Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[peter26]

I think it’s dishonest to simultaneously condemn homosexuality as a form of sin and say that LGBT people should be accepted with “respect, compassion and sensitivity”. I don’t know whether it’s theologically true or not.

It’s also dishonest that the Church itself does not seem to be bound by these rules. When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said that “homosexuality is troubling moral and social phenomenon,” did it treat LGBT people with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” that the Catechism (and ordinary human decency) says they deserve? The answer is obviously no.

You are right, it is dishonest and disingenuous. Its trying to have the best of both worlds essentially. And it doesn’t stack up as a matter of logic.Either homosexual acts are immoral or not. The Church has always said that they are. If we therefore go with that at least as being the position of the Church, that leaves us with the position that homosexual lifestyles are, at least according to the Church’s teaching, disordered and immoral and that surely this message needs to be preached in order that sinners can be brought to repentance and reconciled to God. It flows from this that a culture of acceptance of homosexual lifestyles can not be consistent with the teachings of the Church. In this sense, Francis is being very disingenuous and confusing people.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You are right, it is dishonest and disingenuous. Its trying to have the best of both worlds essentially. And it doesn’t stack up as a matter of logic.Either homosexual acts are immoral or not. The Church has always said that they are. If we therefore go with that at least as being the position of the Church, that leaves us with the position that homosexual lifestyles are, at least according to the Church’s teaching, disordered and immoral and that surely this message needs to be preached in order that sinners can be brought to repentance and reconciled to God. It flows from this that a culture of acceptance of homosexual lifestyles can not be consistent with the teachings of the Church. In this sense, Francis is being very disingenuous and confusing people.

The Pope is being anything but dishonest or disingenuous. I hope the bishops of the world, in their respective dioceses, will begin implementing what the Holy Father has called for – relative to ALL the people he has said need to be addressed.

 

[SilverLight]

The Pope should just stop talking to the reporters. It seems that every time he does, he says something that’s able to be easily twisted to support evil. I think that we deserve an apology from the gays, not the other way around.

I don’t feel I need an apology from anyone except a few single people not a group.

 

[Bill_Martin]

Or maybe stop flying on airplanes. That seems to be the time he gets into trouble.

Francis Declares Plane Interviews New Authoritative Form Of Magisterial Teaching

 

[on_the_hill]

Francis Declares Plane Interviews New Authoritative Form Of Magisterial Teaching

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I would please like to see your written apology to gay people everywhere for all the hateful things you have said. Please post it here as an example so I can see what Francis *expects.

…what’s that?

…you never said anything hateful?

…you don’t think pope Francis was talking to you?*

Hmmm. Now you know how I feel.

It is not simply what we personally may or may not have said. I think Courage International provides an excellent model in what it has published on its website, quoting the Holy See:

*STATEMENT OF COURAGE INTERNATIONAL REGARDING THE MASSACRE AT PULSE ORLANDO

Like all people of good will, Courage International condemns the atrocious violence perpetrated at Pulse Orlando in the early hours of June 12, 2016. We make our own the words of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which insisted nearly 30 years ago:“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.”

In the face of such outrageous violence and loss of life, human words and explanations fall short, and so people of faith look to the everlasting mercy and compassion of almighty God, who “is near to the broken-hearted, and saves the crushed in spirit” (Psalm 34:18 RSV). Courage International calls on all of its members to pray for the eternal rest of those who were murdered, and for the consolation of their families and loved ones. Courage International stands committed to proclaiming and living the Gospel demands of charity, respect for human dignity, and solidarity in the pursuit of righteousness, which are essential for building a society of true justice and peace.
*
couragerc.org/statement-courage-international-regarding-massacre-pulse-orlando/

And Archbishop Blaise Cupich provides a wonderful model to follow for his archdiocese and beyond. How can the words “The Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you” be anything but powerful:

*“For you here today and throughout the whole lesbian and gay community, who are particularly touched by the heinous crimes committed in Orlando, motivated by hate, driven perhaps by mental instability and certainly empowered by a culture of violence, know this: The Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you,” the archbishop said in the letter.

“Let our shared grief and our common faith in Jesus, who called the persecuted blessed, unite us,” he continued, “so that hatred and intolerance are not allowed to flourish, so that those who suffer mental illness know the support of a compassionate society, so that we find the courage to face forthrightly the falsehood that weapons of combat belong anywhere in the civilian population.”

That same day, Archbishop Cupich also released a statement to the public.

