Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says

[Brendan]

Why is it appalling to say we should not assume that everyone with homosexual tendencies must be a child molester? .

I missed the part where BB made any claim that everyone with homosexual tendencies must be a child molester. It was not in the part that you quoted, was it somewhere else in the thread?

If it was not claimed, why mention it as a being appalling?

 

[at9009]

I missed the part where BB made any claim that everyone with homosexual tendencies must be a child molester. It was not in the part that you quoted, was it somewhere else in the thread?

If it was not claimed, why mention it as a being appalling?

From post 266

even to warn of the dangers to children from male homosexuals

It at least give of the impression that they view that people with homosexual tendencies are a danger to children simply for having these attractions (as if being attracted to other guys means children are in danger?). Don’t know how one interprets that any differently. Especially when there is a narrative from some vocal people that do equate gay men to pedophiles out there.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Why is it appalling to say we should not assume that everyone with homosexual tendencies must be a child molester? I suspect most child molesters are heterosexual and more female children are molested than male children are.
My brother was a homosexual and he had absolutely no interest in little boys. From what I’ve read, most pedophiles are heterosexuals.
Perhaps this is one of the things we should apologize for, assuming all homosexuals are pedophiles.

Sorry, but the facts do not corroborate the above:

catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/myth-buster

“The National Review Board, recruiting a research team from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, released its initial report in 2004. The results were conclusive: This was not a “pedophile” scandal, but a homosexual scandal. Eighty percent of the alleged victims were male, and nearly 90 percent were post-pubescent, with “only a small percentage of priests receiving allegations of abusing young children.” An updated report, issued in 2011, revealed similar numbers: 81 percent of sex abuse victims were boys, and 78 percent were post-pubescent.”
taken from: churchmilitant.com/news/a…ut-homosexuals

This makes a lot of sense considering the disproportionate percentage of molestation in the general population coming from pederasty. If the population of homosexuals is 2%, then the rate of abuse should be as in the rest of society, but it far higher.

There is a reason why pedophilia is higher among homosexuals. If their induction to that lifestyle was molestation (freely admitted by them), then it makes sense that the victims would repeat the trauma, yet another reason not to whitewash the danger it means for society as a whole.

 

[pnewton]

The Holy See, the United Nations, and the United States Government (since I am assuming most of the people commenting on this thread are from that country) in fact do recognise that men can be and are victims of exploitation.

Indeed, the United States Government has just issued its annual report on the global exploitation of men, women and children and I am actually waiting presently to be able to read this report, as I do each year.

I will try and find it. Do you know of anything the Church has done that might have contributed to men in particular being exploited? I know during the slave trade, there might be some argument made for not opposing slavery sooner, or more vigorously. I am thinking of something more recent, if anything pops in your head.

 

[Brendan]

Sorry, but the facts do not corroborate the above:
.

No Sally is correct in that not all homosexuals are sexual abusers.

And also correct that they do not even for up the majority of sexual abusers.

But you are correct is that sexual abuse of a homosexual nature accounts for a statistically higher rate of abuse

 

[zamyrabyrd]

No Sally is correct in that not all homosexuals are sexual abusers.

No one said that.

And also correct that they do not even for up the majority of sexual abusers.

If they are only less than 2% of the population, how could they be a majority?

But you are correct is that sexual abuse of a homosexual nature accounts for a statistically higher rate of abuse

It is definitely a youth culture.

lifeissues.net/writers/reis/reis_06homosexualyouth2.html

"Psychologist Eugene Abel reported homosexuals "sexually molest young boys with an incidence that is occurring from five times greater than the molestation of girls. . . .
(Actually, the facts below show a greater incidence.)

