Christmas, Mary, and the LDS

[gazelam]

To misquote The Princess Bride, I do not think that Son of Man means what you think Son of Man means.

What fun would a debate forum be is everyone be if everyone expressed the exact same belief? Take care.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Where was God the Father during this time? Do you believe He was also incarnated among us?

Funny you show say that. I once considered changing my CAF logon name to GazelamTheObtuse, but later decided against it.

The chapters you cite correctly teach that those those who are born again/born from above (John 3:5) or converted/turned to God (Luke 22:32) are adopted sons and daughters of God.

However, the Bible also speaks of God as a literal father as was the case in Acts17:29 I referenced earlier and also Hebrews 12:9.

Hebrews 12:9 Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live?

The Bible speaks of both adopted and literal parentage.

Jesus IS God. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. The Father is not Incarnate.

We are children of the Father through adoption, in and through, the Son.

Acts is addressing the issue of pagan idols. We are offspring, born again in spirit, through our baptism which joins us to the Sonship of Jesus Christ. You shouldn’t ignore the entire context, within a single passage or the NT as a whole. It is clear, in context, we are made joint heirs with Christ as adopted Sons and Daughters, in the rebirth of baptism. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anagoge

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father.

 

[JMM1957]

Where was God the Father during this time? Do you believe He was also incarnated among us?

I think you know what a Catholic’s answer to this question would be. Not accepting our definition and understanding of the Holy Trinity puts you in a position of not comprehending the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[jane_doe]

I think you know what a Catholic’s answer to this question would be. Not accepting our definition and understanding of the Holy Trinity puts you in a position of not comprehending the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Do you think it impossible for a person to understand another’s view and still disagree?

 

[Stephen168]

Isn’t it odd how Jesus referred to His Father as a man several times?

Matthew 20:28 Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?

Mark 2:10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth

Mark 8:31 He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer greatly and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and rise after three days.

I could go on…

Also, Acts 17:29 states that we are of the same species as God.

Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

“offspring” in this verse is translated from the greek “genos”, which means race, stock, or kin.

The reason Mormon’s believe God was once a man, and is made of flesh and bone has nothing to do with your exegesis of the Catholic Bible. It is because Joseph Smith said God was once a man and made of flesh and bone.

Joseph Smith taught the Christian belief that the Father was spirit until 1843.
John 3:

18*“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

D&C130:3:

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

*The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

In 1843, Joseph Smith rejects the Christian God and the clear meaning of the Bible.

“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
— John 4:24

“A spirit does not have flesh and bones”
— Luke 24:39

God is born a human, Christ is born a human; therefore, for Mormons, there is nothing truly unique about Christmas.

 

[gazelam]

I think you know what a Catholic’s answer to this question would be. Not accepting our definition and understanding of the Holy Trinity puts you in a position of not comprehending the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Do Catholics comprehend the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Can mysteries be comprehended?

CCC 234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life.

 

[HojaVerde]

Do Catholics comprehend the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Can mysteries be comprehended?

CCC 234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life.

Do human beings comprehend infinity?

Let’s see… We can understand the formulation of the Trinity, as we can understand the concept of infinity. But that doesn’t imply we can put the Trinity inside our minds, as we cannot put infinity inside our minds. This is only an analogy.

So, we can explain the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, because this inner life of God has been revealed to us by our Lord Jesus Christ. But we cannot fully grasp or imagine the whole thing of God or the inner life of God, as we cannot fully grasp infinity. That is a mistery.

Just my two cents.

 

[HojaVerde]

And I would add something more:

If somebody can fully understand, comprehend, grasp God, then, that is not God.

 

[in_servitude]

I have been contemplating the conversation on this thread these past few days, and I have more questions for those that understand the LDS faith.

