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graciew
Guest
Oh…kind of playing the whole match kicking the ball out the field …cool. Interesting,Paganus.
Way to find peace!!
Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says
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Way to find peace!!
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
If you think that it is only in Argentina that priests understand the plight of exploited women and that the Church needs to apologise for not doing more on behalf of women’s issues, you are very mistaken.
If you think that it is only in Argentina that priests understand how we have failed, as Church, to live the preferential option for the poor that the Magisterium has articulated you are also very much mistaken. We are to be poor with the poor. We are called to the margin and the periphery before every other place…to the disempowered and the disenfranchised. That is what Pope Francis is saying in these categories.
We are called to apologise, personally, as the voice of the Church, for those whom the Church (that is in its members, as the Pope said) has failed to adequately serve…the Christ who is within these people but who has not been recognised for His presence and is even now waiting to be acknowledged and served.
I rejoice that the pope is de-emphasising the Church in the developed world and focusing on the Church in the third world…where the focus properly needs to be. There has been no United States cardinal named by Pope Francis…but the Church in Tonga now has a Cardinal…as does the Church in Haiti, the Church in Myanmar, and the Church in St. Lucia. While the Archbishops of Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Chicago have not received a red hat…but the Archbishop of Ouagadougou has. That alone is a very important statement.
The spotlight needs to be far less on the West and far more in places like Ouagadougou – and Pope Francis is well communicated that.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Ok. Have you read about his battles in Argentina with homosexual marriage and adoption? You should.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
I am glad to hear you say that. Personally, I have been up against the wall with a rich man’s version of Christianity, not only Catholicism where I went to a socially upscale private girls’ school that was too busy catering to the establishment to bother about the relatively small problems of abused children. We didn’t have a voice because of the “mommy taboo”. One of the nuns came out and said “no one can love you as much as your mother”. That is only one example out of many. I did leave the Catholic Church as an adolescent because I was fed up with that kind of stonewalling and intentional neglect. They raised plenty of funds for their church and school buildings, very astute business people but uncertain about their holiness.
I found that a fixation on money is in inverse proportion to how much actual charity they exhibit. Later on I drifted to Protestant churches, the last one where I spent 22 years. Something funny was going on. The pastor and some other people were racking up funds, I wouldn’t say illegally because they were in the main donations, but the way they were used was despicable. They allegedly didn’t have money to pay the Moslem gardener a proper wage, for instance. They simply could not believe that a decent Moslem could be as good or even better then they are for simply being Christian.
This attitude, I’m afraid is rife in the Middle East. Actually they would have showered him with praise and much more if he shouted “glory, halleluiah, I’m saved!” He was too honest and they did not realize you cannot proselytize without example. In other words if your actions contradict what you preach then any honest person would be turned off. There were some canny individuals however who pretended they got saved and who continued going to the mosque and fasting during Ramadan. They knew that lip service was very flattering indeed to their egos and so would believe any trumped up story. When I exposed one of the scams, I realized I was on my way out of there as well.
Pride and greed are a loathsome and destructive combination for the spiritual life. Some try to have if both ways but it doesn’t really work.
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pnewton
Guest
Perhaps the Pope is unaware of this anecdote.
We are hearing just one person give one side of one incident. As far as anecdotal evidence, I can only go by my experience. I have never heard of a Catholic, or known one, that was ignorant as to the Church’s position of sex outside of marriage, much less homosexual sex outside of marriage.
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exnihilo
Guest
Do priests anywhere understand the plight of exploited men? I certainly never hear about it. Throughout the world we have to do the hardest most demanding physical jobs. We are conscripted and forced to go to war and many of us are killed or maimed. The statistics don’t lie. As a result of our exploitation we men in the US live considerably shorter lives.
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pnewton
Guest
Perhaps you mean males, not men. A man does not feel exploited for working harder for his family, or regret that he gives more of his blood and sweat for his wife and children.
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sallybutler
Guest
I just think of Jesus talking about how we are to treat others as if they were Jesus Himself. We are to feed them, clothe them, give them water, treat their illnesses and injuries, physical and mental, visit them in prison, etc.
This is the hardest part of following Jesus, being willing to die for everyone/anyone in a state of sin. Also to accept the fact that none of us deserve what He did for us and that we are no better than anyone else.
We should apologize to any that we think are less. For that if nothing else.
This is the hardest part of following Jesus, being willing to die for everyone/anyone in a state of sin. Also to accept the fact that none of us deserve what He did for us and that we are no better than anyone else.
We should apologize to any that we think are less. For that if nothing else.
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exnihilo
Guest
I don’t think that is a real distinction. Male is a sex. Man is the male sex of humanity.
Certainly it is a Christian principle that we all sacrifice of ourselves. But my point was I never hear any talk of men being exploited. It would seem then that either folks think that is impossible or that it is not important. So which is it?
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pnewton
Guest
I will say that men are not exploited for being men. Anyone can be a victim of crime, but I do not consider this exploitation.
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exnihilo
Guest
Interesting. So do you consider this a logical impossibility? What explains your belief that men can not be exploited? Is man alone in being unexploitable or are other divisions of humanity free from this also?
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KSU
Guest
p, I understand your point. What is important, however, is not the number of Catholics who are ignorant about what the Church teaches, it’s the number who dissent from the teaching. That many Catholics don’t agree with the Church and aren’t afraid to say so is well known. The fact that priests and Religious are included in that group also is well known.
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pnewton
Guest
No, it is not logically impossible. I simply cannot recall any specific time in recent history where this has happened.