“Our prayers and hearts are with the victims of the mass shooting in Orlando, their families and our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters,” the statement read. "The people of the Archdiocese of Chicago stand with the victims and their loved ones, and reaffirm our commitment, with Pope Francis, to address the causes of such tragedy…*
Certainly, I find great inspiration from the Pope and from his words. Each of us must try to find ways to accomplish what His Holiness challenges us to do in outreach to these communities.

In spite of being a priest now old and retired, I look forward to exploring with my priest confreres ways that we can help to get these messages from His Holiness and from the bishops of Europe and the United States greater extension.

 

[irishpatrick]

Serious questions:

What other acts previously seen as being mortally sinful should now entice Christians to apologize to those who have committed those acts (abortion? fornication? living together? contraception? etc)…perhaps Christians should just apologize to everyone and be done with it?

 

[irishpatrick]

It is not simply what we personally may or may not have said. I think Courage International provides an excellent model in what it has published on its website, quoting the Holy See:

*STATEMENT OF COURAGE INTERNATIONAL REGARDING THE MASSACRE AT PULSE ORLANDO

Like all people of good will, Courage International condemns the atrocious violence perpetrated at Pulse Orlando in the early hours of June 12, 2016. We make our own the words of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which insisted nearly 30 years ago:“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.”

In the face of such outrageous violence and loss of life, human words and explanations fall short, and so people of faith look to the everlasting mercy and compassion of almighty God, who “is near to the broken-hearted, and saves the crushed in spirit” (Psalm 34:18 RSV). Courage International calls on all of its members to pray for the eternal rest of those who were murdered, and for the consolation of their families and loved ones. Courage International stands committed to proclaiming and living the Gospel demands of charity, respect for human dignity, and solidarity in the pursuit of righteousness, which are essential for building a society of true justice and peace.
*
couragerc.org/statement-courage-international-regarding-massacre-pulse-orlando/

And Archbishop Blaise Cupich provides a wonderful model to follow for his archdiocese and beyond. How can the words “The Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you” be anything but powerful:

*“For you here today and throughout the whole lesbian and gay community, who are particularly touched by the heinous crimes committed in Orlando, motivated by hate, driven perhaps by mental instability and certainly empowered by a culture of violence, know this: The Archdiocese of Chicago stands with you. I stand with you,” the archbishop said in the letter.

“Let our shared grief and our common faith in Jesus, who called the persecuted blessed, unite us,” he continued, “so that hatred and intolerance are not allowed to flourish, so that those who suffer mental illness know the support of a compassionate society, so that we find the courage to face forthrightly the falsehood that weapons of combat belong anywhere in the civilian population.”

That same day, Archbishop Cupich also released a statement to the public.

“Our prayers and hearts are with the victims of the mass shooting in Orlando, their families and our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters,” the statement read. "The people of the Archdiocese of Chicago stand with the victims and their loved ones, and reaffirm our commitment, with Pope Francis, to address the causes of such tragedy…*
Certainly, I find great inspiration from the Pope and from his words. Each of us must try to find ways to accomplish what His Holiness challenges us to do in outreach to these communities.

In spite of being a priest now old and retired, I look forward to exploring with my priest confreres ways that we can help to get these messages from His Holiness and from the bishops of Europe and the United States greater extension.

I do wonder, while we are called to be compassionate, and we are called to consider our own sins before we consider the sins of others, whatever happened to the call to go and sin no more? Does repenting of sin mean anything today? If not, was it ever valid? Should all Christians look the other way when those around them sin?

The Pope is wonderful and I applaud his boldness, yet he does seem to leave the other half of the Gospel message. He speaks wonderfully of God’s love and mercy and forgiveness, yet where is the other side? Is there not going to be a final judgment? Are all souls, not matter their sins or lack of repentane, going to Heaven?

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I come from a generation where sexuality was not discussed openly in polite society. In the Catholic School I went to for 12 years, I don’t remember homosexuality being mentioned at all, much less condemning actual people. Any stigma came mainly from secular society, not from the Church.

There may be a positive and negative aspect to what was once consigned to whispers and innuendos. I read recently about troubled individuals who were able to turn their lives around thanks to the compassion and love of Catholic communities. Most, if not all, were lonely individuals who got marginalized due to shame about the nature of their attractions, so dug themselves deeper into a lifestyle that did not really give them any peace.

The negative aspect is of course letting everything hang out so that the very act of bringing it out in the open seems like an invitation to normalization. I submit it was better in the past before Gay / Straight Alliances were forced on schools, before Pride Parades became a feature in every large city, before it invaded the Scout Movement - I don’t even want to go on.

