Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[Don_Ruggero]

I assume the fault of the crisis was because they were overly legalistic. What exactly does that mean? In what ways would that exist today? It seems like a broad statement.

Are you surprised that a bishop could appear even overly attentive to the observance of law?

It was on an issue of liturgical diversity about which many bishops raised concerns with the Holy See because of their role as moderators of the liturgy and because of the norm of law as well as accounting for a hermaneutical principle. A more pastoral, not to say more paternal response, was over-passed in favour of a more legally exact preference that afforded little latitude.

Pope Benedict was seeking to assuage the concern of the bishops about the change and about the process by which he came to his determination, about which he had issued a decree.

The Holy Father addressed them by saying:
*In conclusion, dear Brothers, I very much wish to stress that these new norms do not in any way lessen your own authority and responsibility, either for the liturgy or for the pastoral care of your faithful…

Nothing is taken away, then, from the authority of the Bishop, whose role remains that of being watchful that all is done in peace and serenity…*
Pope Benedict’s correspondence actually was always marked by the most personal style and the most endearing voice in which he chose to write. He is the same in conversation.

Returning to an earlier point in this thread…this was not a matter of doctrine but of discipline. Nevertheless it was, however, to be accepted by clergy and laity alike with the obedience of complete and total submission because the Pope had decreed it and there is no recourse to the Pope’s decree.
Can 333 §3. No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

 

[meltzerboy]

x

Actually…if I may say, as a priest who lived in a certain moment in time and in a certain place, you have glossed over much and even too much…and been far too charitable; justice has its own demands.

Charity is a magnanimous gift on the one hand…but there are moments when one is not to spare people from confronting what they should be forced to look upon with un-shielded eye so that they may thereafter raise their eyes to Heaven to plead in intercessory prayer for what had been and which they cannot in any way deny. And be shaken to the very core of their being by what they are forced to confront.

There is, for very good reason, a different attitude in Europe after the war about squarely confronting the historical past and coming to terms with it…it is not as fulsome yet as it needs to be but much better than in a time I can yet distantly, but distinctly, recall.

Perhaps you are right, Father, having the “advantage” of being there while the events were unfolding. I was trying to show that at least some of the damage caused by the European mindset of the time has, in retrospect, been reevaluated; but there is no doubt in my mind that one cannot and should not sweep it all under the rug.

 

[Lea101]

What’s all the drama here about

He is referring to the Christians who discriminate gay people, the parents that kick their children out of their homes for being gay, the people who call gay people *ags, the Christians that support the death penalty for gay people, and so on. THEY are the ones that need to apologize. And even if he was referring to all of us…There is nothing wrong in saying “hey, I’m sorry there are some Christians who hurt you. We aren’t supposed to and we will defend you should anyone were to do that again” Let go of your pride. When we tell them that we aren’t supposed to be ***holes, that’s how we slowly get rid of the negative stereotypes. No. We don’t have to dance around naked with a rainbow flag. We just have to apologize for the terrible deeds, we don’t have to support homosexuality.

Like how pope john paul apologized to women for the way how they were treated, although he was not at fault.

Like how white people apologize to black people. “I’m sorry that there are white people that treated you terribly”

And so on.

 

[Sarcelle]

This is an uncharitable thread: uncharitable toward the Pope, uncharitable toward gay people, uncharitable toward, for most of you, your own religion, Catholicism.

You are taking the Pope’s words too personally: he is not saying every Catholic or Christian is to blame and should apologize, nor is he saying the Church is directly responsible for the murder that took place in Orlando. He is speaking about the obligation we all have (not only Catholics) toward the care and welfare of our fellow human beings, whoever they may be. In other words, acts of love rather than recriminations are what is needed in the world.

 

[TMC]

Maybe you could explain it as I am still learning as I go to these forums.

I googled it and got various sites explaining it but I would like to hear your view.

