Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[LittleFlower378]

My question is this: how are these statements by the Pope helpful to the cause of evangelization? I believe they are not helpful, but rather hurt the cause of evangelization.

1. First, the context is Orlando.The Orlando shooter was a deranged, homosexual Muslim. Neither the Church nor any individual Christians bear any responsibility for his actions. Frankly, I find it scandalous for the Bishop and the Pope to suggest that they do.
2. Second, the impression conveyed by comments such as these to the “average person” is that the Church (or at least Pope Francis) is finally “coming around” on the issue of homosexuality and apologizing for having been wrong all these years. Perhaps that’s not how these comments should be understood, but it is how they will be understood.
3. Third, the fact is that homosexual acts are an abomination to God. The same is true of adultery and fornication of all types. The repeated and insistent emphasis on “welcoming” homosexuals has the (unintended?) effect of conveying that it really isn’t all that bad. It is bad; very, very bad. It is not “okay.”
4. In the West, we are having the gay agenda shoved down our throats by every major actor in society: the media, entertainment, academia, the courts. There will be no toleration for Christians who hold traditional views on this issue. Statements like this, i.e., that the Church should apologize for the acts of individual Catholics who treated homosexuals poorly, convey the impression that the Church is giving up.
5. Finally, and perhaps more importantly, statements like this give great comfort and aid to those within the Church who are actively working to do what cannot be done: remove “homosexual acts” from the sin list. There is a great effort underway to “normalize” homosexual conduct by certain activist Catholics - including many clergy. Their aim is to see homosexual “unions” recognized, blessed and normalized by the Church - even if they can’t be “sacramental” marriages.

Maybe the Pope was talking about situations in Germany? But thats not %100 true because he was asked about Orlando. Your assesment is a very good one, especially number 5, and is exactly was is happening and may continue to happen in America.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Honestly, I don’t find it confusing.
If one reflects and finds themselves guilty, they should go to their brother and apologize.
It’s Scriptural.
If one has not been judgmental against anyone… Then what are people worked up about?
To hear the CAF posters…no one of us have EVER EVER EVER sinned!!!
I frankly, find that hard to believe. When we have a wonderful and pastoral Pope whose selection was inspired by the Holy Spirit (yeah, remember that teaching folks?) we ought to listen and reflect before we starting slinging mud and putting words into his mouth.
Meltzerboy is correct. What will it harm the average Catholic if they have compassion for fellow sinners? How will it water down Catholic teaching? It will not.

Those who cry obedience are often the most vocal about not wanting to be led.
It’s ironic. And sad.
I’m out. I can’t take anymore of the Francis bashing.
God bless you.

Not to be completely off point but. I don’t think it’s teaching that the selection of the pope is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jimmy akin wrote about this I think.
Though I think St Fabian was probably chosen by the HS. A dove landing on his head and all…

 

[gilliam]

This is what the Pope said. I think it is pretty clear when you read it in context:

Cindy Wooden, CNS: Holiness, within the past few days Cardinal Marx, the German, speaking at a large conference in Dublin which is very important on the Church in the modern world, said that the Catholic Church must ask forgiveness to the gay community for having marginalized these people. In the days following the shooting in Orlando, many have said that the Christian community had something to do with this hate toward these people. What do you think?

