Christians VS Pagans

[latin_rite]

I think latin rite meant to say that the gods you worship don’t exist and never have - that they’re false gods.

And no, the Christian God isn’t dead … Jesus, one person of our three-in-one God, did die, but resurrected.

Thats excatly what i meant "God’= the one true God of christianity.
"gods’ = the fake man made gods of paganisim.

I agree. But I personally don’t believe in two religions, I believe in one, that is, Paganism. So this is the true one and correct one for me. Objectively, we have nothing to state that one religione is correct, and the other is false…

No you don’t believe in just two religions, if you believe in paganism you believe in thousands. And even they contradict each other.

I agree here too. But who determines what religions are valid and what aren’t?..

God does. not “gods” But God! You know Jesus’s dad LOL
What i feel about “pagans” ( well today “pagans, true pagans died out a thousand years ago) is that they want to believe in a higher power, (GOD) but fear him for some reason. So they make up their own 'gods”. A god that allows them to make up their own rules for the sake of thier own comfort. So get ya head out of the sand pagans. replacing the one true God with some make believe fairy tale isn’t going to save your souls.

 

[Hastrman]

It’s not a matter of who does or does not exist, but of who does or does not exist to the person in question.

So anyone has the right to do whatever they want, so long as they think they’re in the right. Cool. Sorry, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, for castigating you all those years. Turns out you were right, 'cause, since you didn’t believe your victims had rights, they didn’t!

Neato. I’m a go disbelieve in the right of store-owners to their property, the right of women to refuse me sex, and the right of the stupid to continue to breathe. And if you try and call me on it, I’ll just change my beliefs, and say the victims don’t exist to me anymore, so I didn’t hurt anybody.

PS: for the sarcasm challenged, no, I didn’t mean any of that.

PPS: It was Ptolemaius in the second century BC who proved the earth was round. Copernicus resurrected the idea of a sun-centered system, exclusively because it explained the motion of the planets more simply. Galileo added nothing to that theory, but only taught it as if it had already been proved.

 

[Medbh]

Thats excatly what i meant "God’= the one true God of christianity.
"gods’ = the fake man made gods of paganisim.

No you don’t believe in just two religions, if you believe in paganism you believe in thousands. And even they contradict each other.

God does. not “gods” But God! You know Jesus’s dad LOL
What i feel about “pagans” ( well today “pagans, true pagans died out a thousand years ago) is that they want to believe in a higher power, (GOD) but fear him for some reason. So they make up their own 'gods”. A god that allows them to make up their own rules for the sake of thier own comfort. So get ya head out of the sand pagans. replacing the one true God with some make believe fairy tale isn’t going to save your souls.

How would you feel if I offended your god?
This only proves your ignorance and your arrogance.
Can you just offend, put down and despise what differs from you?
Congrats man. if this is what your god teaches you, if these are his teachings about behaviour and respect…well, he ain’t that great after all.:nope:

My religion is MY TRUTH. I’m not asking you to believe in it. Cool down dude

You made a number of statements. you’re so convinced they’re true, you must have some proof. Please share this proof with me.
no bible statements accepted as it means nothing to me.

 

[Medbh]

So anyone has the right to do whatever they want, so long as they think they’re in the right. Cool. Sorry, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, for castigating you all those years. Turns out you were right, 'cause, since you didn’t believe your victims had rights, they didn’t!

Neato. I’m a go disbelieve in the right of store-owners to their property, the right of women to refuse me sex, and the right of the stupid to continue to breathe. And if you try and call me on it, I’ll just change my beliefs, and say the victims don’t exist to me anymore, so I didn’t hurt anybody.

please give me the decency of reading my posts…I’m talking about spirituality here.:tsktsk: :yawn:

PS: for the sarcasm challenged, no, I didn’t mean any of that.

PPS: It was Ptolemaius in the second century BC who proved the earth was round. Copernicus resurrected the idea of a sun-centered system, exclusively because it explained the motion of the planets more simply. Galileo added nothing to that theory, but only taught it as if it had already been proved.

YOUR “omniscent” church burnt people at the stake for speaking the TRUTH.

see for instance:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_bruno

This man was horribly murdered on the order of the church because of what he believed in.