Seems like you know the answer, but I will give you my top-of-head thoughts. At various times in Church history the Church actively persecuted Jewish people. In some eras, Jews were forced to convert on pain of torture and even death. At times, Jews were barred from certain professions, and sometimes forced to live in certain areas of cities That is the origin of the word “ghetto,” the “ghetto” was the part of Italian cities where Jews were allowed to live. Christians blamed Jews for the death of Jesus and believed that a “blood curse” lay on all Jewish people, which in turn resulted in more discrimination and atrocities. The Church has acknowledged, repeatedly, that the Church played a role in those acts of oppression.

 

[TMC]

The Pope at the press conference was being asked to clarify a position concerning the actions of one of the Cardinals who is in his inner circle – a member of the council of nine.

The Pope’s directives on this issue go beyond what he said on the airplane and actually are informing statements other bishops are, in fact, making.

Yes, absolutely. I would also remind that the Pope explicitly said that he was explaining the teaching of the Catechisms and described his words as “a sermon.” He was not merely chatting with some people who happened to be on the plane with him. He was teaching, and providing that teaching to reporters so that it would be spread amongst the faithful.

 

[JimG]

Off topic, but reading this thread gives me an idea for a new university course—The Apology Tour 101. It would cover such subjects as these: Moses should apologize to Ramses for causing disruption in Egypt. The British should apologize to William the Conqueror for resisting the Norman invasion. General MacArthur should apologize to the North Korean and Chinese Communists for pushing back against their invasion of South Korea. Thomas More should apologize posthumously to Henry VIII for interfering with his marriage plans. But mostly, the Catholic Church should apologize to everyone for nearly every bad thing that has ever occurred. The course would be taught by a team of apologetic Catholics rather than Catholic apologists.

 

[estesbob]

So I guess i need some Pastoral guidance here. if the pope has indeed (via a press conference" decreed all Catholics must apologize for marginalizing gays to whom do i apologize and to what do i apologize for? Do apologize for adhering to my Church’s teachings on homosexual behavior? Do i apologize to my gay daughter for not rejecting my faith when she came out? Do I apologize to her wife for not quitting a church that teaches she is not a 'wife" at all?

 

[TCEL]

What’s all the drama here about

He is referring to the Christians who discriminate gay people, the parents that kick their children out of their homes for being gay, the people who call gay people *ags, the Christians that support the death penalty for gay people, and so on. THEY are the ones that need to apologize. And even if he was referring to all of us…There is nothing wrong in saying “hey, I’m sorry there are some Christians who hurt you. We aren’t supposed to and we will defend you should anyone were to do that again” Let go of your pride. When we tell them that we aren’t supposed to be ***holes, that’s how we slowly get rid of the negative stereotypes. No. We don’t have to dance around naked with a rainbow flag. We just have to apologize for the terrible deeds, we don’t have to support homosexuality.

Like how pope john paul apologized to women for the way how they were treated, although he was not at fault.

Like how white people apologize to black people. “I’m sorry that there are white people that treated you terribly”

And so on.

My sentiments, too.

I think people are concerned that if you give an inch, people will take a mile. Which I also think is a legitimate concern. Oh well. If that is the cross we are called to carry and offer up, then so be it. In the meantime, I will hunker down and continue to try to raise any children I have in the light of truth. I might do some unholy whining in the process too, but I pray that Mary can refine it into something good.

Several years ago, I wrote a note to someone who is gay saying that God loves them more than they can possibly imagine, and they are of more worth than anything. Or something like that. That was it. I don’t know if they read it or not, but I can’t imagine they would have taken it as an endorsement. For all I know, they read it and were even more offended. Who knows. But I felt it important to say.