Pope Francis: I will repeat what I said on my first trip. I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally. One can condemn, but not for theological reasons, but for reasons of political behavior … Certain manifestations are a bit too offensive for others, no? … But these are things that have nothing to do with the problem. The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? And we must accompany them well … this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism. Then there are traditions in some countries, in some cultures that have a different mentality on this problem. I think that the Church must not only ask forgiveness — like that “Marxist Cardinal” said (laughs) — must not only ask forgiveness to the gay person who is offended. But she must ask forgiveness to the poor too, to women who are exploited, to children who are exploited for labor. She must ask forgiveness for having blessed so many weapons. The Church must ask forgiveness for not behaving many times — when I say the Church, I mean Christians! The Church is holy, we are sinners! — Christians must ask forgiveness for having not accompanied so many choices, so many families … I remember from my childhood the culture in Buenos Aires, the closed Catholic culture. I go over there, eh! A divorced family couldn’t enter the house, and I’m speaking of 80 years ago. The culture has changed, thanks be to God. Christians must ask forgiveness for many things, not just these. Forgiveness, not just apologies. Forgive, Lord. It’s a word that many times we forget. Now I’m a pastor and I’m giving a sermon. No, this is true, many times. Many times … but the priest who is a master and not a father, the priest who beats and not the priest who embraces, forgives and consoles. But there are many. There are many hospital chaplains, prison chaplains, many saints. But these ones aren’t seen. Because holiness is modest, it’s hidden. Instead it’s a little bit of blatant shamelessness, it’s blatant and you see so many organizations of good people and people who aren’t as good and people who … because you give a purse that’s a little big and look at you from the other side like the international powers with three genocides. We Christians — priests, bishops — we have done this. But also we Christians have Teresa of Calcutta and many Teresa of Calcuttas. We have many servants in Africa, many laity, many holy marriages. The wheat and the weeds. And so Jesus says that the Kingdom … we must not be scandalized for being like this. We must pray so that the Lord makes these weeds end and there is more grain. But this is the life of the Church. We can’t put limits. All of us are saints, because all of us have the Holy Spirit. But we are all sinners, me first of all! Alright. I don’t know if I have replied.

m.ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-pope-francis-in-flight-press-conference-from-armenia/#.V3Gzu1SU2hd

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Again, if people believe that they have not erred EVER, then what’s to get worked up about? Pat yourself on the back.

So your view is that self righteous people who think themselves perfect are upset at the pope?

What I think is lacking in the pope’s message us not mercy, but rather repentance.

I think that is missing in this discussion. On all sides.

How can we preach the gospel if we cannot preach the whole gospel!?

 

[Strydersroom]

As a gay man, I applaud Pope Francis’s words. My only “Agenda” is for my husband and I to be treated with the same respect and dignity as any straight couple. I’ve grown up being bullied, picked on, and threatened my whole life, including by my so called “Christian” friends and even family. Luckily as I’ve grown and matured, I’ve developed more empathy for those who are simply misinformed and afraid of my scary “Gay agenda.” The simple fact is that many people, more and more everyday, see nothing wrong with being gay, gay marriage and shudder even gay affection (sexual and platonic). I love my husband and express it in my own way, it’s no one else’s business. So please, show kindness, tolerance and even some empathy to your gay friends, family and strangers. Yes I accept your apology Papa Francis. Thank you for opening so many people’s hearts.
cheers, Marc

 

[JosieN]

Well, I’m glad someone finally got it.
That’s all he is saying.

Most of the “confusion” is a result of uncharitable posting. There’s plenty of it on this thread. If one can’t see it, then…I don’t know what else to say.

If people “cared” they would stand behind the Vicar of Christ.
Pretty simple.

How can the Gospel be preached or sinners be brought to repentance without judging actions first? Jesus Christ was the only person without sin. To lead someone away from a sinful life, should they not be made aware of the sins they are committing? If we can’t judge because we are all sinners, that makes it much easier for everyone to lead a sinful life and end up in hell. Without repentance there is no hope for the soul. I agree we are all sinners, but I question the part that says we cannot judge others because we are all sinners. I do not mean to be uncharitable, that is not my intention, I apologize if I sound that way.

 

[pianistclare]

So your view is that self righteous people who think themselves perfect are upset at the pope?

What I think is lacking in the pope’s message us not mercy, but rather repentance.

I think that is missing in this discussion. On all sides.

How can we preach the gospel if we cannot preach the whole gospel!?

I just think you should give the Vicar of Christ due respect and a chance to teach before tossing out his words or not giving it proper reflection.

Again, what is so horrible about trying to make peace?
Do we not say something kind before we attempt to convert people? Is this not basic?
If people who are sinning come to know that they can be heard, and forgiven by Christ, they are more OPEN to conversion and proper instruction. I’ve never known anyone that would listen to a teaching when the phrase “oh, and by the way, you’re definitely goin to hell” is part of the convo. What do good confessors do? They listen, and in kindness lead us to **change our sinful ways. **

 

[pianistclare]

How can the Gospel be preached or sinners be brought to repentance without judging actions first? Jesus Christ was the only person without sin. To lead someone away from a sinful life, should they not be made aware of the sins they are committing? If we can’t judge because we are all sinners, that makes it much easier for everyone to lead a sinful life and end up in hell. Without repentance there is no hope for the soul. I agree we are all sinners, but I question the part that says we cannot judge others because we are all sinners.