It took 400 years for someone who actually deserves to be called a pope, to apologize and recognize that the church was wrong.

If the church was wrong in this one occasion, how can we be sure that the church has ever been right?

 

[Medbh]

Freedom of expression sure, but there is not freedom, for example, to claim tax benefits for being a self proclaimed pastor of the twinkie God church, nor can Mormons or Muslims legally practice polygamy in the US or other Western countries.

Religious faith that is so easily created is not true faith, and the idea that it can be is insulting to those of us who do genuinely adhere to our religious faith after serious study of it, and often at a cost to ourselves in terms of time and resources.

I know lots of people who go to mass only once a year or when there is a wedding. But they call themselves catholic.
However it is not my place to tell them they’re not proper catholic.

I believe Faith is a personal thing, and it shouldn’ t be interfered with by others.

 

[Medbh]

What seems to be the problem here is that people think that someone believeing in more than one God is wrong. But who says which is right and which is wrong? Nobody can prove to me that there is only one God, if they can i would convert.

What Faith is, is experience, you probably had some spiritual experience in your life to tell you that there is only one God, I had the same experience to tell me that there is not just one God. Who is to say which is right and which is wrong?

If someone here can provide proof that there is only one God then I will happy convert to the belief, but it can’t be proven.

If we go by the idea of 'well more people believe that there is only one God, so that must make it so", most people used to believe that the sun, stars and galaxies moved around the earth, and that the earth was flat and the centre of the universe. Some people will try to say its still that way, but they can’t prove it.

I have come here, to learn from what people have experienced in their lives due to faith, but some people seem bent on conversion, for what reason i don’t know. Faith is what one experiences personally, like pizza is my favourite food, nobody in the world can tell me that i am wrong, it’s down to my own personal experience. Perhaps my preference will change due to experience, but that is only up to me.

Faith is a personal thing, not a battle of which religion is older or has more followers, Icouldn’t care less.

 

[brotherhrolf]

fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.html

 

[Medbh]

fordham.edu/halsall/source/aquinas3.html

welcome back

It’s only his theory but…

Acutally i can pretty much replace the word ‘God’ with ‘Goddess’ or ‘The Gods’ and it still rings true.

There is always the problem when we try to say that our supereme beings exist due to our own theories, they can only be theories, as the human mind is not capable of understanding what is outside our understanding, we cannot grasp the idea of what is infinite, such as a deity or the universe, so it will remain something of faith.

 

[Pater_Ursus]

Most interesting. So, you can take Aquinas’ argument and develop a theology of a god/godess of Twinkies. This is relativism taken to extremes. But you have perked my curiousity.

Tell us how Aquinas can be used to justify a god/godess of Twinkies?

 

[Airmid]

Thats excatly what i meant "God’=
God does. not “gods” But God! You know Jesus’s dad LOL
What i feel about “pagans” ( well today “pagans, true pagans died out a thousand years ago) is that they want to believe in a higher power, (GOD) but fear him for some reason. So they make up their own 'gods”. A god that allows them to make up their own rules for the sake of thier own comfort. So get ya head out of the sand pagans. replacing the one true God with some make believe fairy tale isn’t going to save your souls.

1. There are still a few tribes out there - granted very few deep in the Amazon or perhaps in the Congo - that still practice what you would probably consider pure Paganism. There are also some Native Americans who still practice their beliefs and hand them down in the family with as few adulterations as possible. Pagans with actual tangiable ancestory still do exist - they just aren’t numerous. There are also the Eastern religions - which are considred Paganism by some Christians and many have traceable continuous lines of heritage.
2. A lot of Pagans already believe in a higher power. An intelligent Pagan can engage you in a conversation about this sort of thing - including monolarity. A devout Pagan has no fear of Christian God - they simply see no need for him.
3. I do agree with you that there are a lot of modren American Pagans out there that just seem to make up beliefs that are appeasing to them. That do not challenge them, There are modren Pagans out there who tend to select happy, comfortable beliefs that don’t address anything such as evil, death etc. They are also the ones, in my experience, who return to Christianity after a brief stint in Paganism.