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exnihilo
Guest
So it is a practical impossibility? Why is it practically impossible to exploit men but possible to exploit women? What do you consider exploitation? Going by the dictionary definition of exploitation, ‘to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account’ or ‘to use selfishly for one’s own ends’, I don’t see how it is men can’t be exploited but women can be.
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pnewton
Guest
I am trying to stick to the topic. “Exploitation” in this context, that of an apology for wrong done to people as a group for who they are as a group, is not something I see happening today to men. So why the dictionary definition allows for a man to be exploited, either by an individual or a group, I do not see where the Church would be treating men as being exploited and in a need of a specialized apology.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Yes, actually. There are priests who not only understand the topic of exploitation of men as well as women and children…their life’s work involves combating it.
I think the awareness of the issue of exploited persons (men as well as women and children) is ever growing.
The problem of the trafficking in persons – whether for sexual exploitation or labour exploitation – is a problem both the Church and the secular society are growing ever more aware of.
The Holy See has published on its website an excellent statement on the matter that was authored by the Americans. You will find various other resources on this topic which have emerged from the Holy See as well as communities of men and women Religious and other associations collaborating with the Holy See. The Holy See is working in the family of nations – and has been for years, thanks to the vision and the initiative of Pope Saint John Paul II – to combat this tragic phenomenon.
The plight of men who have been exploited as victims of human trafficking and held in bondage is no less deserving of a spotlight of attention. No one – male or female, adult or minor – should be victimised in this 21st century manifestation of slavery.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/migrants/pom2007-105/rc_pc_migrants_pom105_statement-human-barnes.html
Moreover, Pope Francis just spoke on this matter last month to a gathering of judges.
I share with you the following extracts of his address:
*In the course of these recent years there have been many important activities at the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences under the vigorous drive of its President, Chancellor and some external collaborators of prestigious reputation, whom I thank from the heart. Activities in defence of the dignity and freedom of men and women today and, in particular, to eradicate human trafficking and smuggling and the new forms of slavery such as forced labour, prostitution, organ trafficking, the drug trade and organised crime. As my predecessor Benedict XVI said, and I’ve affirmed it myself on several occasions, these are real crimes against humanity that should be recognised as such by all religious, political and social leaders — and reflected in national and international laws.
/…/
The meeting on 2 December 2014 with the leaders of today’s most influential religions in this globalised world, and the summit on 21 July 2015 with the mayors of the major cities of the world, have shown the willingness of this Academy to pursue the eradication of new forms of slavery. I hold a special memory of these two meetings, as well as the noteworthy youth symposiums, all due to the initiative of the Academy.
Now, inspired by the same motivation, the Academy has brought you together, judges and prosecutors from around the world, with practical experience and wisdom in eradicating human trafficking, smuggling and organised crime. You have come here representing your colleagues with the praiseworthy aim of making progress in spreading awareness of these scourges and consequently manifesting your irreplaceable mission to face the new challenges posed by the globalisation of indifference, responding to society’s growing concern and respecting national and international laws. Taking charge of one’s own vocation also means feeling, and proclaiming oneself, free from the pressures of governments, private institutions and, of course, the “structures of sin” of which my predecessor John Paul II spoke, particularly in regard to organised crime. Without this freedom, a nation’s judiciary is corrupted and corrupting.
Fortunately, for the realisation of this complex and delicate human and Christian project of freeing humanity from the new slaveries and organised crime, which the Academy has undertaken following my request, we can also count on the important and decisive synergy with the United Nations. I am thankful that the representatives of the 193 UN member states unanimously approved the new Sustainable Development Goals, and in particular Goal 8.7. This reads: “Take immediate and effective measures to eradicate forced labour, end modern slavery and human trafficking and secure the prohibition and elimination of the worst forms of child labour, including recruitment and use of child soldiers, and by 2025 end child labour in all its forms”. We can very well say that such goals and targets are now a moral imperative for all member states of the UN.
/…/
I ask the judges to fulfil their vocation and their crucial mission — to establish justice — without which there is neither order nor sustainable and integral development, nor social peace. Undoubtedly, one of the greatest social ills of the world today is corruption at all levels, which weakens any government, participatory democracy and the activity of justice. Judges, you are responsible for executing justice, and I you to pay special attention to justice in the field of human trafficking and smuggling and, against this and organised crime, I ask you to take care not to fall into a web of corruption.*
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/06/03/pope_francis_addresses_judges_summit/1234691
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BabyBoomer
Guest
Another papal scandal in my opinion (they seem to come every few weeks now). He again chooses not to talk about the sin of sodomy or even to warn of the dangers to children from male homosexuals. Instead he accepts the liberal narrative of harmless gays being oppressed by Christians. Absolutely appalling!
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Sarcelle
Guest
Yes there are.
I have heard many priests who lecture of the dignity of the laborer and companies should pay them a fair wage. They lecture on the dignity of the poor and the exploited. They count men among those who are exploited.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
The Holy See, the United Nations, and the United States Government (since I am assuming most of the people commenting on this thread are from that country) in fact do recognise that men can be and are victims of exploitation.
Indeed, the United States Government has just issued its annual report on the global exploitation of men, women and children and I am actually waiting presently to be able to read this report, as I do each year.
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sallybutler
Guest
Why is it appalling to say we should not assume that everyone with homosexual tendencies must be a child molester? I suspect most child molesters are heterosexual and more female children are molested than male children are.
My brother was a homosexual and he had absolutely no interest in little boys. From what I’ve read, most pedophiles are heterosexuals.
Perhaps this is one of the things we should apologize for, assuming all homosexuals are pedophiles.
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