 

[KSU]

Good Pope Francis (and I mean that literally) would agree that apologies all around would be appropriate, including from Jews, because:

*Their ancestors practiced direct (e.g., Saul) and indirect (e.g., support of the Romans’) genocide against Christians;

• Their ancestors sided with the Muslim barbarians who slaughtered Christian men, women and children; stole the Holy Land from them, and then murdered Christian pilgrims to that blood-soaked land;
• Their ancestors established a fifth column against Catholic Spain in its war with the invading Muslims;
• Their ancestors established a modern, openly anti-Catholic position for Jewry, viz: “Throughout the long nineteenth century, myriad Jewish intellectuals, politicians, and activists employed anti-Catholic tropes wherever questions of political and national belonging were at stake: in theoretical treatises, parliamentary speeches, newspaper debates, the founding moments of the Reform movement, and campaigns against antisemitism.” sup.org/books/title/?id=23227 ; and finally, because
• The ‘immense’ and ‘outsized’ Jewish role in the US mass media and cultural life which has been the single most important factor in shaping American attitudes over the past century, and in driving major cultural- political changes. ihr.org/other/biden_jewish_role

Obviously, whether the last point above is considered very progressive and thereby good, or a disastrous and outrageous in-your-face degradation of traditional American culture, depends on one’s politics and religion. Personally, every time I hear our Lord’s name taken in vain, seemingly in ever other sentence of our filth-filled, PG-rated “entertainment”, and when I see on live TV the booing of the inclusion of the word “God” in the platform of a major political Party, the answer to that is clear–it’s been a disaster; an offense to God.

For those who may be offended by my Catholic outlook on life, remember that this is an orthodox (thank God) Catholic Forum. And taking a page out of Don Ruggero’s book, I “have glossed over much and even too much…and been far too charitable; justice has its own demands.”

It would be very easy to craft another post such as this; a post regarding why Pope Francis would not deem it inappropriate for homosexuals to apologize to the Church. To give a proper understanding and summation of the Holy Father’s words, suffice it to say that everyone has good reason to apologize to everyone else.

 

[StudentMI]

So I guess i need some Pastoral guidance here. if the pope has indeed (via a press conference" decreed all Catholics must apologize for marginalizing gays to whom do i apologize and to what do i apologize for? Do apologize for adhering to my Church’s teachings on homosexual behavior? Do i apologize to my gay daughter for not rejecting my faith when she came out? Do I apologize to her wife for not quitting a church that teaches she is not a 'wife" at all?

He didn’t say that. Please read the Jimmy Akin article.

 

[TMC]

Good Pope Francis (and I mean that literally) would agree that apologies all around would be appropriate, including from Jews, because:

*Their ancestors practiced direct (e.g., Saul) and indirect (e.g., support of the Romans’) genocide against Christians;

• Their ancestors sided with the Muslim barbarians who slaughtered Christian men, women and children; stole the Holy Land from them, and then murdered Christian pilgrims to that blood-soaked land;
• Their ancestors established a fifth column against Catholic Spain in its war with the invading Muslims;
• Their ancestors established a modern, openly anti-Catholic position for Jewry, viz: “Throughout the long nineteenth century, myriad Jewish intellectuals, politicians, and activists employed anti-Catholic tropes wherever questions of political and national belonging were at stake: in theoretical treatises, parliamentary speeches, newspaper debates, the founding moments of the Reform movement, and campaigns against antisemitism.” sup.org/books/title/?id=23227 ; and finally, because
• The ‘immense’ and ‘outsized’ Jewish role in the US mass media and cultural life which has been the single most important factor in shaping American attitudes over the past century, and in driving major cultural- political changes. ihr.org/other/biden_jewish_role

Obviously, whether the last point above is considered very progressive and thereby good, or a disastrous and outrageous in-your-face degradation of traditional American culture, depends on one’s politics and religion. Personally, every time I hear our Lord’s name taken in vain, seemingly in ever other sentence of our filth-filled, PG-rated “entertainment”, and when I see on live TV the booing of the inclusion of the word “God” in the platform of a major political Party, the answer to that is clear–it’s been a disaster; an offense to God.

