Christians VS Pagans

[MikeinSD]

I’ve never had problems with Christians when I discuss doing witchery. Granted, the Christians are mostly friends and very cool about different traditions.

As for evil spell casting, I told my Christian friends it is the equal of praying for someone’s death – i.e. something no ethical person does.

I don’t care about whether one pagan tradition is older or “more real” than another. I figure we’re all human. And therefore we can work as we please — do what ye please but harm no one. The golden rule.

 

[Liberalsaved]

I’ve never had problems with Christians when I discuss doing witchery. Granted, the Christians are mostly friends and very cool about different traditions.

As for evil spell casting, I told my Christian friends it is the equal of praying for someone’s death – i.e. something no ethical person does.

I don’t care about whether one pagan tradition is older or “more real” than another. I figure we’re all human. And therefore we can work as we please — do what ye please but harm no one. The golden rule.

You do these things. Interesting…I’d know more, if you’re willing.

And before someone rips my throat out over this, I’m curious. My nature is of a scholar. Please feel free to keep it to yourself if you want to lodge a complaint, I’m not in the mood. Thank you.

 

[LilyM]

You do these things. Interesting…I’d know more, if you’re willing.

And before someone rips my throat out over this, I’m curious. My nature is of a scholar. Please feel free to keep it to yourself if you want to lodge a complaint, I’m not in the mood. Thank you.

I can’t remember if it was your good self who expressed an interest in the study of Satanism. I jumped on them because getting into Satanism is a completely different kettle of fish to Paganism/Wicca. The latter is non-Catholic to be sure, the former is ANTI-Catholic. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Liberalsaved]

I can’t remember if it was your good self who expressed an interest in the study of Satanism. I jumped on them because getting into Satanism is a completely different kettle of fish to Paganism/Wicca. The latter is non-Catholic to be sure, the former is ANTI-Catholic. Therein lies the difference.

Any interest I have in anything that is any business of anyone but me is purely of an academic sort, but you’re not thinking of me here, nonetheless.

 

[Ahimsa]

The title of this thread is a bit unclear, especially on the “pagan” side of things. Are we talking specifically about European/Mediterranean pre-Christian religions, or about non-Abrahamic religions in general? In either case, the diversity in practices and beliefs would be enormous.

 

[Medbh]

I don’t hate anyone, if I can avoid it.

My sister is wiccan, but that’s the least of why she’s not welcomein my home or around my children.

I think many associate paganism with satanism.

**As christians, that’s often a natural reaction. It isn’t hate. It’s just a desire to avoid perceived (real or not) evil influences. **

Maybe the pagan is taking it too personal?

Acutally all Pagans I know and most in general don’t even believe in this presence called satan, he is just as real as anyother make believe character. Pagans in general believe that we take our own actions and that some ‘demon’ is not to blame.

Christians have closer links to satanism, due to the up-side-down cross for example

Pagans don’t believe in satan, how can you use/worship some you don’t believe in?

I also know of protestants who claim that the Pope is the anti-christ.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley#Political_Life

 

[corvidae]

Just one thing,
Before anyone says one more thing about spirals,
They have been used by almost every culture, and almost every religion, so can we quit saying one group invented it. It seems to be cross-cultural.

Second, unless you are in fact following a religion passed down from your ancestors in terms of paganism, what are you following?
Do you make it up as you go, look at books and glean from them, just ask God, or the god and godess and say what should I do, or what.

Bascially, I am wondering how you can define yourself as pagan, if you don’t want to be put in a little box. You accused others of trying to label you, but you have already labeled yourself. Don’t blame them if they pull some conclusions from the label you gave yourself.

One thing I do have to ask, is how would you explain your religion to someone, and to help out brotherhrolf, the question is, can you question your religion.

And do you have something to question, or does it change every time you question it.

I hope this helps.

A lone raven

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Acutally all Pagans I know and most in general don’t even believe in this presence called satan, he is just as real as anyother make believe character. Pagans in general believe that we take our own actions and that some ‘demon’ is not to blame.

Christians have closer links to satanism, due to the up-side-down cross for example

Pagans don’t believe in satan, how can you use/worship some you don’t believe in?

I also know of protestants who claim that the Pope is the anti-christ.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley#Political_Life

I don’t doubt any of that.
The question was why christians react in a personal way, and I proposed a reason.
Also, many christians view any non-christian belief as the work of the devil. It has nothing to do with the actual thoughts of the individual pagan. Or catholic for that matter. I’ve met prots who said I was going to hell because I’m catholic. They view Catholicism as pagan.
Most, or at least many, christians view any non-christian religion to be “pagan”.

 

[Medbh]

I don’t define myself as anything. I call myself Pagan, not Celtic only or Roman only, i attune myself to nature and to the Devine which dwells in everything.

My religion is based on Natural Cycles, and Nature itself, which is seen as a expression of the Deities.

