Christians VS Pagans

[corvidae]

One of the things I think is not everything can be proved definitively on the internet, here and now.

As an example, it has taken 22 years for me to get to where I am in my faith at the moment, I couldn’t expect the same thing to happen to you overnight.

Anyway, I want to know how you get your rituals and your observances. Who do you follow, or is it simply your own particular brand of paganism.

That is my question, you explained a little bit, but not enought for me to really get a feel for what you believe, and so it is hard for me to respond, because I don’t know what you are facing, or what you could be facing. If that makes any sense.

A lone Raven

 

[Zooey]

I do not want to keep doing this, but you seem to keep missing the point.

Hrolf is an anthropoligist, he studies cultures and religions, that is something that may come into play in a conversation such as this. In addition to this, you seem to think that his studies have no bearing, but he consistantly points out that you either conform to what we know of historical paganism, or neo-paganism, or something else entirely.

He is attempting to figure out something about your religion, not so he can convert you, but so that he can talk to you. You started a thread to start people talking, but you seem to not give them enough information to actually talk to you in any meaningful sense.

Look, he has experiance, he has education, if anyone has something intelligent to say to you on the topic, I would say it would be him. Perhaps you would get more out of his comments if you looked at it as someone interested in talking, rather than interested in persecuting you.

You do seem to believe that many people on this thread are trying to convert you or persecute you. Perhaps to confirm beliefs that you already had. I don’t know, but it seems like alot of hostility is happening.

Just a few thoughts,

A lone raven

Exactly!!
And, by the way, those are Celtic symbols you are using–not the spiral, the knotwork in your sig. line.
By the way: I do not have a degree in anthropology or anything else; I am an autodidact & of Celtic ancestry-- Irish, Welsh, & Gallic Celts in the family tree.
But-- when the wind is southerly,I know a hawk from a handsaw . And modern pagans scare me–Not that I fear what they might do to me, but that I worry over what they may be doing to themselves.

 

[LilyM]

LOL!!! I’m intellectually lazy, well i don’t need to tell the world in almost every post i make that i have a ‘degree’? I didn’t ask for links to amazon.com, i want somewhere i can read the book, online as i will not be wasting time and money getting my hands on these books, which could be completly useless to me. If you think they will give me the information you suggest, i suggest you do some leg work.

Forget it, I will not waste anymore time with you.

Medbh, there are places called libraries where you can read books and journals for free.

I’ve studied, and with money to buy nary a book, if I wanted to learn something I had to make extensive use of libraries. Oddly enough every student and scholar who wants to get anywhere in their studies does. This is why scholars have developed standardised systems of referencing, so that anyone who reads their papers can know exactly which book to ask their local librarian about

 

[Zooey]

I was at my local library today…picking up books ordered from all over the state, at no cost to me, except the (admittedly high) price of the little bit of gas it took to drive me there…
I am not attacking you! I am simply pointing out that when you truly** want** information, it can be gotten at little or no cost. You are not among enemies here; you are among folk who have seen the sad results of making up your own religion as you go along. We simply want to dialogue–and to express our concern for those like yourself, who have no idea of what you may be tampering with.

 

[LilyM]

Medbh, there are places called libraries where you can read books and journals for free.

I’ve studied, and with money to buy nary a book, if I wanted to learn something I had to make extensive use of libraries. Oddly enough every student and scholar who wants to get anywhere in their studies does. This is why scholars have developed standardised systems of referencing, so that anyone who reads their papers can know exactly which book to ask their local librarian about

Thanks Zooey …

I apologise for my insensitive-sounding comments Medbh :bowdown2:

I should be more aware that not everyone knows about or takes advantage of the wonderful services that our public libraries provide.

Don’t write brotherhrolf or Zooey off, they are very intelligent and caring people and know what they’re talking about and they didn’t pay me to say that either

 

[Hastrman]

look, I’m not even gonna bother answering to you.

you’re obviously just trolling

No, I honestly want to help you understand, since it seems you don’t. You’re flat-out wrong, first off, by thinking that culture can be divorced from religion, in terms of paganism; real religions of that kind don’t even have names, they’re so closely tied to their people. Generally they only get names to distinguish them from foreign things, as Shintou got its name (God-way) when Buddhism came via Korean missionaries.

The only tribe-transcending religions are Christianity and Buddhism and, to some extent, Islam, although that has a lot of Arab cultural baggage.