In closing - Pagans do not ‘make up’ their God(s). They don’t come up with deities in a desperate attempt to hide from the Christian God. Pagans may have difficulties talking to Christians because of past experiences - this doesn’t mean that the Pagan can be rude or that they are in fear of the Christian God.

The topic of the thread: The largest problem I have run into is misinformation that Christians have concerning Pagans. Once that is cleared up, then a lot of time conversation flows freely. Of course, every once in awhile you will hit someone so fundamental in their faith that they cannot even talk to a Pagan in a civilized manner - but would one really call that Person a Christian? I wouldn’t - at least at the moment, because of the lack of Christ like behavior.

** Yes I am a what most would consider a Pagan - although I dislike that word. I spent a couple of decades as a Catholic, and even taught the faith. I don’t have an intro posted yet, because I’ was following this thread when I decided to register.

 

[latin_rite]

1. There are still a few tribes out there - granted very few deep in the Amazon or perhaps in the Congo - that still practice what you would probably consider pure Paganism.

Of course there are some natives around the world who still have their own religion. I’m talking about the western branch of paganism. that paganism is dead and buried.

1. A lot of Pagans already believe in a higher power. An intelligent Pagan can engage you in a conversation about this sort of thing - including monolarity. A devout Pagan has no fear of Christian God - they simply see no need for him.

interesting it seems you agree with what I said pagans need to believe in God but can’t. (out of fear in most cases) so they invent their own relegion

In closing - Pagans do not ‘make up’ their God(s). They don’t come up with deities in a desperate attempt to hide from the Christian God. Pagans may have difficulties talking to Christians because of past experiences - this doesn’t mean that the Pagan can be rude or that they are in fear of the Christian God.

All gods besides the Christian God are man made.

every once in awhile you will hit someone so fundamental in their faith that they cannot even talk to a Pagan in a civilized manner - but would one really call that Person a Christian? I wouldn’t - at least at the moment, because of the lack of Christ like behavior.

Not Christ like behavior? I don’t recall Christ telling anyone its ok to be pagan. In fact you’ll find he wasn’t too keen on any form of paganism. so really i’m being very Christ like in that matter. So maybe i am a “fundie”. All Christians should be fundies. If they aren’t fundamental then maybe they aren’t complete Christians.

 

[cheddarsox]

I’m a pantheist, which some people lump with “Pagans” and others do not, but I tend to end up in community with pagans on line, and in the same section of the bookstore etc.

I spent last Saturday at “Pagan Pride day” in a local park.

And I agree, a lot of self appointed “Pagans” are people who make up their own religion as they go along to justify their whims and often stupid behavior. But then again…there are lots of people of any ilk that do that. People who creatively interpret the teachings of their religion to suit themselves. That is just human nature.

In order to differentiate old order, anthropological “Pagans” from the new order ones…is there a different term that could be used? I only use the term pagan when shopping or online, because it really tells nothing about my faith except that I am not a Christian.

It sort of feels like there are two arguments slipping past one another here…there are new order pagan faiths, and people who practice them as a religion, with teachings, ritual, disciplines etc. They are not the same as old native pagan religions, but that doesn’t invalidate them or make them not real.

Every religion has a time when it is “new”, and can’t claim “purity” or whatever litmus test some here are demanding. But that doesn’t mean that it does not serve the function of a religion in the life of it’s followers.

Pointing at someone’s faith and saying…oh yeah…if your great grandaddy didn’t practice that…it aint real…is sort of stupid.

I do think it would be a tremendous help if people could/would find a more useful label than “Pagan”. Which tells next to nothing about most of their beliefs. When people tell me they are Druid, or Asatru, or Kemetic…now we are getting somewhere. Or…it’s ok to say…" I don’t really know what I believe right now, I’m sort of working it out as I go along." Because there are lots of people of every faith backround walking that road as well.

I was in that place for awhile when I was Christian, and then when I wasn’t, but now I have found a faith and I admit, that is a relief for me…to know what I am and what I believe.

cheddar

 

[Medbh]

All gods besides the Christian God are man made…

Please prove this to me? You are making a strong claim but you aren’t backing this claim up with anything.

