Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[JosieN]

More actual context for these comments:

cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

I don’t think the Pope is suggesting Christians have some kind of specific guilt for actions against homosexuals, since he also mentions divorced persons, and his comments about “certain gay-pride demonstrations” indicate he is not giving the homosexual lobby a free pass, either. But I do think he draws a line between the “homosexual lobby” and “homosexual persons”. Not all who defend traditional values regarding homosexuality, seem able to do that.

As for what the Pope thinks Christians should apologize for. I think the Pope is referring to Christians who have done things such as kick kids out onto the street after they come out as gay, or completely shun family members who are homosexual and refuse to have anything to do with them. Or who endorse beating kids who are homosexual – I actually saw this happen on CAF, in response to a topic posing the hypothetical question “what would you do if one of your children came out as gay?” Although the poster who did so was roundly condemned by most others who replied, I think it’s folly to deny such “Christians” do exist.

I think that kind of behavior is quite different from refusing to attend a “same-sex wedding” or bake a cake celebrating such a union.

The majority of Christians mean no harm to gay people. A small minority of Christians would kick someone out if they were gay, but they are not good Christians, the majority of good Christians would pray for their souls, and show compassion to them but not in a way that would make them feel that their sinful lifestyle was pleasing to God, because that would be wrong also.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

No. He should NOT be quiet.
Bad things happen because people are quiet.
He should speak out. We have to live the Gospel. If he doesn’t promote Gospel values, you can expect more of the same awful things happening in our world.
We don’t support evil acts. We support people. And we hope to lead them to holiness.

I said that he should stop talking to reporters, not become dumb. At the very least, he should be more clear in his statements to avoid the twisting of the media.

 

[RPRPsych]

I said that he should stop talking to reporters, not become dumb. At the very least, he should be more clear in his statements to avoid the twisting of the media.

Unfortunately, this is a “damned if you don’t, damned if you do” situation.

Witness the furore over Benedict XVI and condoms. Half of the polemicists said “Hey, condoms are OK now”, the other said “Benedict is an evil modernist”, while the rest of us just saw the statement for what it was and moved on.

If Pope Francis had simply quoted CCC 2358 - “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” - there would still be some calling for his resignation, declaring him a false Pope, and using language that would make a sailor blush.

If he had quoted or alluded to another section, such as CCC 2359 - “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” - then they’d call him an evil bigot.

If he’d quoted both, they’d say he was being a Modernist waffler who sent out a mixed message.

There are some games you just can’t win, but as Pope, he can’t do what most of us do and simply “leave the playing field”.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

I find it disturbing that Christan’s are portrayed as gay-hatters. It is the community’s who have many Christians that have made the community more open and safe for those with same sex attractions. Meanwhile in atheist regions (China, Russia, India, Korea, ect) people with same sex attractions must remain “in the closet”. Further, in Islam dominated regions they get executed.

Now, I realize that the Catholic priest community has had a serious problem with pedofiles which has most likely lead many religious to be more open to extreme means (conservative or liberal) to adjust for such disruption of the generation of priests that expanded our leaders. I would consider Papa Fransis in such a generational extreme opinion. I know that much work has been done to heal those priests (spirituality, mentally, and administratively) but I often see that generation of priest being the most repenting towards same sex people. Their contrition is sincere and sometimes reflects back to make them look guilty. Now, pedofiles and homosexuals are not the same thing; as described by the findings of the USCCB reports, but the findings also demonstrated that many of the priests of that era were indeed chosen because “birds of a feather flock together”.

Extending this to other Christians we see women priests, homosexual priests, and so much more to show a growing section of this into the Christian community. Here again, I will point out that Non-Christains (atheists, Muslims, hindu’s, ect) are not growing in this same manner. Yet, there are angry gays challenging Christan’s on everything from adopting to holy orders. It feels like the choir is getting beat up, and Papa’s statement makes me feel that we need to hand everything to this community that is never satisfied.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

If we look into our past, there are many times when groups have been marginalized by humans using the Church teachings as an excuse. St. John Paul II apologized to many of these groups (Jews, Native Americans…etc). Pope Francis is continuing this work by apologizing to gays, the poor, exploited women and children.

For those that are put off by this, think of it this way. Let’s say you are having an argument with someone and you know you are right about your position. The person you are arguing with is clearly wrong, but during the course of the argument, you go too far. You insult that person. You belittle that person. You show a self-righteous side. How many have us done this, even right here on this board? We are the Church. And now our Pope is apologizing for us going too far. Of course not just us, but so many who have not stated their position in a charitable way.

We talk about gay people too much here, in my opinion, and very uncharitable things are said. They know our views. We don’t need to ram it down their throats.