[N]onincarcerated child molesters admitted from 23.4 to 281.7 acts per offender . . . whose targets were males."98
The rate of homosexual versus heterosexual child sexual abuse is staggering. Abel’s data of 150.2 boys abused per male homosexual offender finds no equal (yet) in heterosexual violations of 19.8 girls.99
These data are fully supported by the pre-Kirk and Madsen homosexual political writings, especially blatant in Karla Jay and Allen Young’s two pro-gay books, Out of the Closets100 and The Gay Report.101 The former reprints “Gay Manifestos” which boldly proclaim “kids can take care of themselves, and are sexual beings way earlier than we’d like to admit . . . nice bodies and young bodies are attributes, they’re groovy,” calling for elimination of the age of consent.102

Jay and Young’s finding of fifty to seventy-three percent of homosexual males self-reporting sex with boys103 (even Advocate readers admitted to a twenty-one percent molestation rate by age fifteen),104 is of a “fit” with the one in six or seven boys child-protection data estimates as boy abuse by bi/homosexual males.105

Reisman and Johnson purged female ISO’s from The Washingtonian database. The remaining “bachelors” (heterosexual Washingtonians versus homosexual Advocates), were character analyzed by categorizing and tabulating the advertisers’ partner solicitations. These primary findings were supported by several cross-validation analyses of biographies, travel, self-reports as well as other scholarly studies as cited below.86
0.45% Washingtonian heterosexual bachelors (n=2885) were “in search of/offer” man-girl sex.87
15% Advocate homosexual bachelors (n=7407) were “in search of/offer” man-boy sex.88
Additional Corroborative Studies:
49% of “gay” male biographies (n=166) report sex with boys.89
41% of “gay” travel in foreign countries (n=139) report laws on adult sex with boys.90
21% of Advocate readers (n=2500) report adult molestation before age 15.91
73% of “gay” men report sex with boys 16-19 or younger.92
100 boys a year, plus, report molestation by a Boy Scout Leader.93
150 boy homosexual victims versus 20 girl heterosexual victims per molester.94
153 homosexual offenders assaulted 22,981 boys.95
224 heterosexual offenders assaulted 4435 girls.96"

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I will try and find it. Do you know of anything the Church has done that might have contributed to men in particular being exploited? I know during the slave trade, there might be some argument made for not opposing slavery sooner, or more vigorously. I am thinking of something more recent, if anything pops in your head.

The document of which I spoke is issued by the United States State Department. It was just presented in print form in Washington DC in the past days and will hopefully be published electronically soon.

As for the Holy See and the initiatives with the UN, you may begin here:

holyseemission.org/contents//events/5715326c1968a6.32565041.php

This is a small except for an event at the UN by the Nuncio in April.

*Permanent Observer of the Holy See to the UN Archbishop Bernardito Auza moderated the Conference and read a special letter Pope Francis wrote for the event, in which he urged speakers and attendees to focus on the most vulnerable victims of the scourge of modern slavery and human trafficking.

“As you reflect on the multifaceted issues which contribute to modern slavery and human trafficking, I encourage you to strengthen the bonds of cooperation and communication which are essential to ending the suffering of the many men, women and children who today are enslaved and sold as if they were a mere commodity,” he wrote. “In your discussions, I hope also that you will keep before you the dignity of every person, and recognize in all your endeavors a true service to the poorest and most marginalized of society, who too often are forgotten and have no voice.”

The event was co-sponsored by the Santa Marta Group, a collaboration of senior law enforcement chiefs from over 30 countries with senior representative of the Roman Catholic Church and civil society organizations, founded in 2014 by Pope Francis in order to strengthen and coordinate the global response to human trafficking and all forms of modern slavery. The Group is named after the residence in the Vatican where Pope Francis resides.*

So in answer to your question relative to the Holy Father’s statement in his meeting with the press on the flight back from Armenia, he was speaking of the need to apologise and seek forgiveness of the Lord, in addition to those who are gay and lesbian per the speech of Cardinal Marx in Ireland, for our failures within the Church that have harmed:

• the poor
• women exploited
• children exploited
• proliferation of arms
• not accompanying families

The Holy Father’s statement of the need to apologise and seek forgiveness relate more to faults of omission than commission. It is less that we have done things to exploit than that we have not done enough to combat exploitation and a culture that is exploitative since the Gospel imperative is to even sacrifice ourselves for the other.

