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Brendan
Guest
That is correct, but, as I stated, it commonly happens between 11-12 years of age. There are a few who encounter pubescent during ages 13-14, but that is uncommonly late.
Christians should apologize for helping to marginalize gays, pope says
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Lion_IRC
Guest
I’m still trying to learn more about charity towards others but don’t think we should be asking our fellow (Catholic) forum members if they “support” the beating of women or gay people.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Puberty isn’t an instantaneous thing, it is a process, it normally starts 11-12 and ends 16-17 so generally a 14 year old is oubescent, not post-pubescent and besides that 22.6% were 10 and under which definitely isn’t a case of nearly 90% being post pubescent.
It was a rhetorical question, obviously she doesn’t support that. Catholics seem to love how Africa is fighting the gay agenda, but do they love how it is common in sub-Saharan African countries, especially those “fighting the gay agenda” for there to be extreme brutality towards LGBT peopleI’m still trying to learn more about charity towards others but don’t think we should be asking our fellow (Catholic) forum members if they “support” the beating of women or gay people.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
I’m sure the courageous African Bishops and clergy, plus the African faithful do not support publishing the names of people to attack. However, in the West we have just the opposite, Christian businesses and even individuals who are on social blacklists who support traditional morality and live by it.
If you want to talk violence, there is plenty in the LGBT community, an admitted problem by them.
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Brendan
Guest
Medically speaking, it is when the person becomes capable of sexual reproduction.
For males, that is most commonly between 11-12.
There are additional physical changes that complete by the time a male is 17, but that is not when then become physically capable of fathering a child, which is how medical science defines the moment of puberty.
In a female, that moment is the time of first ovulation, marked approx. two weeks later by her first period.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
I’m searching lots of medical definitions and while I see many mentioning that it is the period when they become capable of sexual reproduction the vast majority seem to also mention other developmental change and some also mention 16-17. In none of them am I finding that as soon as the person becomes capable of sexual reproduction they are post pubescent.
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KSU
Guest
Pope Francis said he thinks that ** sinners** should say they are sorry for not having behaved as they should toward homosexuals, the poor, exploited women and anyone else whom they did not defend when they could.
So what? Who wouldn’t admit that is Church teaching 101?
The Holy Father simply avoided the media’s hoped-for gaff, and disarmed the time bomb presented to him by the unfortunate Cardinal Reinhard Marx: the absurd proposition that the Catholic Church must apologize to homosexuals for contributing to their marginalization; i.e., that the Church Herself shares the blame for Orlando.
The truth is that the slaughter in Orlando is simply the carrying out of Islamist barbarian dogma that homosexuals must be killed, and has nothing to do with Catholicism. But thanks to the media’s headlines, here we are, 294 posts later, avoiding the issue of Cardinal Marx’s often stated beliefs regarding homosexuality and the Church.
The true number of homosexual abuse cases–as if anyone really knows the extent of that ugly reality–is irrelevant to the issue in this thread.
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Lion_IRC
Guest
I struggling - really wrestling with my core beliefs - on the question of whether my (biblical) opposition to same-sex ‘marriage’ and same-sex adoption “helps to marginalize gays”.
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KSU
Guest
So is Pope Francis, which is why he did not take the journalist’s bait about Cardinal Marx saying the Church does marginalize gays and should apologize.I struggling - really wrestling with my core beliefs - on the question of whether my (biblical) opposition to same-sex ‘marriage’ and same-sex adoption “helps to marginalize gays”.
Just saw this: catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1163
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tseleehw
Guest
Yes, this is a very good commentary on this subject. While apologizing when you have offended someone is good advice from the Pope that should be heeded, it is not likely to make a large difference in reconciling with the LGBT community in the long-run. Pope Francis is trying to change the tone of the Church when it comes to these delicate subjects, which is fine, but in my opinion, it is not going to help much in the end. Most gay people and the LGBT community’s main problem isn’t with how the Church communicates its teachings on homosexuality, their problem is with the teachings themselves. It doesn’t matter how you sugarcoat it, if you don’t change it, they’re never going to be satisfied, as the article makes perfectly clear with the examples it provides from the liberal media after Pope Francis said the Church should apologize. Pope Francis or the Church faithful can apologize all they want, but in the vast majority of cases, it won’t matter to those receiving the apology, or at the very least will be accepted halfheartedly. Not that you shouldn’t apologize if you have truly offended someone, but just recognize that apologizing is probably more for our benefit than theirs.
This is not to discount the struggles of Catholics who experience same-sex attraction that try to remain faithful to Church teachings. They are doing the right thing and should be shown compassion and understanding. But trying to reconcile or make peace with the LGBT community as a whole is futile. It would be better to concentrate on helping individuals who want to remain faithful to the Church teachings than worrying appeasing the LGBT community. That would be fighting a losing battle. I don’t know if Pope Francis is actually suggesting this (I tend to think not) but that’s just my perspective on the matter.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
I just listened to in Italian the 7 minute interview on the plane from Armenia and must say the press really jumped on the words of the Holy Father and blew them completely out of proportion. It’s different also with his heightened tone of voice for the rest of the speech having to do with the general need for compassion by the Church.
youtube.com/watch?v=goYEAuPUJ00
“The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism.”