For those who may be offended by my Catholic outlook on life, remember that this is an orthodox (thank God) Catholic Forum. And taking a page out of Don Ruggero’s book, I “have glossed over much and even too much…and been far too charitable; justice has its own demands.”

It would be very easy to craft another post such as this; a post regarding why Pope Francis would not deem it inappropriate for homosexuals to apologize to the Church. To give a proper understanding and summation of the Holy Father’s words, suffice it to say that everyone has good reason to apologize to everyone else.

Quoting Holocaust deniers is not the most credible way to make a point. I think you should reconsider your sources on Jewish issues.

 

[meltzerboy]

Good Pope Francis (and I mean that literally) would agree that apologies all around would be appropriate, including from Jews, because:

*Their ancestors practiced direct (e.g., Saul) and indirect (e.g., support of the Romans’) genocide against Christians;

• Their ancestors sided with the Muslim barbarians who slaughtered Christian men, women and children; stole the Holy Land from them, and then murdered Christian pilgrims to that blood-soaked land;
• Their ancestors established a fifth column against Catholic Spain in its war with the invading Muslims;
• Their ancestors established a modern, openly anti-Catholic position for Jewry, viz: “Throughout the long nineteenth century, myriad Jewish intellectuals, politicians, and activists employed anti-Catholic tropes wherever questions of political and national belonging were at stake: in theoretical treatises, parliamentary speeches, newspaper debates, the founding moments of the Reform movement, and campaigns against antisemitism.” sup.org/books/title/?id=23227 ; and finally, because
• The ‘immense’ and ‘outsized’ Jewish role in the US mass media and cultural life which has been the single most important factor in shaping American attitudes over the past century, and in driving major cultural- political changes. ihr.org/other/biden_jewish_role

Obviously, whether the last point above is considered very progressive and thereby good, or a disastrous and outrageous in-your-face degradation of traditional American culture, depends on one’s politics and religion. Personally, every time I hear our Lord’s name taken in vain, seemingly in ever other sentence of our filth-filled, PG-rated “entertainment”, and when I see on live TV the booing of the inclusion of the word “God” in the platform of a major political Party, the answer to that is clear–it’s been a disaster; an offense to God.

For those who may be offended by my Catholic outlook on life, remember that this is an orthodox (thank God) Catholic Forum. And taking a page out of Don Ruggero’s book, I “have glossed over much and even too much…and been far too charitable; justice has its own demands.”

It would be very easy to craft another post such as this; a post regarding why Pope Francis would not deem it inappropriate for homosexuals to apologize to the Church. To give a proper understanding and summation of the Holy Father’s words, suffice it to say that everyone has good reason to apologize to everyone else.

History is complex, isn’t it? I would like to read the book you alluded to on the nineteenth-century history of Jewish anti-Catholicism in France and Germany: “The Modernity of Others” by Ari Joskowicz.

 

[KSU]

History is complex, isn’t it? I would like to read the book you alluded to on the nineteenth-century history of Jewish anti-Catholicism in France and Germany: “The Modernity of Others” by Ari Joskowicz.

Be careful on that one.Two people have just advised me that I linked to a Holocaust denier site. I don’t know which link they mean, but am investigating the matter and will get back to you.

 

[KSU]

Quoting Holocaust deniers is not the most credible way to make a point. I think you should reconsider your sources on Jewish issues.

Which link, please?

 

[TMC]

Which link, please?