Someone on the thread asked if priests anywhere were concerned about men who are exploited – and the answer is yes, which is why I responded as I did.

In fact, the men, who are exploited in trafficking, are primarily in situations of forced manual labour…women are also exploited for labour but also in other ways. Child victims…the exploitation takes a variety of forms as well.

While the Holy Father in the press conference did not specifically address the exploitation of men, he does so very frequently. It is an issue very important to him.

There is another side to this however. The word “exploitation” should not be employed lightly or in a casual manner. To do so would be disrespectful to the men (and women and children) who truly are victims of exploitation: A man who was held in bondage as a labour slave…whether in a factory or in an agriculture field or in construction. A teenage male on the cusp of manhood who was compelled to be a child soldier. These are men who are truly victims of exploitation and their plight needs to be acknowledged and redressed by the human family.

 

[pnewton]

A teenage male on the cusp of manhood who was compelled to be a child soldier. These are men who are truly victims of exploitation and their plight needs to be acknowledged and redressed by the human family.

Thank you especially for reminding me of this one. Yes, it is a good example that I can use to understand what is meant, at least by the Holy See, as exploitation applied to males.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

ABOARD THE PAPAL FLIGHT FROM ARMENIA (CNS) — Catholics and other Christians not only must apologize to the gay community, they must ask forgiveness of God for ways they have discriminated against homosexual persons or fostered hostility toward them, Pope Francis said.

“I think the church not only must say it is sorry to the gay person it has offended, but also to the poor, to exploited women” and anyone whom the church did not defend when it could, he told reporters June 26.

Spending close to an hour answering questions from reporters traveling with him, Pope Francis was asked to comment on remarks reportedly made a few days previously by Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the German bishops’ conference, that the Catholic Church must apologize to gay people for contributing to their marginalization.

At the mention of the massacre in early June at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, Pope Francis closed his eyes as if in pain and shook his head in dismay.

“The church must say it is sorry for not having behaved as it should many times, many times — when I say the ‘church,’ I mean we Christians because the church is holy; we are the sinners,” the pope said. “We Christians must say we are sorry.”

cnstopstories.com/2016/06/26/christians-should-apologize-for-helping-to-marginalize-gays-pope-says/

Marginalized who???

 

[Seamus_L]

It’s common now to hear people say things like “Why not have people from the LGBT community, tell us specifically how they’ve been marginalized, rather than trying to decide for ourselves”. In this instance it might be a good thing, because we could then check there claims and see how they conform to historic Catholic teaching.

 

[djames99]

I thought that the Church was already addressing the statement "We Christians must say we are sorry.”, as a recommendation for the first step on their path to change. One must admit their is an illness before seeking a remedy. One caught in the vice of HS capital sin is indeed to come to repentance if he is to be saved. 1 Cor 5:11 states clearly how the community is to respond to obstinate sin of the baptized community.

This public snuggling and familiarity is a much more dangerous problem, and the pontiff and community should distance himself from it as scripture recommends, and remain on traditional paths. Those baptized and who insist in pride parades, the media, and promoting this life style, qualify for a charge of freely willed heresy, as in this manner they knowingly consummate their acts and attempt to influence those tempted to experiment into accepting self willed expressed deviation of doctrine as normal. They send the message that there is diversity in all things, God’s laws included.

From NewAdvent : newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

" St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”. "The right Christian faith consists in giving one’s voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other** by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.** The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church;** the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval.** The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonorable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of “freely willed”.

The Pope is once again cowtoing to the greater “Doctrine of Consensus”. One day we will discover that those who needed the Church’s agreement, really wanted the Church to stand firm. This Mater cannot ever be a “friend” has the family leader. She needs to be a Mother in Authority and state clearly what is intrinsically wrong. She will scold when called for, and direct her community siblings to shun these in hopes they will return.

