems the Muslims are gaining ground in the world on us). The others, minus some fundie Protestants, have made their peace with “the world”. We need Mary to free them from their blindness and we just instruct them in kindness the truth and do works of charity instead of a lot of yapping and experiences.
We need to go back to the days of wiser minds–those of our patriarchs, who wrote stuff like Quas Primas, for example.

Besides, I’ve already explained how reenacting the seder is not assuredly the way Jesus did it,
Their books burnt up with the last temple. Their rites are probably long corrupted versions of the ones 2000 years ago.
 
Hmmm, wow - which Pope’s writings on carrying out the mission of the Church do you recommend? I do not reacall Pope Bendict XVI going to the UN, but I may have missed that. There are a lot of references to false peace, “making peace with the world”, “kumbayah” references as well. I was not proposing such “false peace” as this would deny the essential truths of the Catholic faith. What I was stating was that the Catholic Church’s Mission has always been to the conversion of others to the Catholic faith, including the Jewish People, nor has the Church ever denied that thier are elements of good in all faiths as all that is good comes from God.

While the Encyclical Quas Primas is beautiful and is entirely on the implementation of the Feast of Christ the King, and that Catholics are to know, believe and hold true that Christ is our King and Savior, how are you correlating this encyclical to not participating in a Seder, or even more so engaging Jewish people in dialouge with the hopes & intent of conversion? Since you have brought us back to Pious XI with Quas Primas, would you put forth the argument that the actions of Pious the XII were against the faith when the Catholic Church went out of her way to save the Jewish people?

I ask these questions because of the jump in your logic. While it is ok for Jewish people and other non-catholics to observe the Mass (by observe I assume you mean participating in the parts they are allowed to and not receiving commununion) but it is not ok for us to observe (participate in the parts we are allowed to) a seder supper? How did the jewish person or non-catholic end up in the Mass? Were they invitied? if So why did they come? - perhaps because someone talked to them about the faith and the Mass and it’s origins stemming from the Jewish faith and gained thier interest? Surely I would find it hard to believe that if we hold such common things in distain that any person would want to come to the Mass even when invited? If we are to carry out the fundamental mission of the Church - should we not know the other faiths we will encounter to be able to bear witness to the Catholic faith and speak knowingly of the differences with the goal being conversion to the Catholic faith? If we are to carry out this mission, then how do you speak knowingly, while refusing to learn & understand?
 
There’s good in all, but the errors in the others’ faiths (or ones allowed in later), will undermine the good they do. Allowing contraception will lead to self-serving that will lead to massacres or wars. Only our church can bring God’s peace dogmatically perfectly (the people carrying it out may fail but that’s all we can do for God, ourselves. Instead of talking about our faiths to death and overthinking, it, just be kind, be friends (if the person isn’ta degenerate), be patient, etc. (let go; let God), but going to others’ religious functions is overdoing it. Should we go to a black mass to convert ritualistic Satanists?

I don’t think Pius 11th was against saving Jews or anyone non-Catholic. I believe Quas Primas was about leaders, and not just individuals, implementing the Catholic Faith’s moral teachings in society, as it holds all the teachings of Christ and no doctrinal error and thus, making Christ the King in all societies. That should be the goal of our Church. If you think about it, government by the people was a French Revolution kind of line of thinking (with those kind of people in office in many lands, the people have better judgment, so it kind of works, but the ideal government is like that of the last Holy Roman Emperor in Austria’s, before he was exiled–similar to Israel wanting human-kings instead of God as king, but this was people’s whims as king instead of nobility holding up God’s moral teachings, which was a step further down). People get squeamish about that kind of talk, but it’s really includes leaders not saying I’m personally opposed to this and that, but…
 
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