Christmas, Mary, and the LDS

[zaffiroborant]

I’m guessing that my phrasing was nontypical. What is the typical phrasing of a request for a reference which has been infallibly declared, such as exampled in ex cathedra?

What LivingWaters7 is saying here is you don’t understand infallibility, or Catholic teaching at all, and Ex Cathedra in particular.

 

[jane_doe]

What LivingWaters7 is saying here is you don’t understand infallibility, or Catholic teaching at all, and Ex Cathedra in particular.

If you feel thus, you feel free to elaborate on the concept. There is much about Catholicism I have yet to learn.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m guessing that my phrasing was nontypical. What is the typical phrasing of a request for a reference which has been infallibly declared, such as exampled in ex cathedra?

There isn’t a compiled list of all the infallible teachings of the Church.

The authoritative teachers are the Pope, Magesterium and all the Bishops in communion with the Pope. (The Magesterium is comprised of Bishops and the Pope is a Bishop.)

You can just say, what is the official teaching of the Church, and ask for any references about a particular teaching.

 

[Stephen168]

If you feel thus, you feel free to elaborate on the concept. There is much about Catholicism I have yet to learn.

Why bother. You claim to want to understand Catholicism yet reject any attempt to learn. I’ve watched for the last two days while Catholics have tried to teach you the Catholic understanding of God. The same understanding held by 99% of all Christians and Mormons for the first 4 years of their history.
After a Catholic tries to explain, all we got back was “Transcendence? That’s not LDS Theology” “Nature? We don’t use that word.” WE KNOW YOU DON’T but we are trying to explain Catholicism.

Starting with your first post on this thread you have made NO attempt to understand the Catholic/Christian understand of God and the incarnation.

The ex-Mormons have explained the difference between Mormon and Christian thinking; review post #8, #16, #18. All we get from you is: We, too. We, too.
Starting with what one ex-Mormon showed to be your false claim about Christ in Mormonism.

Then when you find yourself in a hole of your own making you start mocking Catholicism my using latin phrases out of context.

It is the very understanding of the Catholic/Christian understanding of God which makes the incarnation a BIG deal. Read post #8 and try to actually understand it. Understand it. Ask questions when you don’t instead of a knee jerk, “we, too.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

Looks to me like the real difference here is the Catholic belief in creation ex-nihilo, and label placed on Christ’s birth. The Book of Mormon refers to Christ leaving His heavenly abode as “The Condescension of God” (See lds.org/ensign/2001/12/the-condescension-of-god?lang=eng for more information.)

Sure, and like all Mormon teachings that use Christian words and phrases, the meaning has been changed. That article is the poster child for this practice. Where to even begin?

How about, teaching that the Father also condescended in order to become the literal Father of Jesus Christ.

Or, “Jesus Christ, the God of this world”, which brings in what has already been discussed regarding Mormonism teaching that Jesus is A God. One God of many gods.

You add in creation itself, and the materialism of souls as taught by Mormonism, that has also been discussed,

We could then add in the overall purpose of our redemption, which hasn’t been discussed in this thread. The answer to the question, why do we need a Savior, is very different for Mormonism as compared to Christianity.

As I said, the Incarnation brings out the deep divide of Mormonism from Christianity.

 

[jane_doe]

There isn’t a compiled list of all the infallible teachings of the Church.

The authoritative teachers are the Pope, Magesterium and all the Bishops in communion with the Pope. (The Magesterium is comprised of Bishops and the Pope is a Bishop.)

You can just say, what is the official teaching of the Church, and ask for any references about a particular teaching.

This is interesting. I will have to start another thread on it.

 

[in_servitude]

You seem to be minimizing the completely 100000000000000% change He has had in your life and will continue to have.

As we discuss the belief that God the Father is my “actual” father, I’m not sure what it matters how much change has occurred in my life. I am trying to understand the LDS mindset about two things that seem impossible to me. 1) God the Father is my literal father, and 2) I have always existed and at no time did I come into existence.

I meant what about God inspires your worship, or why do you worship-- what about Him is wonderful.

In my faith tradition, it is about relationship. I believe that God the Father is in perfect communion with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. And, I believe that God creates in accord with His nature - and a part of that Creation is God’s invitation for us to be intimately in union with Him. So, it is through my personal experience that as I learned more about God and turned more of my life over to Him, I found it to be better.

So to sum up: it’s about His love, and not the stuff?