 

[_Abyssinia]

How to understand Pope Francis’ ‘apology’ to the gay community

catholicnewsagency.com/news/how-to-understand-pope-francis-apology-to-the-gay-community-56370/

 

[Paganus]

If you think that it is only in Argentina that priests understand the plight of exploited women and that the Church needs to apologise for not doing more on behalf of women’s issues, you are very mistaken.

If you think that it is only in Argentina that priests understand how we have failed, as Church, to live the preferential option for the poor that the Magisterium has articulated you are also very much mistaken. We are to be poor with the poor. We are called to the margin and the periphery before every other place…to the disempowered and the disenfranchised. That is what Pope Francis is saying in these categories.

We are called to apologise, personally, as the voice of the Church, for those whom the Church (that is in its members, as the Pope said) has failed to adequately serve…the Christ who is within these people but who has not been recognised for His presence and is even now waiting to be acknowledged and served.

I rejoice that the pope is de-emphasising the Church in the developed world and focusing on the Church in the third world…where the focus properly needs to be. There has been no United States cardinal named by Pope Francis…but the Church in Tonga now has a Cardinal…as does the Church in Haiti, the Church in Myanmar, and the Church in St. Lucia. While the Archbishops of Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Chicago have not received a red hat…but the Archbishop of Ouagadougou has. That alone is a very important statement.

The spotlight needs to be far less on the West and far more in places like Ouagadougou – and Pope Francis is well communicated that.

Okay, so you agree with my intended meaning and expanded upon it. People in the West are being shocked by the Pope’s informal remarks and this is because the Pope is not thinking of the West with these remarks, but of Argentina and maybe even of other places that Westerners know even less well than Argentina. I have no knowledge of a place called Ouagadougou, but I am happy if the Pope is keeping its happy people in his prayers.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Okay, so you agree with my intended meaning and expanded upon it. People in the West are being shocked by the Pope’s informal remarks and this is because the Pope is not thinking of the West with these remarks, but of Argentina and maybe even of other places that Westerners know even less well than Argentina. I have no knowledge of a place called Ouagadougou, but I am happy if the Pope is keeping its happy people in his prayers.

Ouagadougou is the capitol of Burkina Faso.

The Archbishop of Ouagadougou is only the second prelate of Burkina Faso to be elevated to the College of Cardinals.

 

[estesbob]

Ouagadougou is the capitol of Burkina Faso.

The Archbishop of Ouagadougou is only the second prelate of Burkina Faso to be elevated to the College of Cardinals.

That’s nice but it does very little and help me to understand who I’m supposed to apologize to and what I supposed to apologize for

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Sorry, but the facts do not corroborate the above:

catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/myth-buster

“The National Review Board, recruiting a research team from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, released its initial report in 2004. The results were conclusive: This was not a “pedophile” scandal, but a homosexual scandal. Eighty percent of the alleged victims were male, and nearly 90 percent were post-pubescent, with “only a small percentage of priests receiving allegations of abusing young children.” An updated report, issued in 2011, revealed similar numbers: 81 percent of sex abuse victims were boys, and 78 percent were post-pubescent.”
taken from: churchmilitant.com/news/a…ut-homosexuals

This makes a lot of sense considering the disproportionate percentage of molestation in the general population coming from pederasty. If the population of homosexuals is 2%, then the rate of abuse should be as in the rest of society, but it far higher.

There is a reason why pedophilia is higher among homosexuals. If their induction to that lifestyle was molestation (freely admitted by them), then it makes sense that the victims would repeat the trauma, yet another reason not to whitewash the danger it means for society as a whole.