Anyway, most non-Christians (not, I should have said before, the Jews) have valued suicide as the defense of honor. Suicide can be an honorable thing, undertaken rightly; Yamanami Keisuke, a better human being than you or I, died by suicide (probably). And though Judeo-Christianity (which term I hate; the two are very different) forbids suicide, we used to be the same way. Burning at the stake was originally hated, for instance, not for the pain, but because it was undignified to have your body destroyed. Or look at the Maccabees! It’s only the “Enlightenment” that made pain/death more hateful than indignity.

ps. is “gong fu” some sort of instrument…or did you mean Kung Fu?
After that I’m not gonna take anything else you have to say seriously…

“Gong fu” is its Cantonese pronunciation, and it’s how Bruce Lee said it. I think he gets to be considered an authority, haai, gwai mui? But then, I’m acquainted with real Chinese history, and real Buddhism, not “Kung Fu: starring David Carradine”.

Technically, of course, it’s Shaolin quan, “Fist of Shaolin”, which is (well, was; now it belongs to the Communists) a Zen (=Qian) sect monastery. The monks there once killed 1400 men in a single battle.

I know you’ve been told Zen is peaceful, but it really isn’t; that’s why it became so popular with the Samurai. One of the founders of the sect once cut a cat in half without hesitation, just to prove a point. And he was more orthodox, in Buddhist terms, than later Zen practitioners. Zen is very nebulous in terms of morality, because they believe all talk of “good and evil” is dualistic error. They tend to replace the hard and fast rules of, say, Amitabha Buddhism with the idea of “Compassion.” Of course, it may be “compassion” to kill a man before he can hurt others, or if his life is “in vain”.

Most of that, since you demand sources before you’ll believe the sky’s blue, comes from “The Live-Giving Sword” by Yagyuu Munenori, chief of the Shogunate’s official sword school in the early Edo period, and various books on gong fu, as he called it, by Bruce Lee.

Three Treasures of the Buddha, you’re exhausting!

 

[Hastrman]

One more thing:

I question my faith everyday, but people like you help me confirm that i have choosen the right path.

Or in other words, “Thank you, Lord, that I am not like that Pharisee there.”

 

[Steadfast]

Hastrman,

You’re far too knowledgeable to be wallowing away in the mud here.

Tell me, is your nick derivative of the egyptian diety Hastur?

 

[Hastrman]

You’re far too knowledgeable to be wallowing away in the mud here.

Tell me, is your nick derivative of the egyptian diety Hastur?

Shucks, thanks. And no, Hastrman is the Czech for scarecrow, and, along with Bubak(=bugbear), sort of the boogeyman. Specifically, he hides by riverbeds and makes a sound like a baby, then steals your soul when you come to look. He’s not entirely bad, though; the souls are just to keep him company, and he makes little sweaters for them…at least according to the children’s book “Bubacy a Hastrmany” my Grandma had when she was a kid, and brought from Prague when they fled to the US in the early 40s.

His weaving is connected to the moon, sort of like the “midnight spinning” of Romanian vampire lore, by which a varcolaci (a vampire, though the name means werewolf) can steal the moon and cause an eclipse.

I think this topic might be done with (psst, Moderator: close this before we open all these issues back up!)

In closing, Medbh, I don’t think you’ll listen, but lots of luck, sorry for getting ticked here and there, and God bless you, though you don’t believe in Him.

 

[Medbh]

Thanks Zooey …

I apologise for my insensitive-sounding comments Medbh :bowdown2:

I should be more aware that not everyone knows about or takes advantage of the wonderful services that our public libraries provide.

Don’t write brotherhrolf or Zooey off, they are very intelligent and caring people and know what they’re talking about and they didn’t pay me to say that either

Don’t worry about it

The reason why I asked for the links was because I don’t live in an english speaking country, and it can be difficult to find academic books in english at the best of times. Actually, it’s quite difficult to find any english books at all.

 

[LilyM]

Don’t worry about it

The reason why I asked for the links was because I don’t live in an english speaking country, and it can be difficult to find academic books in english at the best of times. Actually, it’s quite difficult to find any english books at all.

Well shucks, if you’d told us that in the first place we wouldn’t have been so mean! :bigyikes:

 

[SAINThoodSEEKER]

Here’s a question…Why are you pagan?..I’ve got time

“Hence we must say that for the knowledge of any truth whatsoever man needs divine help, that the intellect may be moved by God to its act. But he does not need a new light added to his natural light, in order to know the truth in all things, but only in some that surpasses his natural knowledge” (Summa Theologiae, I-II, 109, 1).