You, me, Muslims, Jews all worship the same Deity/Aspect, we may just have different names, why are you getting so hot and bothered about other people worshiping in their own way?

 

[Medbh]

And I agree, a lot of self appointed “Pagans” are people who make up their own religion as they go along to justify their whims and often stupid behavior. But then again…there are lots of people of any ilk that do that. People who creatively interpret the teachings of their religion to suit themselves. That is just human nature.

According to the catholic church, Martin Luther would have been one of these people.
I know for a fact lots of catholics who take communion, and are divorced, even priests who know these people are divorced (one example:the former Italian PM, Silvio Berlusconi). I know of people who got married in a catholic church who had their children with them at the time. These people call themselves catholic but in no way follow the churches teachings to the letter, they also don’t think they have done anything wrong.

Which is worse, a person who stays in the church as a hypocrite or a person who leaves to follow a different path, even if it appears strange to others?

 

[Victorious]

Please prove this to me? You are making a strong claim but you aren’t backing this claim up with anything.

You, me, Muslims, Jews all worship the same Deity/Aspect, we may just have different names, why are you getting so hot and bothered about other people worshiping in their own way?

God doesn’t think all gods are the same, as evidenced by the First Commandment: “I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt have no strange gods before me.”

If you need more evidence beyond the word of God, then I don’t know what to tell you.

P.S. I can’t think of anything less compelling than the idea of worshiping an “aspect.”

 

[latin_rite]

I know for a fact lots of catholics who take communion, and are divorced, even priests who know these people are divorced (one example:the former Italian PM, Silvio Berlusconi). I know of people who got married in a catholic church who had their children with them at the time. .

Which is worse, a person who stays in the church as a hypocrite or a person who leaves to follow a different path, even if it appears strange to others?

People can have kids and get married after wards. people can be divorced and still take communion. what the heck are you talking about? WHat is the Preist suppose to say * sorry you already have kids, i know now you’ve realized your sin. but its too late you must continue to live in sin?* So really how are they being hypocrites? I think you know even less about the catholic faith than you do about your {rude comments removed by moderator} faith.But anywho at least hypocrites know what path they are on.

 

[latin_rite]

You, me, Muslims, Jews all worship the same Deity/Aspect, we may just have different names, why are you getting so hot and bothered about other people worshiping in their own way?

SO you’re not a pagan just a heratic.(sp)one min you’re pagan then just a confused follower of God. i think you’re confused. I mean you ask me to prove to you the excistence of God or that he is the only one, then you claim you worship him.

 

[Gnosis]

To a certain extent, I can see how many of the neo- Pagan religions can be said to be “made up”, as the exact nature of the ancient ways of these religions are lost to history. However, they essentially rely on a kind of primordial wisdom, drawing on truths that are as evident now as they were thousands of years ago. At the heart of it, Paganism, as I understand it, is not history bound in the sense that the Abrahamic faiths are.
History for example, has almost no relevance in my personal faith, and many would accuse me of “making my religion up”. Such an accusation would be false…I would think they may be mistaking the liscense for spiritual creativity that my faith affords me with a desire to invent a spiritual path from nothing. For example, to the ire of traditional Christians, I pay homage to the Buddha, to the Hindu deities, to the myths and truths of the many faiths. I incorporate the Wisdom of God wherever it is that she may be found, seeing God beneath whatever name he may have been given. . At the heart of my spirituality lies the twin manifestations of the Eternal Christos, Sophia and Logos, and the inward path that they have laid both before me and within me.

Like the wind, my faith blows where it pleases, and you can not tell where it comes from, or to where it is going

 

[cheddarsox]

According to the catholic church, Martin Luther would have been one of these people.
I know for a fact lots of catholics who take communion, and are divorced, even priests who know these people are divorced (one example:the former Italian PM, Silvio Berlusconi). I know of people who got married in a catholic church who had their children with them at the time. These people call themselves catholic but in no way follow the churches teachings to the letter, they also don’t think they have done anything wrong.