There is but once judge. You know this.

You can’t tell me that people are clueless about sin. That’s what the prince of lies would have people think. That’s it’s just opinion. They know, they simply don’t care.
How do we get them to care?
By inviting them into the conversation.
You can’t shun people and expect to effect a conversion.

 

[2PT3]

There is but once judge. You know this.

You can’t tell me that people are clueless about sin. That’s what the prince of lies would have people think. That’s it’s just opinion. They know, they simply don’t care.
How do we get them to care?
By inviting them into the conversation.
You can’t shun people and expect to effect a conversion.

1 Corinthians 5 might be instructive reading here, concerning “judging” and shunning.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I just think you should give the Vicar of Christ due respect and a chance to teach before tossing out his words or not giving it proper reflection.

Again, what is so horrible about trying to make peace?
Do we not say something kind before we attempt to convert people? Is this not basic?
If people who are sinning come to know that they can be heard, and forgiven by Christ, they are more OPEN to conversion and proper instruction. I’ve never known anyone that would listen to a teaching when the phrase “oh, and by the way, you’re definitely goin to hell” is part of the convo. What do good confessors do? They listen, and in kindness lead us to **change our sinful ways. **

Evangelization is indeed a dance. In this case (Orlando) the shooter should have been evangelized as well as some of the victims.

Can you specifically say what the pope wishes people or churches to apologize for?

Are you aware of what the pope said when he was Cardinal?

 

[JosieN]

There is but once judge. You know this.

You can’t tell me that people are clueless about sin. That’s what the prince of lies would have people think. That’s it’s just opinion. They know, they simply don’t care.
How do we get them to care?
By inviting them into the conversation.
You can’t shun people and expect to effect a conversion.

So if we all apologize to gays because we believe homosexuality is a sin and we have no right to judge them because we are all sinners, they will repent and ask for God’s forgiveness because they know we care even though the Bible teaches it is a sin?

 

[Lion_IRC]

As a gay man, I applaud Pope Francis’s words. My only “Agenda” is for my husband and I to be treated with the same respect and dignity as any straight couple.

I treat all people with respect. Note that I don’t disambiguate LGBTQ people. I don’t have two ‘types’ of neighbor - gay or straight, black or white, Jew or Gentile…etc.

…I’ve grown up being bullied, picked on, and threatened my whole life,

Well you’ve never been bullied when I’m around because I don’t stop to first ask whether the person I see being bullied is gay before I step in and stand up to a bully. So I wouldn’t know the gender preference of the victim I was defending.
(And can I please add that I find it disgraceful that LGBTQ activists are so selective in taking up the cause of schoolyard bullying - so long as the child is allegedly gay or trans. ALL children deserve EQUAL protection.)

…I love my husband and express it in my own way, it’s no one else’s business.

Then why are you here posting about it?

…So please, show kindness, tolerance and even some empathy to your gay friends, family and strangers.

Sure. Business as usual.
Now, can you please take a message to your gay friends and tell them I have no Orlando LGBTQ blood on my hands - and neither does Jesus.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I find it a huge anomaly that we should be asked to apologise for stating that “x” is a sin but not apologise for telling people theft is a sin or adultery or blasphemy…

Should I apologize to greedy people who love money if I claim that such is the root of all evil?

We should not be ‘apologising’ for our views, we should be making an apologia.

 

[KSU]

Pope Francis may not intentionally mean to confuse us, but this is what is happening with many of his statements.

A successful business has talented workers and technicians (including lawyers). It also has skilled administrators with limited technical expertise who know how to keep everybody in their respective lanes and sell the product. If the boss happens to have technical expertise, he sits down with the technicians and lawyers and presents his ideas for consideration.