Being right does not make it okay to be mean.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

ABOARD THE PAPAL FLIGHT FROM ARMENIA (CNS) — Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said.

“I think the church not only must say it is sorry to the gay person it has offended, but also to the poor, to exploited women” and anyone whom the church did not defend when it could, he told reporters June 26.

Spending close to an hour answering questions from reporters traveling with him, Pope Francis was asked to comment on remarks reportedly made a few days previously by Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the German bishops’ conference, that the Catholic Church must apologize to gay people for contributing to their marginalization.

At the mention of the massacre in early June at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, Pope Francis closed his eyes as if in pain and shook his head in dismay.

“The church must say it is sorry for not having behaved as it should many times, many times — when I say the ‘church,’ I mean we Christians because the church is holy; we are the sinners,” the pope said. “We Christians must say we are sorry.”

cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

As a priest and as a theologian, I am very grateful for what the Pope has actually said.

I have also followed with great interest, in the wake of the tragedy in Orlando, what has been written and what has been done by both the Bishop of Orlando and the Bishop of Saint Petersburg.

I look forward to the further statements that will surely soon be forthcoming from Pope Francis, from Cardinal Marx (and the other eight Cardinals who are the Pope’s closest advisers in the Council of Nine) as well as the other Bishops. These statements, in turn, will greatly help the theological community to better and more effectively serve the College of Bishops.

For those from Europe, I think it was especially poignant that Cardinal Marx’s statements were made precisely by Cardinal Marx…of Germany. There is such consciousness of how deeply the Jewish community – our elder sisters and brothers – were harmed across the centuries…and down to our time, reaching its awful apex with the Shoah…and this with blame both directly and indirectly rightly laid at the feet of Christians.

Words. Actions. Inactions. Hostility. Contempt. Such incredible darkness in the history of Jewish Christian relations. We have had to repent for that. Thanks be to God for the new turn in Jewish-Catholic relations marked by Nostra Aetate and then with the developments after Vatican II. I am so grateful to the Lord for the opportunity that was mine to be even a small part of that in the aftermath of the Council, which was an incredible, an inestimable gift of God to the Church.

In the same way, that it was the German – Cardinal Marx – who made this statement again and precisely as we prepare for the joint year long commemoration with our Lutheran sisters and brothers of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, also made it poignant. This year long commemoration will call forth our repentance and apology for the contributions of Catholics to rending the Body of Christ across the many past centuries.

In reading all of this, I can only remember with profound emotion the letter that Pope Benedict wrote to the Catholic bishops of the world in July 2007. He wrote a line that I have always kept near me, for its cautionary note:
Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today
How much, therefore do I give thanks to God for the visionary leadership of Pope Francis and of the bishops of the world, like Cardinal Marx…even as we feel deep regret and apologise for those of the past whom Pope Benedict laments…and we lament with him.

 

[graciew]

Unfortunately, this is a “damned if you don’t, damned if you do” situation.

Witness the furore over Benedict XVI and condoms. Half of the polemicists said “Hey, condoms are OK now”, the other said “Benedict is an evil modernist”, while the rest of us just saw the statement for what it was and moved on.

If Pope Francis had simply quoted CCC 2358 - “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” - there would still be some calling for his resignation, declaring him a false Pope, and using language that would make a sailor blush.

If he had quoted or alluded to another section, such as CCC 2359 - “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” - then they’d call him an evil bigot.

If he’d quoted both, they’d say he was being a Modernist waffler who sent out a mixed message.

There are some games you just can’t win, but as Pope, he can’t do what most of us do and simply “leave the playing field”.

Yes…agree…and also it would feel better if we could say " we " more often,don t you think so? Some faults are.more visible than others,however,God has fatherly eyes for us all.
And " feel" because there is certain shame that pulls at times for what we do or fail to do.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

If we look into our past, there are many times when groups have been marginalized by humans using the Church teachings as an excuse. St. John Paul II apologized to many of these groups (Jews, Native Americans…etc). Pope Francis is continuing this work by apologizing to gays, the poor, exploited women and children.

For those that are put off by this, think of it this way. Let’s say you are having an argument with someone and you know you are right about your position. The person you are arguing with is clearly wrong, but during the course of the argument, you go too far. You insult that person. You belittle that person. You show a self-righteous side. How many have us done this, even right here on this board? We are the Church. And now our Pope is apologizing for us going too far. Of course not just us, but so many who have not stated their position in a charitable way.

We talk about gay people too much here, in my opinion, and very uncharitable things are said. They know our views. We don’t need to ram it down their throats.

Being right does not make it okay to be mean.

I gladly associate myself with the sentiments that you express, above all in what you write relative to what can sadly be found expressed in posts.

