Christmas, Mary, and the LDS

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sallybutler said:
That is a major difference. You are saying we are all eternal, without beginning or ending just like God. We believe we did not exist until.the miracle of conception occurs, that only God is eternal.
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Correct. That is why the birth of Christ is not a unique event to a Mormon.
 
jane_doe said:
Your parent’s are the parent’s of your body, but not your spirit. That’s the Father. Even your body is ultimately a creation of the Father’s and not your parent’s because ultimately He made all your bodies and the way for more to be made. Furthermore, through your salvation is a child of your Father’s. ** He IS your Father!**
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But, God the Father is actually not my Father if He wasn’t around when I came into existence. If I never came into existence (meaning that I have always existed), then He has no claim to the title of Father. He might be “Custodian”, or “Care Giver” or “Giver of Great Grace”, but not “Father”.
When you say “timeline distinction” you make it sound inevitable. This is not the case.
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Well, I did use the example of a single celled human. A single celled human may or may not be able to develop into an adult due to whatever problems might crop up. We know that it is not inevitable for that single cell to become an adult. But, for that human that was conceived just moments ago, even though there is a huge difference between me and that single celled organism, the difference is only due to a displaced starting point for the two timelines (theirs and mine).

It is the fact that these single celled organisms are human that gives them value (unlike, say, a single skin cell - I wouldn’t mourn the death of a skin cell, for example.) But, the single celled human has a different nature than one of my skin cells.
No- God has the amazing power to make beings as wonderful as Himself.
This is not ability in the Nicene view of God.
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Thanks for that answer. That does help a lot.
In_servitude, I have a question for you: do you feel that God must be made up a super-metaphyiscasl stuff* in order to be deserving of worship?
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I have not pondered this question before. So, here is my gut reaction: I don’t worship God because He has earned it. I worship God because it pleases me to do so. One might argue that I’m pleased BECAUSE God is made of “spiritually exciting stuff.” But, my gut tells me that my worship comes about due to the love I experience from Him, and so it ends up being returned back to Him through worship.
Or is His love, glory, wonders, patience grace, salvation, etc worthy of worship?
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When I see the words in your question “worthy of worship”, it doesn’t seem to fit my thinking. I have gone through periods of my past where I thought I could do things through shear determination and will power. But, God has been kind enough to let me see that I actually can do very little on my own. But, He has also shown that I can do amazing things through Him grace. So, my worship of God is a part of a relationship that I have with God - it is a part of my interaction with God.

One thing that just came to mind here: it takes me a long time to understand the words that you use. I’m going to guess that when I use the word “worship” and you use the word “worship”, we are talking about two very different things.
I’m asking because you seem very focused on this metaphysical nature stuff*, but keep not replying to my comments about His love, patience, etc.
(*“stuff” being my very generic place holder word, for my inability to think of a better one right now).
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This thread is about the differences between Catholic understanding of Christmas (the Incarnation) and the LDS understanding of Christmas. Even atheist exhibit love toward one another, patience towards one another, and so your comments about His love and patience have not helped me to understand the differences in the teachings of the LDS and the Catholics about God. That is why I have responded to you the way that I have.
 
in_servitude said:
Can you name one thing that God is now that you will not become eventually become (through His grace and your cooperation?) I doubt that is possible, unless you are speaking of details, such as God is the savior of “this world” and you could never be that. If you can be the savior of the world you create with your dear hubby, then, from the way I look at it, there is no real difference.
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jane_doe said:
No- God has the amazing power to make beings as wonderful as Himself.
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in_servitude said:
So, is there one thing you can name that doesn’t reflect the timeline understanding that I have? If so, then it would be a first for me.
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jane_doe said:
…
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Again, this exchange shows how the birth of Christ is not a unique event in Mormonism. All humans, including Christ, are god in embryo.
 
Stephen168 said:
Correct. That is why the birth of Christ is not a unique event to a Mormon.
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I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.