I have to question my faith everyday, as its a path i have to discover for myself. While some christians will turn to their bible for help when they are faced with a problem. I try to face it myself and then if i cannot i ask the Deities for help and always give an offering (such as bread or milk, wine, fruit for example) as thanks. At the Festivals, we pray together, feast, make rituals (a bit like what mass represents for you), and give thanks to the Deities, and leave offerings as another sign of thanks (usually a portion of the meal).

If you can label me something specific after that then good luck

 

[brotherhrolf]

Source please

Nordenfalk, Carl, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting, George Braziller, Inc., New York, 1977.

Westwood, J.O., The Art of Illuminated Manuscripts, Arch Cape Press, New York, 1988.

 

[Medbh]

Nordenfalk, Carl, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Painting, George Braziller, Inc., New York, 1977.

Westwood, J.O., The Art of Illuminated Manuscripts, Arch Cape Press, New York, 1988.

Your links are not working

:whacky: :crying:

I didn’t find a reference to the first or second book in wikipedia not even the authors.

Anyway i found the first one in amazon, and the reviews of people who bought the book are in general quite critical. This book doesn’t seem to do as it claims

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807608262?v=glance

the second book doesn’t even have reviews, who bought it???

amazon.com/Illuminated-Manuscript-David-Metheny-Robb/dp/0879820012/sr=1-1/qid=1158015221/ref=sr_1_1/102-8803949-2981769?ie=UTF8&s=books

please provide some proper sources, i don’t like doing other people’s leg work.

BTW this source is as valid as yours. If you know Ricky Gervais talked about it

amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Natural-Diversity/dp/0312192398

 

[brotherhrolf]

Acutally to correct you on something the symbol i use in my sig, is not Celtic it’s before them

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Grange

Just hope you won’t try and say that this was invented by Monks???

Ah, Wikipedia, that fount of knowledge. I am more than familiar with the New Grange site. It is contemporaneous with the Bell Beaker Globular Amphorae people of Central Europe who have been identified as the earliest of the Celtic peoples. And the poster who made the comment about spirals is quite correct about spirals but your mark is identified as the beginning of the triskele or triskelion - a hallmark of early Celtic culture. Celtic culture goes back over 5,000 years long before the Irish monks penned the Book of Kells.

Source:

Piggott, Stuart, Ancient Europe, Aldine Publishing Company, Chicago, 1965.

Renfrew, Colin, Before Civilization, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1973.

I am not trying to “convert” you. I have previously said that I am approaching this whole discussion from an anthropological point of view. I have an undergraduate degree and a graduate degree in anthropology and have taken graduate seminars on early European archaeology and comparitive religions. I don’t even like the word “pagan” because it has such negative overtones. I would prefer to use the term native religions which cannot describe what you purport to profess for all the reasons I have outlined previously.

I don’t care if you say you worship Cthulhu who lies dreaming in R’lyeh. There are people out there who belief in that too even though the Necronomicon is an invention of H.P. Lovecraft, pulp writer of the 1930s. Whatever any of that may be, it is not a religion in an anthropological sense and certainly not a native religion.

A faith which cannot be challenged is no faith at all.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Your links are not working

:whacky: :crying:

I didn’t find a reference to the first or second book in wikipedia not even the authors.

Anyway i found the first one in amazon, and the reviews of people who bought the book are in general quite critical. This book doesn’t seem to do as it claims

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0807608262?v=glance

the second book doesn’t even have reviews, who bought it???

amazon.com/Illuminated-Manuscript-David-Metheny-Robb/dp/0879820012/sr=1-1/qid=1158015221/ref=sr_1_1/102-8803949-2981769?ie=UTF8&s=books

please provide some proper sources, i don’t like doing other people’s leg work.

Did it ever occur to you that these might, just might, be textbooks which I have had in my possession since going to school? Reviews? Who bought it? YOU don’t like to do other people’s leg work!!! I provide you with an accepted style of documentation used by most universities and you want links to amazon.com!!!

Medbh, you now have my sympathy. Your prior remarks have been intellectually dishonest and the above listed remarks can only be described as intellectually lazy. Amazon.com, indeed.

 

[corvidae]

I would have to agree with hrolf,

wikipedia may not be the best source of knowledge out there. Anyone can post anything on wikipedia, meaning it can say anything.

In addition, I would like to ask why you refer to yourself as pagan, or is it just so you can call yourself something?

perhaps I can also point out, hrolf said that the knotwork commonly associated with celts (he said was, I say could be) etheopian.

You simply pointed out a spiral, not a celtic knot, as commonly thought of.

A lone raven

 

[Medbh]

Ah, Wikipedia, that fount of knowledge. I am more than familiar with the New Grange site. It is contemporaneous with the Bell Beaker Globular Amphorae people of Central Europe who have been identified as the earliest of the Celtic peoples. And the poster who made the comment about spirals is quite correct about spirals but your mark is identified as the beginning of the triskele or triskelion - a hallmark of early Celtic culture. Celtic culture goes back over 5,000 years long before the Irish monks penned the Book of Kells.