To tie it back to the OP - it is about being in relationship with a God who loved us by showing us His love by 1) making the sacrifice to deign to become human and live among us in humble conditions 2) teaching us the way 3) giving us the means to experience Him (which for me, is through His Church) and 4) accepting His passion and death at the hands of us due to our sinfulness - all to just demonstrate His love (He could have just told us, but it is Jesus on the cross that allows for the love to be expressed in ways that are meaningful.

“worship” = to adore, revere, honor, praise, follow, love.
Is that different than your definition?

For me, worship is tied closely to sacrifice. Adoration is a part of that. There are public and private components to worship.

An atheist doesn’t adore/worship/celebrate an all loving wonderful God, let alone celebrate the Savior’s birth. So I’m not sure how that equates in.

Love is not something uniquely Christian, and love can occur in all sorts of places that are not godly. I have an atheist friend here at work, and I am impressed with the love he shows his wife. One time, he had a biking accident and needed stitches. But, his wife had plans that were about to be ruined with his trip to the emergency room. He made the choice to forego anesthesia in order to get the stitches in time to avoid messing up his wife’s plans (it was an outing with her sisters). That is love - right there (sacrifice is integral to love). But, he’s an atheist and makes that known to those around him (not the militant style - he’s a tolerant atheist). Anyway, just because someone experiences love (even extraordinary love like kind from my atheist friend) from another being does not make them a god. That is my point here.

 

[Horton]

This is interesting. I will have to start another thread on it.

There is no need for another thread on this^^^^^ There is a whole website called Catholic Answers about the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[jane_doe]

As we discuss the belief that God the Father is my “actual” father,

Again, there are more definitions of “Father” than those involving a birth canal.

In my faith tradition, it is about relationship. I believe that God the Father is in perfect communion with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. And, I believe that God creates in accord with His nature - and a part of that Creation is God’s invitation for us to be intimately in union with Him. So, it is through my personal experience that as I learned more about God and turned more of my life over to Him, I found it to be better.

That is a beautiful statement. It is likewise in the LDS faith.

Anticipating your next question of “but in the LDS faith I have always existed, how is God a creator?”. Answer: yes you have always existed by He imbued you with His Goodness, you are who you are because He created you.

To tie it back to the OP - it is about being in relationship with a God who loved us by showing us His love by 1) making the sacrifice to deign to become human and live among us in humble conditions 2) teaching us the way 3) giving us the means to experience Him (which for me, is through His Church) and 4) accepting His passion and death at the hands of us due to our sinfulness - all to just demonstrate His love (He could have just told us, but it is Jesus on the cross that allows for the love to be expressed in ways that are meaningful…

Another beautiful statement. Yes, yes, and yes!

“worship” = to adore, revere, honor, praise, follow, love.

For me, worship is tied closely to sacrifice. Adoration is a part of that. There are public and private components to worship.

Seeking clarification: would you say that these are different definitions?

Love is not something uniquely Christian, and love can occur in all sorts of places that are not godly. I have an atheist friend here at work, and I am impressed with the love he shows his wife. One time, he had a biking accident and needed stitches. But, his wife had plans that were about to be ruined with his trip to the emergency room. He made the choice to forego anesthesia in order to get the stitches in time to avoid messing up his wife’s plans (it was an outing with her sisters). That is love - right there (sacrifice is integral to love). But, he’s an atheist and makes that known to those around him (not the militant style - he’s a tolerant atheist). Anyway, just because someone experiences love (even extraordinary love like kind from my atheist friend) from another being does not make them a god. That is my point here.

I’m not doubting your friends ability to love (he seems quite awesome in that regard), but I’m not sure how this particularly has to do with the subject of celebrating the Savior’s birth (since your friend does not).

 

[jane_doe]

This is interesting. I will have to start another thread on it.

Thread started: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14346968#post14346968

 

[in_servitude]

Again, there are more definitions of “Father” than those involving a birth canal.

I’m okay to leave this at that. I think we understand each other. You are saying that God the Father is your literal father because of what He is to you, how He has changed your life, and what He does in your life.

I am left with this big question mark on how two things can both be: 1) God the Father is the “literal father” of everyone and 2) Everyone has been in existence forever without a beginning. The problem that I have with what I understand you are saying is that “literal father” is different from “adoptive father.”

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will, for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.

Your explanation sounds a lot like adoption to me, not the “literal” father.

Seeking clarification: would you say that these are different definitions?