The problem here is reverse discrimination and calling for special rights. The problem is destroying the institution of marriage, the very pillar of society, any high civilization, that is. The problem is not so much troubled individuals who should receive love and help but a sneaky agenda that wants to piggyback and change the very nature of society to make it genderless.

This is a totalitarian putsch that would take any remaining power from the the nuclear family to better control modular individuals dependent on the State, and of course away from what they would say is the pernicious influence of religion. There are plenty of gays who still believe that children should have a mother and father. But the agenda is louder than they are. Such people may want to live in peace and not bother anyone else but the normalization of homosexuality is really a political issue.

Separating compassion for individuals and drawing a line where it impinges on civil institutions and public morality is necessary. This is a tricky, complex issue. I happen to believe in the “greatest good for the greatest number” and not forcing the rest of society into abnormalities like allowing biological men in women’s restrooms. That’s where the agenda leads to, starting from the so-called “sexual revolution”. When there is an absurd premise the conclusions will also be absurd.

 

[estesbob]

ABOARD THE PAPAL FLIGHT FROM ARMENIA (CNS) — Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said.

“I think the church not only must say it is sorry to the gay person it has offended, but also to the poor, to exploited women” and anyone whom the church did not defend when it could, he told reporters June 26.

Spending close to an hour answering questions from reporters traveling with him, Pope Francis was asked to comment on remarks reportedly made a few days previously by Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the German bishops’ conference, that the Catholic Church must apologize to gay people for contributing to their marginalization.

At the mention of the massacre in early June at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, Pope Francis closed his eyes as if in pain and shook his head in dismay.

“The church must say it is sorry for not having behaved as it should many times, many times — when I say the ‘church,’ I mean we Christians because the church is holy; we are the sinners,” the pope said. “We Christians must say we are sorry.”

cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

Headline should read"Pope affirms Church Teaching on Homosexuality"

 

[PTL]

The problem here is reverse discrimination and calling for special rights. The problem is destroying the institution of marriage, the very pillar of society, any high civilization, that is. The problem is not so much troubled individuals who should receive love and help but a sneaky agenda that wants to piggyback and change the very nature of society to make it genderless.

This is a totalitarian putsch that would take any remaining power from the the nuclear family to better control modular individuals dependent on the State, and of course away from what they would say is the pernicious influence of religion. There are plenty of gays who still believe that children should have a mother and father. But the agenda is louder than they are. Such people may want to live in peace and not bother anyone else but the normalization of homosexuality is really a political issue.

People are losing common sense. How sad. Civilization is quickly destroyed.
Keep in mind we must go through such tribulations when the end is near.

 

[MacBP]

To say that people struggling with homosexuality “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity” when they have just been condemned as “intrinsically disordered” is very disingenuous and dishonest. To call it love and mercy makes the situation even worse. It is this very hypocrisy that pushes people away from the Church.

Perhaps you can elaborate on that line of reasoning? I see no contradiction between those two statements and I would say that exact reasoning is applied to every Catholic regardless of their sexual orientation.

So take me for example. I have the grave misfortune of being cowardly, quick to anger, and lustful in nature. I don’t choose to have any of these traits — in fact I actively work to correct them — and so you could say that they are a part of me.

Moreover, the Catholic Church would say that these desires are “disordered” because they they aren’t “oriented” towards their appropriate ends. A desire for protection, safety and comfort is good, but when it becomes excessive (as in cowardice) that desire is disordered. A desire for justice and fairness is good, but when it becomes wrathful and intemperate that desire is disordered. Finally, desire for sexual intimacy and companionship is good, but when that desire comes at the expense of the dignity of others that desire is disordered. And it isn’t just me. Any individual, unless they are a saint, has these disordered desires. Catholic-Christians believe it is a result of the fall.

Yet despite the fact that we’re all intrinsically disordered, many of us have been treated with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Yes, I am a broken person, but the goal here is to orient my desire’s with God’s Will.

I am sure many people in committed same-sex relationships would resent the implication that their no-doubt loving and committed relationships aren’t oriented towards the right place. I have also no doubt that many heterosexual individuals would resent the suggestion that premarital sex, contraception and masturbation are disordered. I’m just not sure the possibility of feeling resentment precludes the possibility of being treated with love, sensitivity and respect.