Which is worse, a person who stays in the church as a hypocrite or a person who leaves to follow a different path, even if it appears strange to others?

I’m not going to play the better/worse game, because it’s pointless, but I do think people flourish when they can live with integrity. It doesn’t make any sense to me to tell people you are a certain faith if you don’t believe in the faith and make no effort to live it. On the other hand, it is possible to beleive in it and be trying to live it, but be a miserable failure, but to keep plugging away.

Religion is a really important part of my life, and I think it is important that it serves a function of giving my life structure, meaning and challenging me to improve as a person,and member of society. It must also fit with what I know of reality and truth.

I think a lot of pagans are “hypocrites” with no real intention of following any faith or path, but they just like the counterculture, woo woo factor of “paganism”. I say this as someone who has been active in the “pagan” community for over a decade. I have led pagan groups, go to conferences and festivals, and belong to lots of pagan forums. There are a lot of good hearted, and good spirited people out there who are really living their faith, but I do feel paganism is plagued with a very large percentage of posers who use their supposed faith as justification for irresponsible behavior.

I do not, and do not encourage my children to see themselves as “pagan” or to identify that way. Because "pagan’ is a vague umbrella term that doesn’t tell what a person believes. I think it is important to identify what your faith is a bit more concretely, otherwise it is easy to fall into the anything goes, all symbols are good, whatever attitude that tends to give “pagans” a bad name.

I do not personally agree with choosing a religion basen on how cool their symbols look, or whether their goddess kicks *** or whatever. And I do see a lot of that sort of thing going on. There is a certain “cool” factor, and faddishness in the pagan culture that is pretty sad and pathetic. Sometimes I feel that a lot of people are playing “goddess of the month” rather than working a true faith.

cheddar

 

[Persephone]

I actually get along quite well with Christians, although I’m not very open about my faith. Only my closest friends and family know about my beliefs, and that’s enough. I live in a conservative rural area, and most people around here are evangelicals, including my family. Despite our differences, we have managed to find some common ground.

We both share great love and respect for Deity, a deep admiration for the beauty of Creation, and a desire to live in such a way that brings us closer to God. For my family, that means striving to become more “Christ like,” while for me, that means following my conscience and taking to heart the lessons I’m given.

We differ, of course, in our view of salvation. They believe that Christ is necessary to reach God, while I don’t believe that an intermediary, a middleman, is necessary. I’ve always been skeptical of religion, so my beliefs are based on my own personal experiences with Deity. I could never take anything on faith alone. Some of my experiences have been inner mystical experiences, while others were dramatic and miraculous events that have changed my life in every way.

I don’t consider myself a Wiccan, although there are some similarities. I don’t fit neatly into any “box” so I tend to avoid labels if necessary. Some would consider me a witch; others would call me a mystic, or a Goddess worshipper, or a pagan. It doesn’t really make any difference to me. I am what I am. I find a kindred spirit in people who are devout in their faith, no matter what faith they belong to. This has led me to believe that we are all seeking the same Source, just through different means.

I have a lot of respect for Catholicism, and I enjoy reading about the lives of saints. I find it comforting to know that people like this lived and made a difference in the world. I have a strong desire to dedicate my own life to helping others, of living a simple life of charity. It’s not glamorous, but it’s something that I feel called to do, and I can do no less.

I know that most Christians would still say that I’m being deceived by Satan, but I have to do what I think is right. What else can I do? I think it would be unconscienable to switch religions because of the threat of hell, rather than out of love. I have read most of the Bible, and I honestly don’t think I could love the God portrayed in the OT. He’s nothing like the patient and loving Deity that I know. I suspect if people had to choose between believing what they have experienced firsthand vs what is written in a book, the majority would choose to believe their own experiences. And, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. My path has made me a better person; less arrogant and selfish, more compassionate and loving. It transformed me from a materialistic atheist into someone with complete trust in the higher power, and a heartfelt belief that there is a reason for our existence. In fact, the dramatic change in me is what led my family to accept my path. Christians and pagans (non-Abrahamics) can co-exist without being overly hostile to each other. After all, hostility is not virtue of either path.

Wow, that was much longer than I had intended. My apologies for the length.