Lets look at the data, shall we?
usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

page 76 of the document

8 and under: 10.1%
10 and under: 22.6%
12 and under: 47.3%
14 and under: 73.3%
16 and under: 93.4%
give that 16-17 is the normal age for boys to complete puberty

To claim that “nearly 90 percent were post-pubescent” is categorically false

Ouagadougou is the capitol of Burkina Faso.

The Archbishop of Ouagadougou is only the second prelate of Burkina Faso to be elevated to the College of Cardinals.

To some people making distinctions between Argentina and Africa is distinctions without differences.

 

[Brendan]

give that 16-17 is the normal age for boys to complete puberty

To claim that “nearly 90 percent were post-pubescent” is categorically false

To some people making distinctions between Argentina and Africa is distinctions without differences.

Medically speaking, ‘pubescent’ is a specific time, it marks the time when a person REACHES the age of puberty, that is, becomes capable of reproduction.

In males, that is commonly 11-12 years of age.

‘Post-pubescent’ would be any time after that age.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

Lets look at the data, shall we?
usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Nature-and-Scope-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-and-Deacons-in-the-United-States-1950-2002.pdf

page 76 of the document

8 and under: 10.1%
10 and under: 22.6%
12 and under: 47.3%
14 and under: 73.3%
16 and under: 93.4%
give that 16-17 is the normal age for boys to complete puberty

To claim that “nearly 90 percent were post-pubescent” is categorically false

To some people making distinctions between Argentina and Africa is distinctions without differences.

I cited the source from this blog. Anyway, the fact is that pederasty is much higher percentage wise from a population of 2% or less.

I applaud Africa as a whole for resisting “help” with a price tag, coming mainly from the US State Department, to accept values that go against their traditional ways of life. As a continent, they may just surpass their former so-called enlightened colonizers.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Medically speaking, ‘pubescent’ is a specific time, it marks the time when a person REACHES the age of puberty, that is, becomes capable of reproduction.

In males, that is commonly 11-12 years of age.

‘Post-pubescent’ would be any time after that age.

11-14 is generally considered pubescent in males

I cited the source from this blog. Anyway, the fact is that pederasty is much higher percentage wise from a population of 2% or less.

I applaud Africa as a whole for resisting “help” with a price tag, coming mainly from the US State Department, to accept values that go against their traditional ways of life. As a continent, they may just surpass their former so-called enlightened colonizers.

Do you also support them publishing the names and addresses of suspected gay people in the paper so people know who to attack? How about the beating of women or spousal rape which is common in the developing world.

 

[JosieN]

I thought that the Church was already addressing the statement "We Christians must say we are sorry.”, as a recommendation for the first step on their path to change. One must admit their is an illness before seeking a remedy. One caught in the vice of HS capital sin is indeed to come to repentance if he is to be saved. 1 Cor 5:11 states clearly how the community is to respond to obstinate sin of the baptized community.

This public snuggling and familiarity is a much more dangerous problem, and the pontiff and community should distance himself from it as scripture recommends, and remain on traditional paths. Those baptized and who insist in pride parades, the media, and promoting this life style, qualify for a charge of freely willed heresy, as in this manner they knowingly consummate their acts and attempt to influence those tempted to experiment into accepting self willed expressed deviation of doctrine as normal. They send the message that there is diversity in all things, God’s laws included.

From NewAdvent : newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

" St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”. "The right Christian faith consists in giving one’s voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other** by restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics.** The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church;** the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval.** The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one’s own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonorable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of “freely willed”.

The Pope is once again cowtoing to the greater “Doctrine of Consensus”. One day we will discover that those who needed the Church’s agreement, really wanted the Church to stand firm. This Mater cannot ever be a “friend” has the family leader. She needs to be a Mother in Authority and state clearly what is intrinsically wrong. She will scold when called for, and direct her community siblings to shun these in hopes they will return.

Sin is an illness of the soul and it causes hardships to the sinner. It leads them to an unhappy life even if they do not realize it. If we say we are sorry for their pain but do nothing to try to cure it, how is that helpful?