In summary, if I’ve been treated with love, sensitivity and respect despite the fact that I’m intrinsically disordered, I’m a little skeptical that the Church is hypocritical for saying they can do the same in other circumstances.

 

[JimG]

I come from a generation where sexuality was not discussed openly in polite society. In the Catholic School I went to for 12 years, I don’t remember homosexuality being mentioned at all, much less condemning actual people. Any stigma came mainly from secular society, not from the Church.

There may be a positive and negative aspect to what was once consigned to whispers and innuendos. I read recently about troubled individuals who were able to turn their lives around thanks to the compassion and love of Catholic communities. Most, if not all, were lonely individuals who got marginalized due to shame about the nature of their attractions, so dug themselves deeper into a lifestyle that did not really give them any peace.

The negative aspect is of course letting everything hang out so that the very act of bringing it out in the open seems like an invitation to normalization. I submit it was better in the past before Gay / Straight Alliances were forced on schools, before Pride Parades became a feature in every large city, before it invaded the Scout Movement - I don’t even want to go on.

The problem here is reverse discrimination and calling for special rights. The problem is destroying the institution of marriage, the very pillar of society, any high civilization, that is. The problem is not so much troubled individuals who should receive love and help but a sneaky agenda that wants to piggyback and change the very nature of society to make it genderless.

This is a totalitarian putsch that would take any remaining power from the the nuclear family to better control modular individuals dependent on the State, and of course away from what they would say is the pernicious influence of religion. There are plenty of gays who still believe that children should have a mother and father. But the agenda is louder than they are. Such people may want to live in peace and not bother anyone else but the normalization of homosexuality is really a political issue.

Separating compassion for individuals and drawing a line where it impinges on civil institutions and public morality is necessary. This is a tricky, complex issue. I happen to believe in the “greatest good for the greatest number” and not forcing the rest of society into abnormalities like allowing biological men in women’s restrooms. That’s where the agenda leads to, starting from the so-called “sexual revolution”. When there is an absurd premise the conclusions will also be absurd.

My sentiments as well. Thank you for expressing it so well.

 

[Seamus_L]

I strongly suspect that most people in the homosexual community feel they are being marginalized when people oppose same sex marriage, adoption by homosexual couples, or tell them that they are called to life of celebacy.

 

[pianistclare]

I said that he should stop talking to reporters, not become dumb. At the very least, he should be more clear in his statements to avoid the twisting of the media.

No, the reporters should have integrity. Ask questions. Report TRUTH.
Not what will sell papers.

It is the responsibility of the person reporting to do so with accuracy.

I guess we should all take our missals and hide under a rick?
That’s not what Christ preached,
Go out to all nations…He was widely misinterpreted and outright lied about, remember?
He didn’t turn tail and run, nor did He temper His words. He taught. Francis TEACHES.

 

[shockerfan]

I think it’s dishonest to simultaneously condemn homosexuality as a form of sin and say that LGBT people should be accepted with “respect, compassion and sensitivity”. I don’t know whether it’s theologically true or not.

It’s also dishonest that the Church itself does not seem to be bound by these rules. When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said that “homosexuality is troubling moral and social phenomenon,” did it treat LGBT people with the “respect, compassion and sensitivity” that the Catechism (and ordinary human decency) says they deserve? The answer is obviously no.

I would disagree with your use of the term “dishonest”. That word implies an intentional variance from truth. I have made no intentional effort, nor has the Church made an intentional effort to vary from the truth. You just disagree with the Church and myself on what is “truth”.

The Church separates the person from the action. You seem to link them. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

You list your religion as “Secular Humanism”, which seems to me has a fair amount of subjectivity in determining what is “truth”. I believe there is an objective truth based on natural law and revelation.

You also have an issue with the Church declaring homosexuality (the actions) as being immoral. I realize you have a different worldview, however, understand from the perspective of the Church, that God has revealed sex to be used in the context of a man/woman marriage, and that sex outside of that context is dangerous to one’s soul. So you tell me, what is more hateful, to tell someone the error in their way in hopes that they might receive everlasting life with the Creator OR to let them continue on their path to their immortal destruction?

We might disagree with what is “truth”, but please don’t impugn the motives of myself or the Church.

 

[estesbob]

I strongly suspect that most people in the homosexual community feel they are being marginalized when people oppose same sex marriage, adoption by homosexual couples, or tell them that they are called to life of celebacy.

Just as people of faith feel marginalized when they see state imposed bastardization of the institutions of of family and marriage.