Having good will and seeking God make all the difference in the world. The press is notorious for taking words out of context. Also, in print it is not quite the same thing. Added to that, something is always lost in translation from another language.
youtube.com/watch?v=goYEAuPUJ00
“The problem is a person that has a condition, that has good will and who seeks God, who are we to judge? And we must accompany them well…this is what the catechism says, a clear catechism.”
Having good will and seeking God make all the difference in the world. The press is notorious for taking words out of context. Also, in print it is not quite the same thing. Added to that, something is always lost in translation from another language.
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BCole
Guest
I guess the Pope doesn’t believe in “shaking the dust from your sandals”.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
Why do you say that? It seemed to me the Holy Father is holding out for those “who seek God with good will”. Unfortunately, the notion of “pride” is entrenching certain people in their lifestyles. Pride is always a problem and a stumbling block to spiritual progress.
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Hatikvah
Guest
Is this a matter of faith and morals, though? When will Catholics be able to decide? For me, I do not believe that the majority of Christians have ever even “marginalized” a gay. Of course, I respect Pope Francis, but this is given the gays further reason to bully us.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
Even the Devil can quote Scripture. personally, I don’t think it will make too much difference one way or the other. This article was enlightening to me on the concept of “pride”:
mercatornet.com/articles/view/google-why-prideforeveryone-and-not-hopeforeveryone/18349
“The LGBTQ community says: we experience that we cannot change our affections, so rather than be ashamed of them, we should be proud of them. We ourselves should accept our feelings as they are, and we expect other people to accept them as they are. We also expect society to not discriminate against people who feel the way we do, so we should have equal opportunities as people who feel differently. This is their discourse, and it is understandable from their point of view.”
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J_Peterson
Guest
You just marginalized them in the same post you said that you don’t. You are setting them apart from everyone else (“the gays”, “to bully us”). We have to move past us vs. them because there is no such thing as “them”, only “us”.
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zamyrabyrd
Guest
Is it marginalization to admit categories of people like women, men, girls, boys, European, Asian, etc.? For the purpose of argument, the LGBTIQ’ers identify themselves as a viable group.
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at9009
Guest
That is kind of a misunderstanding of the issue. It wasn’t said as gay people but ‘the gays.’ "
Next statement was this “Christians have ever even “marginalized” a gay”" instead of saying Christians have ever en marginalized a gay person. This isn’t even talking about any of their argument but rather the tone. Then using “bully us” clearly sets it into an US vs THEM mentality.
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Lion_IRC
Guest
This is the basic tension which exists between #diversity and #equality.
When a certain cohort in society “self-identifies” and vocally/proudly declares their difference from those outside ‘their’ group, yet they nonetheless want equality, there is surely an undeniable paradox.
If bachelors demand the right to get married - because they want to be treated as equal - we could theoretically abolish the word bachelor or change the definition to include married people who want to live like bachelors. But then aren’t we simply abolishing/diluting diversity?
Note the tension which exists between the traditional feminist movement and the transgender activists over what it means to be a woman. If you allow people to freely self-identify as “X” what do we then do when another person claims to be the ‘real’ type “X”?
There would no doubt be the same sort of tension if any person could subjectively claim the right to call themselves a catholic.
I’m pretty sure we have not yet arrived at the stage where straight people (S) can feel included and have their own letter designation in amongst those on the LGBTQI banner.
When a certain cohort in society “self-identifies” and vocally/proudly declares their difference from those outside ‘their’ group, yet they nonetheless want equality, there is surely an undeniable paradox.
If bachelors demand the right to get married - because they want to be treated as equal - we could theoretically abolish the word bachelor or change the definition to include married people who want to live like bachelors. But then aren’t we simply abolishing/diluting diversity?
Note the tension which exists between the traditional feminist movement and the transgender activists over what it means to be a woman. If you allow people to freely self-identify as “X” what do we then do when another person claims to be the ‘real’ type “X”?
There would no doubt be the same sort of tension if any person could subjectively claim the right to call themselves a catholic.
I’m pretty sure we have not yet arrived at the stage where straight people (S) can feel included and have their own letter designation in amongst those on the LGBTQI banner.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
In a country like the UK and apparently the US, joining the Communion queue (not a work of mercy) is over-emphasised and befriending other human beings (a work of mercy) is de-emphasised while other Church activities (a work of mercy) are wound down or not advertised. This functionally and effectively or constructively, marginalises.
Not caring about Communion for oneself is thought to make one too strange a kind of Catholic.
Not caring about Communion for oneself is thought to make one too strange a kind of Catholic.
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