On the other hand, I am very pleased to read the statements and the actions from the American bishops such as the BIshop of Saint Petersburg and the Bishop of Orlando…and I hope the bishops’ actions and the bishops’ words are expressive of the sentiments of those in the Church in the United States.

There is certainly deep pain in the Church in Europe as well as a sense of solidarity with those who were victims of or touched in any way by the tragic event in Orlando. I should hope that has come through especially in these past days.

 

[graciew]

If we look into our past, there are many times when groups have been marginalized by humans using the Church teachings as an excuse. St. John Paul II apologized to many of these groups (Jews, Native Americans…etc). Pope Francis is continuing this work by apologizing to gays, the poor, exploited women and children.

For those that are put off by this, think of it this way. Let’s say you are having an argument with someone and you know you are right about your position. The person you are arguing with is clearly wrong, but during the course of the argument, you go too far. You insult that person. You belittle that person. You show a self-righteous side. How many have us done this, even right here on this board? We are the Church. And now our Pope is apologizing for us going too far. Of course not just us, but so many who have not stated their position in a charitable way.

We talk about gay people too much here, in my opinion, and very uncharitable things are said. They know our views. We don’t need to ram it down their throats.

Being right does not make it okay to be mean.

Agree,Farmer.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

there would still be some calling for his resignation, declaring him a false Pope, and using language that would make a sailor blush.

It is, in fact, precisely the people who are saying such things against our Holy Father – the Successor of Peter, the very rock upon which the Church is built and endures – it is those people that are be denounced.

Across my priesthood, I have seen now a good number of popes. Of them all, how delighted I am that Good Pope John, who was also so maligned but who was in fact God’s gift to the Church and the world, is canonised. That Paul, who was such an extraordinary person, is beatified. And that John Paul II, one of the greatest men to ever occupy the Chair of Peter and one of the most incredible human beings one could hope to know, is also canonised.

We are so blessed now to have the Pope we have in Pope Francis.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

May I add, with sincere humility, my own apologies to the gay community, for anything I have written here that was over-the-top or offensive.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Once again Pope Francis rocks my world and makes me proud.

I would please like to see your written apology to gay people everywhere for all the hateful things you have said. Please post it here as an example so I can see what Francis *expects.

…what’s that?

…you never said anything hateful?

…you don’t think pope Francis was talking to you?*

Hmmm. Now you know how I feel.

 

[Lion_IRC]

I really do not understand this. How did Christians help marginalize homosexuals? Is it because Christians believe in sin and homosexuality is one of those sins? What about other types of sins? Should Christians apologize for marginalizing adulterers? The Christians I know do not hate homosexuals, they pray for their souls and for the souls of all sinners because they care about them and want their souls to go to heaven. I believe our focus should be on praying for their souls.

May Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior have mercy on us and on the whole world. Amen.

^this^
:clapping:

 

[SecretCatholic]

The Pope is taking lemons… and making lemonade. He’s “turning the other cheek”. What he said is absolutely correct.

The media and certain influential elements within the society are on a witch-hunt. They are out to prove that Christians are hypocrites and that Christianity as a whole either agrees with all their disordered views or is morally bankrupt.

Catholics, and in fact, all Christians should apologize to those they have marginalized. But here’s the thing- I don’t think most of us have marginalized “gays”. We’ve been very “tolerant”. In fact, I think too tolerant- so much so that we have often excused the sin out of compassion for the sinner- which is something we must NEVER do. Still, there are always some fringe “pastors” the media can keep running video of to prove that Christians are bad people and hate gays, women and so forth. So be it.

In the West, we are being discriminated against and experiencing a “soft persecution”. Our collective arm is being twisted so that we might cry “uncle” and simply let the world, the flesh and the devil destroy us by embracing the lie. We are sinners like everyone- but we as Christians know truth from the lie and we don’t pretend these are interchangeable or the same thing.

When we sin, we know we’ve done wrong and we go apologize and confess to Jesus Christ in the form of a priest. And then we try to do better. The world, the flesh and the devil not only want us to sin- they want us to pretend its not sin and therefore, not try to do better. We cannot do that.

The underlying message the media wants to broadcast here is that homosexuality is not a sin and that Christians have sinned against homosexuals. They also want to implicitly or even explicitly blame Christians for the Orlando attack. That’s the point of an “apology”. And that’s what some will hear. But, by agreeing to apologize, the Pope is acting humbly and even facing humiliation for the sake of the sinner.

The natural response is to stand up and defend yourself against patently false accusations from a party who is far from innocent. But that will make us defensive and unable to evangelize, which is exactly what they want. Just move on from the Pope’s statement and evangelize the world. Give it what it needs (evangelization)- even if we are the scapegoat- not what it wants (an enemy to point to).