 

[philipl]

Am I my brother’s keeper? I think so, for ALL our brothers and sisters. The Pope is not only right to speak out on this and other issues but he has an obligation to do so.

BTW, I have always taken “My brothers keeper” to mean if my brother is doing wrong, then I am to show him the correct way. Not I am every bit as guilty as my brother

 

[Justin_Swanton]

I come from a generation where sexuality was not discussed openly in polite society. In the Catholic School I went to for 12 years, I don’t remember homosexuality being mentioned at all, much less condemning actual people. Any stigma came mainly from secular society, not from the Church.

There may be a positive and negative aspect to what was once consigned to whispers and innuendos. I read recently about troubled individuals who were able to turn their lives around thanks to the compassion and love of Catholic communities. Most, if not all, were lonely individuals who got marginalized due to shame about the nature of their attractions, so dug themselves deeper into a lifestyle that did not really give them any peace.

The negative aspect is of course letting everything hang out so that the very act of bringing it out in the open seems like an invitation to normalization. I submit it was better in the past before Gay / Straight Alliances were forced on schools, before Pride Parades became a feature in every large city, before it invaded the Scout Movement - I don’t even want to go on.

The problem here is reverse discrimination and calling for special rights. The problem is destroying the institution of marriage, the very pillar of society, any high civilization, that is. The problem is not so much troubled individuals who should receive love and help but a sneaky agenda that wants to piggyback and change the very nature of society to make it genderless.

This is a totalitarian putsch that would take any remaining power from the the nuclear family to better control modular individuals dependent on the State, and of course away from what they would say is the pernicious influence of religion. There are plenty of gays who still believe that children should have a mother and father. But the agenda is louder than they are. Such people may want to live in peace and not bother anyone else but the normalization of homosexuality is really a political issue.

Separating compassion for individuals and drawing a line where it impinges on civil institutions and public morality is necessary. This is a tricky, complex issue. I happen to believe in the “greatest good for the greatest number” and not forcing the rest of society into abnormalities like allowing biological men in women’s restrooms. That’s where the agenda leads to, starting from the so-called “sexual revolution”. When there is an absurd premise the conclusions will also be absurd.

This is bang on the money. It is absolutely essential to put the whole wringing-one’s-hands-before-gays into context. The vast majority of homosexuals/lesbians, or at least of those who have publicly declared themselves, are not interested in being treated with respect/compassion - and even apologised to - whilst they wrestle with their disordered inclinations and struggle to live a life in accord with God’s will. They are interested in having their disordered inclinations recognised on the same level as a heterosexual union. Hence the legalisation of their lifestyle and legal punitive measures taken against anyone who publicly rejects it.

I don’t know how it works elsewhere, but in English-speaking countries like the US and the UK (and South Africa) the average citizen is prepared to consider something as right - or at least not really wrong - once it is legal. The law forms or deforms the conscience a good deal more than we perhaps realise. Recognition of a homosexual lifestyle in the public sphere inevitably leads people to believe homosexuality itself is not really that bad. The technical term for this is ***scandal ***- not shocking prudes, but leading souls into thinking that sin is good.

To say that the Church in the past mistreated homosexuals means what exactly? In the past such individuals did not make their proclivities known in the public forum because the public forum did not tolerate it for the reasons given above. The wrongness of homosexual and lesbian sex was firmly fixed in people’s minds. However I am not aware of Catholic witchhunts for homosexuals or lesbians. They kept their homosexuality/lesbianism to themselves and no-one bothered them. The Church certainly didn’t. It just spelled out the evil of active homosexuality, numbering it among the four sins crying to heaven for vengeance. And that’s the catechism, not me.

In consequence we need to keep clear of, anything, anything, that looks like joining the lemming pack. We don’t have to apologise to homosexuals who will take - and broadcast - our apology as an approbation of their homosexuality. We don’t need to make a song and dance about showing them “sensitivity” and “compassion”. The general commandment of charity covers that already. We do need to point out, without ceasing, the social ruin caused by a sexuality that has escaped the moral bounds imposed by God. In a word, we need to keep our Catholic heads on our shoulders. Lemmings don’t end well.

 

[peter26]

The statement that something is sinful and disordered of course has the effect of marginalising anyone who not only engages in that act but identifies with and partakes in a culture and lifestyle based around that sinful act. Francis statement in condemning marginalising gays condemns speaking the truth about this subject. That is I think a fair and logic conclusion from this statement.

This statement is another departure from the traditions and doctrines of the Church.

For instance

CCC 2357: Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.