👍
 
in_servitude said:
But, God the Father is actually not my Father if He wasn’t around when I came into existence. If I never came into existence (meaning that I have always existed), then He has no claim to the title of Father. He might be “Custodian”, or “Care Giver” or “Giver of Great Grace”, but not “Father”…
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You seem to be minimizing the completely 100000000000000% change He has had in your life and will continue to have.
in_servitude said:
I have not pondered this question before. So, here is my gut reaction: I don’t worship God because He has earned it. I worship God because it pleases me to do so.
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Note: I realize I made a very poor word choice error here. I didn’t mean to imply that you or anyone else worship God because he earned it. My apologies for that unthinking mistake. I meant what about God inspires your worship, or why do you worship-- what about Him is wonderful.
in_servitude said:
One might argue that I’m pleased BECAUSE God is made of “spiritually exciting stuff.” But, my gut tells me that my worship comes about due to the love I experience from Him, and so it ends up being returned back to Him through worship…
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So to sum up: it’s about His love, and not the stuff?
in_servitude said:
One thing that just came to mind here: it takes me a long time to understand the words that you use. I’m going to guess that when I use the word “worship” and you use the word “worship”, we are talking about two very different things.
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“worship” = to adore, revere, honor, praise, follow, love.
Is that different than your definition?
in_servitude said:
This thread is about the differences between Catholic understanding of Christmas (the Incarnation) and the LDS understanding of Christmas. Even atheist exhibit love toward one another, patience towards one another, and so your comments about His love and patience have not helped me to understand the differences in the teachings of the LDS and the Catholics about God. That is why I have responded to you the way that I have.
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An atheist doesn’t adore/worship/celebrate an all loving wonderful God, let alone celebrate the Savior’s birth. So I’m not sure how that equates in.
 
sallybutler said:
I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.

👍
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“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” Jer. 1:4–5;
 
sallybutler said:
No where in the bible is there a mention of Sally existing at all. So maybe I don’t exist even now.
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You said: “I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.” Do you have a reference for this?
LivingWaters7 said:
Can you please provide a verse where it says that everything needs to be in the Bible?
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If you as a Catholic would like to cite a source ex cathedra, I would be pleased to have that reference.
 
jane_doe said:
You said: “I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.” Do you have a reference for this?

If you as a Catholic would like to cite a source ex cathedra, I would be pleased to have that reference.
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Because you can no longer defend Mormonism , you get snarky. And use Catholic phrases out of context. Last time you got snarky, you made up a phrase thinking it was Catholic.
 
jane_doe said:
You said: “I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.” Do you have a reference for this?

If you as a Catholic would like to cite a source ex cathedra, I would be pleased to have that reference.
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John1:1 for Jesus.

God to Job Where were you when I founded the earth. Job38:4. God being sarcastic reminding Job he did not exist when the world was created (one of my favorite chapters)

Gen 1:27. God created only one man and one woman. He told them to be fertile and multiply. It doesn’t say billions and billions were created and will be waiting to take there turn in a body.
 
jane_doe said:
You said: “I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.” Do you have a reference for this?

If you as a Catholic would like to cite a source ex cathedra, I would be pleased to have that reference.
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Here is another quote to ponder on from Matthew. Does it mean some people do not exist, have no soul?

And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness. - Matthew 7:23
 
sallybutler said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John1:1 for Jesus.
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I didn’t ask about Jesus. Do you have a reference to support your statement: “I probably should have said our souls are not created until the moment of conception, while Jesus, aka the Word, was, is, and ever shall be.”

Do you have a reference about you?
sallybutler said:
Here is another quote to ponder on from Matthew. Does it mean some people do not exist, have no soul?

And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness. - Matthew 7:23
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Again, if you want to talk about a different topic feel free to start a thread on it.
 
LivingWaters7 said:
Huh? :confused: Why would I like to cite a source ex cathedra?
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I’m guessing that my phrasing was nontypical. What is the typical phrasing of a request for a reference which has been infallibly declared, such as exampled in ex cathedra?
 
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