In the Church, the talented technicians and lawyers are theologians whose charism is to define, explain and safeguard the product (the Deposit of Faith). The boss, Good Pope Francis, doesn’t pretend to be a theologian. Nevertheless he says things such as “The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge?”

Of course the Pope doesn’t thereby intend to change Church teaching against allowing homosexuals, especially pederasts, to become priests just because they now say they have good will and seek God. But what orthodox theologian would approve the Pope’s words? How many Catholics cried and are suffering again today because he said that? How many people left the Church because he said that? How many joined under false expectations since he said that?

What is to stop some ISIS barbarians from using those unfortunate words in defense of their actions? Don’t they too believe they have good will for their faith and their people; don’t they too seek their god and now believe that Catholics should apologize to them? After all, who are Catholics to judge them?

Francis is aware that his weakness is speaking extemporaneously. But, unfortunately, he seems to love it; to create a “mess”. He wants us to do the same in order to shock Catholics out of our slumber and start fixing things. catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-to-youth-shake-things-up-bring-church-to-the-streets/

Francis is so filled with compassion and love for those who are suffering (including the earth) that he appears to have decided to throw caution to the winds and engage in a calculated risk of making a mess–not to damage but to renew in the sense that one makes a mess by tearing down a shabby old house interior and putting up a sparkling new one.

Perhaps his gamble will succeed, but I don’t believe it will. Perhaps he refuses to consider the fact that many suffer as a direct result of their refusal to live according to what God has written on their hearts. It appears he is driving away more sheep than he is bringing in, and the latter will become even more anti-Catholic and hate-filled once they learn that he never intended to and in fact has no authority to change Church teaching.

Catholics have much to be congratulated for regarding those who suffer out of no fault of their own. Of course some Catholics sin against charity, but this is not the way to fix it. I pray that the boss will sit down with his technicians and lawyers very soon. He knows what is happening and I pray that he doesn’t again blame the media for the confusion. He gives them more than enough red meat to cause the confusion which they see as their job to exacerbate.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

**This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism. **

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

:sad_yes:

 

[pianistclare]

So if we all apologize to gays because we believe homosexuality is a sin and we have no right to judge them because we are all sinners, they will repent and ask for God’s forgiveness because they know we care even though the Bible teaches it is a sin?

WOW.
Where in the world do you get this?

Don’t answer.
This is a PERFECT example of SPIN.

I’m out. For good. What a horrible thread.

 

[JosieN]

WOW.
Where in the world do you get this?

Don’t answer.
This is a PERFECT example of SPIN.

I’m out. For good. What a horrible thread.

I am sorry if it appeared I was spinning it, I was sincerely trying to make some sense of this confusion. I cannot seem to get what we are apologizing about. How do Christians help to marginalize gay people? I would apologize to the gay community as a Christian if I knew what I did wrong to them. I am a sinner, we have that in common, the difference is I believe what the Bible teaches regarding homosexuality. My concern is that if I apologize for my belief that homosexuality is a sin, (in other words I am judging them based on the Bible’s teachings), that I would be saying the Bible is wrong.

 

[Seamus_L]

“The pope said people have a right to complain about certain gay-pride demonstrations that purposefully offend the faith or sensitivities of others”.
I fully support Russia's banning homosexual pride parades, and based on this quote from the Pope it appears he at least finds such views understandable.

 

[RPRPsych]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS

For being the worlds largest private provider of care to HIV/AIDS patients.
I apologize.

caritas.org.au/?gclid=CLmX6-n5yM0CFdhivAodS6wBvg
End poverty. Promote justice. Uphold dignity

For project compassion. I apologize!

Note that the people involved in this work are not asking for apologies. You are.

biblehub.com/revelation/3-16.htm

For refusing to be part of the church in Laodicea. I apologize.

And there we go again with the private interpretations of Sacred Scripture and the blanket condemnation of those who disagree with you. Whoopee.

 

[RPRPsych]

“The pope said people have a right to complain about certain gay-pride demonstrations that purposefully offend the faith or sensitivities of others”.

                                                I fully support Russia's banning homosexual pride parades, and based on this quote from the Pope it appears he at least finds such views understandable.

I knew Russia would come into it eventually…