The “Institute for Historical Review” is a holocaust denying group that puts out pseudo-historical clap trap to try to diminish or deny the Holocaust.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Good Pope Francis (and I mean that literally) would agree that apologies all around would be appropriate, including from Jews, because:

*Their ancestors practiced direct (e.g., Saul) and indirect (e.g., support of the Romans’) genocide against Christians;

• Their ancestors sided with the Muslim barbarians who slaughtered Christian men, women and children; stole the Holy Land from them, and then murdered Christian pilgrims to that blood-soaked land;
• Their ancestors established a fifth column against Catholic Spain in its war with the invading Muslims;
• Their ancestors established a modern, openly anti-Catholic position for Jewry, viz: “Throughout the long nineteenth century, myriad Jewish intellectuals, politicians, and activists employed anti-Catholic tropes wherever questions of political and national belonging were at stake: in theoretical treatises, parliamentary speeches, newspaper debates, the founding moments of the Reform movement, and campaigns against antisemitism.” sup.org/books/title/?id=23227 ; and finally, because
• The ‘immense’ and ‘outsized’ Jewish role in the US mass media and cultural life which has been the single most important factor in shaping American attitudes over the past century, and in driving major cultural- political changes. ihr.org/other/biden_jewish_role

Obviously, whether the last point above is considered very progressive and thereby good, or a disastrous and outrageous in-your-face degradation of traditional American culture, depends on one’s politics and religion. Personally, every time I hear our Lord’s name taken in vain, seemingly in ever other sentence of our filth-filled, PG-rated “entertainment”, and when I see on live TV the booing of the inclusion of the word “God” in the platform of a major political Party, the answer to that is clear–it’s been a disaster; an offense to God.

For those who may be offended by my Catholic outlook on life, remember that this is an orthodox (thank God) Catholic Forum. And taking a page out of Don Ruggero’s book, I “have glossed over much and even too much…and been far too charitable; justice has its own demands.”

It would be very easy to craft another post such as this; a post regarding why Pope Francis would not deem it inappropriate for homosexuals to apologize to the Church. To give a proper understanding and summation of the Holy Father’s words, suffice it to say that everyone has good reason to apologize to everyone else.

This post is profoundly offensive in both content and tone. I leave further judgment to the moderators of the Forum.

 

[KSU]

TMC and meltzerboy. It appears that the Holocaust denier link is the one quoting Joe Biden, but that the Biden quote is actually what he said theamericanconservative.com/dreher/with-friends-like-joe-biden/

So, I will try to delete the link* to the denier site, but not Uncle Joe’s speech pandering to American Jews. See Jon Chait’s remarks in the link above.

Yes, meltzerboy, it’s true that history is complex. And it’s complex because it reflects concupiscence:
Insubordination of man’s desires to the dictates of reason, and the propensity of human nature to sin as a result of original sin. More commonly, it refers to the spontaneous movement of the sensitive appetites toward whatever the imagination portrays as pleasant and away from whatever it portrays as painful. However, concupiscence also includes the unruly desires of the will, such as pride, ambition, and envy. (Etym. Latin con-, thoroughly + cupere, to desire: concupiscentia, desire, greed, cupidity.) Catholic Dictionary​

*Too late, Robert Bay beat me to it.

 

[KSU]

This post is profoundly offensive in both content and tone. I leave further judgment to the moderators of the Forum.

It’s easy to make that general complaint without being specific. What in my post was inaccurate?

 

[Catholic_farmer]

I hear what you are saying. I was beaten up by my own mother when I came out, so I am not unaware of the difficulties. I don’t know what to say about those threads, I mostly ignore them, this is really the first ‘gay thread’ I have looked at in a while. I tend to see people wrestling with how to reconcile the differences between church teaching and the culture we live in. They don’t always do well, but most are trying to be faithful and kind.

By your own mother? That’s horrible! I cannot imagine how that must have felt.

There are many issues that boil down to ‘matters of the heart’. These are the hardest for people, whether they are divorced and remarried or other relationships that go against God’s law. Like the father trying to prevent his 17 year old daughter from being with the 18 year old boyfriend, none of this is easy. Self-denial is not something our culture teaches, and yet, whether it’s avoiding pre-marital sex, remarriage after divorce, inappropriate relationships, or same sex attraction, that’s what God asks us to do. I don’t envy anyone trying to follow God with these crosses to bear. All I can offer are my prayers. Also, a welcome with open arms, should you stop in our local parish.