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t think Christians hate Pagan if they desire them to be saved.

 

[Medbh]

Here’s a question…Why are you pagan?..I’ve got time

“Hence we must say that for the knowledge of any truth whatsoever man needs divine help, that the intellect may be moved by God to its act. But he does not need a new light added to his natural light, in order to know the truth in all things, but only in some that surpasses his natural knowledge” (Summa Theologiae, I-II, 109, 1).

Why am I Pagan?
well, I could say because that’s what I have always been.
I never really felt at ease with the church’s teachings. It’s like a jacket which is too tight and doesnt’ let you breathe.

Even when I was a Christian I always felt extremely close to Nature and animals, and could never cope with the concept of ‘man dominates nature’… I have always felt myself more as a part of it, rather than a master or an owner. I believe that trees and animals are my brothers, and have an immortal soul as much as I do.

And this is something I always felt, since I was a baby. I was only a few years old when I started hugging trees and treating them and animals as brothers, and at the time I had no idea of what Christianity or Paganism were. It’s just the way I have always been, mirrored in a Faith. And Christianity couldn’t give me this.

So I just found my true way in life. It’s a bit like what you call a ‘calling’.

 

[Medbh]

I don’t think Christians hate Pagan if they desire them to be saved.

Why saved?
Saved from what?
If you mean the devil, I don’t believe in the devil. So why attempt to save someone who doesn’t want to be “saved” because they have already found their happiness?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why saved?
Saved from what?
If you mean the devil, I don’t believe in the devil. So why attempt to save someone who doesn’t want to be “saved” because they have already found their happiness?

I didn’t say the devil. In Paganism there is no salvation compared with Christianity.

Jesus came into the world to save it from their sins. Pagans themselves are sinful people. So God desires all mankind to be saved.

It is written in the heart of man to know God. The more they seek it, they will know the Truth.

Jesus called his disciple to spread the Gospel even to Pagans. If anyone refuse to convert, disciples can leave the area and it will be up to God himself to judge pagans who do not accept Jesus Christ.

 

[Medbh]

I didn’t say the devil. In Paganism there is no salvation compared with Christianity.

Jesus came into the world to save it from their sins. Pagans themselves are sinful people. So God desires all mankind to be saved.

It is written in the heart of man to know God. The more they seek it, they will know the Truth.

How can you say I am sinful? in what ways? you don’t even know me…

The Gods ARE in my heart.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How can you say I am sinful? in what ways? you don’t even know me…

The Gods ARE in my heart.

I don’t know you but God does. There no other gods though. Just one.

but you are pagan so you have many gods…

I have know pagans who are good friends, and some of them are hostiles to Christians…

 

[Medbh]

I don’t know you but God does. There no other gods though. Just one.

but you are pagan so you have many gods…

I have know pagans who are good friends, and some of them are hostiles to Christians…

You believe in just one God. I believe in more than one. So to me there is more than one. It’s how They or Him talk to your heart. And yes they do see in your heart and in your very soul . This is why someone should never be deceitful towards oneself.

I personally am not hostile to Christians, I try and understand their point of view. There are hostile people in every religion, and the reason why they are hostile is because their faith is very weak, and they need to attack others to feel like they have a strong faith.

Perhaps also the Pagans you are talking about get regarded as satanists or devil worshippers or sinners. I know this is the case among some Pagans who don’t even believe in the devil.

We don’t have the concept of ‘sin’. We believe that everybody harvests what they sow. And this prejudice to people is result as offensive.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You believe in just one God. I believe in more than one. So to me there is more than one. It’s how They or Him talk to your heart. And yes they do see in your heart and in your very soul . This is why someone should never be deceitful towards oneself.

I personally am not hostile to Christians, I try and understand their point of view. There are hostile people in every religion, and the reason why they are hostile is because their faith is very weak, and they need to attack others to feel like they have a strong faith.

Perhaps also the Pagans you are talking about get regarded as satanists or devil worshippers or sinners. I know this is the case among some Pagans who don’t even believe in the devil.

We don’t have the concept of ‘sin’. We believe that everybody harvests what they sow. And this prejudice to people is result as offensive.

I didn’t say you are hostile. There are Christians who are hostile to Pagans, just as much as there are pagan who are hostile to Christians.

I know many pagans don’t have the concept of sin but there are those pagans who will turn to Jesus Christ on their own free will; but by force conversions