Source:

Piggott, Stuart, Ancient Europe, Aldine Publishing Company, Chicago, 1965.

Renfrew, Colin, Before Civilization, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1973.

I am not trying to “convert” you. I have previously said that I am approaching this whole discussion from an anthropological point of view. I have an undergraduate degree and a graduate degree in anthropology and have taken graduate seminars on early European archaeology and comparitive religions. I don’t even like the word “pagan” because it has such negative overtones. I would prefer to use the term native religions which cannot describe what you purport to profess for all the reasons I have outlined previously.

I don’t care if you say you worship Cthulhu who lies dreaming in R’lyeh. There are people out there who belief in that too even though the Necronomicon is an invention of H.P. Lovecraft, pulp writer of the 1930s. Whatever any of that may be, it is not a religion in an anthropological sense and certainly not a native religion.

A faith which cannot be challenged is no faith at all.

Yawn, you expect me to do more searching for you? Think as you want.

Also i could go on a website and pretend to have a degree to demand respect, but i don’t.

This is not about the origions of symbols in my signature, please stay on topic. But i have to thank you in a way for helping me to clear up a few things i thought about christianity. I question my faith everyday, but people like you help me confirm that i have choosen the right path.

 

[Medbh]

I would have to agree with hrolf,

wikipedia may not be the best source of knowledge out there. Anyone can post anything on wikipedia, meaning it can say anything.

In addition, I would like to ask why you refer to yourself as pagan, or is it just so you can call yourself something?

perhaps I can also point out, hrolf said that the knotwork commonly associated with celts (he said was, I say could be) etheopian.

You simply pointed out a spiral, not a celtic knot, as commonly thought of.

A lone raven

hmmmm horlf was saying i was using celtic symbols and then said that i must be a celtic pagan, i pointed to a site which says different. He supplies names of books, which i have no intention of buying and waiting 3 weeks to arrive. Actually wikipedia isn’t too bad, as there are certain checks and balances in what is published, but it’s a lot better than nothing at all, which was provided to me.

The spiral was found inside New Grange, which was built 1000 years before stone henge. A good while before any christian monks

 

[corvidae]

I do not want to keep doing this, but you seem to keep missing the point.

Hrolf is an anthropoligist, he studies cultures and religions, that is something that may come into play in a conversation such as this. In addition to this, you seem to think that his studies have no bearing, but he consistantly points out that you either conform to what we know of historical paganism, or neo-paganism, or something else entirely.

He is attempting to figure out something about your religion, not so he can convert you, but so that he can talk to you. You started a thread to start people talking, but you seem to not give them enough information to actually talk to you in any meaningful sense.

Look, he has experiance, he has education, if anyone has something intelligent to say to you on the topic, I would say it would be him. Perhaps you would get more out of his comments if you looked at it as someone interested in talking, rather than interested in persecuting you.

You do seem to believe that many people on this thread are trying to convert you or persecute you. Perhaps to confirm beliefs that you already had. I don’t know, but it seems like alot of hostility is happening.

Just a few thoughts,

A lone raven

 

[corvidae]

A spiral is not a celtic knot,

they are different, and he may be talking about something completely differently than you were talking about.

Second, you asked for references,
He provided them, in a scholarly accepted manner, even if you didn’t like it.

He did as you asked

A lone raven

 

[Medbh]

Did it ever occur to you that these might, just might, be textbooks which I have had in my possession since going to school? Reviews? Who bought it? YOU don’t like to do other people’s leg work!!! I provide you with an accepted style of documentation used by most universities and you want links to amazon.com!!!

Medbh, you now have my sympathy. Your prior remarks have been intellectually dishonest and the above listed remarks can only be described as intellectually lazy. Amazon.com, indeed.

LOL!!! I’m intellectually lazy, well i don’t need to tell the world in almost every post i make that i have a ‘degree’? I didn’t ask for links to amazon.com, i want somewhere i can read the book, online as i will not be wasting time and money getting my hands on these books, which could be completly useless to me. If you think they will give me the information you suggest, i suggest you do some leg work.

Forget it, I will not waste anymore time with you.

 

[Medbh]

If he has a question to ask, ask it. He won’t provide proof of his claims which i can read, here and now, and he is trying to say that i am things that i clearly feel i am not.

What part of this can he not accept?

He is attempting to say that I am a Celtic Pagan, and that i can’t be one as they don’t exist anymore or something to that extent. I have never claimed to be one. So he then claims then that I am a different type of one, which i don’t make any stake upon. If it makes him feel better let him call me a Neo-Pagan .

Now if you want to ask any specific questions regarding MY RELIGION please do.

Or will we go around and around with ‘links to the past’.