 

[zamyrabyrd]

The Pope should just stop talking to the reporters. It seems that every time he does, he says something that’s able to be easily twisted to support evil. I think that we deserve an apology from the gays, not the other way around.

ditto

 

[peter26]

Another Papal press conference, another mini-crisis of faith on the horizon.

 

[Scottgun]

As another said, this pope is amazing and as usual, it helps to take his highly extemporaneous and generalized statements filtered usually through one language and always filtered through the media’s Orwellian language of Newspeak and get specific. So,

Some things that Christians would hypothetically need to apologize for:

Deliberately or willfully inciting or participating in violence against homosexuals.
Deliberately or willfully wishing, hoping, or praying for disaster or bad things to happen to homosexuals.
Believing that homosexuals are less than human and/or incapable of repentance and receiving God’s mercy.

Some things Christians never have to apologize for:

Stating truth. Namely, that human sexual contact is morally good in one context and one context alone: between a man and a woman married to each other and that anything else is an offense against Chastity and Divine Law

Avoiding doing or saying anything that would amount to formal or material cooperation with the “anything else” in that last statement.

 

[Sarcelle]

The Cathechism of the Catholic Church (2357) states that homosexual acts are disordered.

I exaggerated the point about people basing their identity on their sexuality (which I don’t think is limited to gay people, btw). But it certainly seems that people develop their identity around their sexuality and it can be increasingly seen in the development of a unique LGBT culture. Would you agree?

If a woman finds her vocation to marriage and raising a family, that’s fine. If she views her very identity and worth as a person solely on the ability to have children, then I would say yes, this is a problem.

Catholics should base their entire identity on being Catholic. If we really believe that God is the source of all good, then we should follow Him unceasingly and do everything for Him.

All other things such as sexuality, vocation, family, etc. each play a role in shaping our identity. But, we should not be solely identified by one of those things. That is the point I’m getting at.

 

[RPRPsych]

It is, in fact, precisely the people who are saying such things against our Holy Father – the Successor of Peter, the very rock upon which the Church is built and endures – it is those people that are be denounced.

Across my priesthood, I have seen now a good number of popes. Of them all, how delighted I am that Good Pope John, who was also so maligned but who was in fact God’s gift to the Church and the world, is canonised. That Paul, who was such an extraordinary person, is beatified. And that John Paul II, one of the greatest men to ever occupy the Chair of Peter and one of the most incredible human beings one could hope to know, is also canonised.

We are so blessed now to have the Pope we have in Pope Francis.

I agree with you, Father.

 

[Cheiron]

This view is a perfect example of what’s wrong with society. People are not disordered, sinful acts are. The Church never calls people disordered. We are beginning to see a world where people are only identified by their sexuality, and therefore, to view a certain sexual act as sinful is considered “bigotry” and degrading. In reality, by entirely basing your identity as a human on your sexuality, you’re only degrading yourself.

The Catholic Catechism says clearly that homosexual tendencies are objectively disordered. Homosexuality is innate, so yes, the Church does call people disordered. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has also said that “homosexuality is a troubling moral and social phenomenon.” The Catholic Church does not actually make a distinction between gay people and homosexual acts.

Condemning homosexual acts is also a bit strange in my opinion: it means that it’s okay to be a bird as long as you don’t fly. The objection that homosexuality is contrary to natural law - as the Catechism says - seems a bit strange too for precisely this reason.

Also, as someone else pointed out, no gay man bases his entire identity on his sexuality alone. But when politicians and a global Church with over a billion members want to deny LGBT people equal rights in their pursuit of happiness, it does become a big part of their identity.

People misunderstand the definition of “disordered”. Men and women are “ordered” for each other; their bodies are complimentary. Men and Men or women and women, are not “ordered” for each other…their bodies are not complimentary, and are thus “disordered”. Perhaps there is a better way of phrasing it, but its still the truth.

Also, you say its “dishonest”…how? Is it a lie that men and women’s bodies are complimentary?

I think it’s dishonest to simultaneously condemn homosexuality as a form of sin and say that LGBT people should be accepted with “respect, compassion and sensitivity”. I don’t know whether it’s theologically true or not.

It’s also dishonest that the Church itself does not seem to be bound by these rules. When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said that “homosexuality is troubling moral and social phenomenon,” did it treat LGBT people with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” that the Catechism (and ordinary human decency) says they deserve? The answer is obviously no.

I would suspect that Marx would disagree with your interpretation of his statements. I doubt the Cardinal subscribes to heresy.

I didn’t imply, nor did I intend to imply that the Cardinal subscribes to heresy. Perhaps I put it rather bluntly, but it’s clear to me that Cardinal Marx feels uneasy with the harsh condemnation of gay people when he sees that they can have loving and faithful relationships too.