Maybe. Much of my worship takes place within the liturgy of the mass where there is real sacrifice involved.

I’m not doubting your friends ability to love (he seems quite awesome in that regard), but I’m not sure how this particularly has to do with the subject of celebrating the Savior’s birth (since your friend does not).

I am attempting to respond to your questions of me about love. So, to get us back on track, you tell me what love has to do with Christmas and how and LDS person experiences Christmas.

 

[jane_doe]

I am attempting to respond to your questions of me about love. So, to get us back on track, you tell me what love has to do with Christmas and how and LDS person experiences Christmas.

At Christmas I (and other Christians) celebrate the birth of my Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He was sent by my Heavenly Father, because they so deeply love me. I love them as well (granted not nearly to their depth), and celebrate the gift of the coming of the Son of God.

 

[Faith1960]

Sorry Mormons never teach that Jesus IS God. Maybe a god, who was not fully god, and a half god becuase of DNA or some such nonsense, until the resurrection.

Any spirit in the Mormon belief system could have been your idea of savior.

Only God can save us. Jesus is God. He could not be replaced with another volunteer. As there is no other. Least of all a fallen angel.

I’m not meaning to hijack this thread but did Jesus’ DNA come from both Mary and the Holy Spirit or how else was He male?

 

[JMM1957]

I’m not meaning to hijack this thread but did Jesus’ DNA come from both Mary and the Holy Spirit or how else was He male?

We believe Jesus had Mary’s DNA, the rest is part of the mystery of the workings of God. LDS might explain it by saying God the Father, having a flesh and bone body, implanted his DNA into Mary miraculously. I’m sure an LDS will correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not meaning to hijack this thread but did Jesus’ DNA come from both Mary and the Holy Spirit or how else was He male?

God doesn’t have DNA, as God is Spirit.

The conception of Jesus is a miracle, meaning it cannot be explained by science, including medical science or DNA.

For Mormonism, it would be their Heavenly Father’s DNA, based on their teaching that God is a human.

 

[gazelam]

For Mormonism, it would be their Heavenly Father’s DNA, based on their teaching that God is a human.

Isn’t it odd how Jesus referred to His Father as a man several times?

Matthew 20:28 Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?

Mark 2:10 *But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth
*
Mark 8:31 He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and rise after three days.

I could go on…

Also, Acts 17:29 states that we are of the same species as God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

“offspring” in this verse is translated from the greek “genos”, which means race, stock, or kin.

 

[sallybutler]

Isn’t it odd how Jesus referred to His Father as a man several times?

Matthew 20:28 Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?

Mark 2:10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth

Mark 8:31 He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and rise after three days.

I could go on…

Also, Acts 17:29 states that we are of the same species as God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

“offspring” in this verse is translated from the greek “genos”, which means race, stock, or kin.

To misquote The Princess Bride, I do not think that Son of Man means what you think Son of Man means.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To misquote The Princess Bride, I do not think that Son of Man means what you think Son of Man means.

No kidding.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Isn’t it odd how Jesus referred to His Father as a man several times?

Matthew 20:28 Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?

Mark 2:10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth

Mark 8:31 He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and rise after three days.

I could go on…

Also, Acts 17:29 states that we are of the same species as God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

“offspring” in this verse is translated from the greek “genos”, which means race, stock, or kin.

The Word of God became the Son of Man. In the OT, the phrase is used to distinguish man from God. In the NT, Jesus applies the title to Himself, as a pronoun that replaces “I”.

God became Man and dwelt among us.

We have discussed being offspring before, so I think you must be playing obtuse.

By our baptism we participate in a divine, supernatural adopttiom. See Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4 for the charter of our adoption.

 

[gazelam]

God became Man and dwelt among us.

Where was God the Father during this time? Do you believe He was also incarnated among us?

We have discussed being offspring before, so I think you must be playing obtuse.

Funny you show say that. I once considered changing my CAF logon name to GazelamTheObtuse, but later decided against it.

By our baptism we participate in a divine, supernatural adopttiom. See Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and Galatians 4 for the charter of our adoption.

The chapters you cite correctly teach that those those who are born again/born from above (John 3:5) or converted/turned to God (Luke 22:32) are adopted sons and daughters of God.

However, the Bible also speaks of God as a literal father as was the case in Acts17:29 I referenced earlier and also Hebrews 12:9.

Hebrews 12:9 Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live?

The Bible speaks of both adopted and literal parentage.