1. Why would LDS people refer to December 25th as “Christmas”? As I understand it, the word means “Christ Mass” - something that comes from a faith tradition that believes in a liturgical form of worship where there is the consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
2. How can the word “Emmanuel” make any sense in the LDS faith tradition? As I understand it, the Holy Ghost cannot be born because if it did, it would not be possible for that being to interact with us spiritually. If this is incorrect, I’d like to understand that. Since Jesus is a human, then there is no way for him to live out the “Emmanuel” promise the way a Catholic experiences Christ in a very intimate way. The name “Emmanuel” means “Christ is with us.” I think that the human nature of Christ as understood by the LDS would limit the understanding of Emmanuel.
3. Catholics observe Christmas, in part, in an effort to live - today - the reality of Christ coming into our lives in a whole new way. It does recall Christ’s birth that took place some 2000 years ago, but it is not just that. It is about Christ coming into our lives today. That is why we have Advent - to prepare our hearts for Christ to enter anew. Is this a difference between the LDS Christmas experience and the Catholic Christmas experience?

 

[Horton]

I have been contemplating the conversation on this thread these past few days, and I have more questions for those that understand the LDS faith.

1. Why would LDS people refer to December 25th as “Christmas”? As I understand it, the word means “Christ Mass” - something that comes from a faith tradition that believes in a liturgical form of worship where there is the consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
2. How can the word “Emmanuel” make any sense in the LDS faith tradition? As I understand it, the Holy Ghost cannot be born because if it did, it would not be possible for that being to interact with us spiritually. If this is incorrect, I’d like to understand that. Since Jesus is a human, then there is no way for him to live out the “Emmanuel” promise the way a Catholic experiences Christ in a very intimate way. The name “Emmanuel” means “Christ is with us.” I think that the human nature of Christ as understood by the LDS would limit the understanding of Emmanuel.
3. Catholics observe Christmas, in part, in an effort to live - today - the reality of Christ coming into our lives in a whole new way. It does recall Christ’s birth that took place some 2000 years ago, but it is not just that. It is about Christ coming into our lives today. That is why we have Advent - to prepare our hearts for Christ to enter anew. Is this a difference between the LDS Christmas experience and the Catholic Christmas experience?

I have the same questions. Many of the LDS believe the birth of Jesus occurred on April 6th, 1,830 years before the founding of the LDS. If this their belief then December 25th is just another secularized holiday.

Hopefully someone will clarify this.

 

[gazelam]

I have been contemplating the conversation on this thread these past few days, and I have more questions for those that understand the LDS faith.

Good questions! I’ll take a crack at them.

1. Why would LDS people refer to December 25th as “Christmas”? As I understand it, the word means “Christ Mass” - something that comes from a faith tradition that believes in a liturgical form of worship where there is the consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

English-speaking LDS refer to December 25th as “Christmas” because that’s the name generally given to the day set aside to celebrate Christ’s birth. In the USA it is a designated legal holiday for the entire Federal Government, not just for those that believe in a liturgical form of worship where there is the consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

However, in most languages December 25th is not referred to as “Mass of Christ”. In Spanish it’s “Navidad”, not “Misa de Cristo”. This article explains that very few languages reference Christ in their word for “Christmas”: theweek.com/articles/594123/almost-every-language-word-christmas-few-reference-christ

LDS are grateful to have a day to celebrate Christ’s birth, regardless of the language.

1. How can the word “Emmanuel” make any sense in the LDS faith tradition? As I understand it, the Holy Ghost cannot be born because if it did, it would not be possible for that being to interact with us spiritually. If this is incorrect, I’d like to understand that. Since Jesus is a human, then there is no way for him to live out the “Emmanuel” promise the way a Catholic experiences Christ in a very intimate way. The name “Emmanuel” means “Christ is with us.” I think that the human nature of Christ as understood by the LDS would limit the understanding of Emmanuel.

LDS do not believe that Christ is the embodiment of the Holy Ghost. Jesus has a spirit just like we all do and He received a body at birth just like we all do. Jesus lived with God before He was born just like we all did. LDS believe that when Jesus was on the Earth it was “God (the Son) with us”. What is the “Emmanuel promise”?

1. Catholics observe Christmas, in part, in an effort to live - today - the reality of Christ coming into our lives in a whole new way. It does recall Christ’s birth that took place some 2000 years ago, but it is not just that. It is about Christ coming into our lives today. That is why we have Advent - to prepare our hearts for Christ to enter anew. Is this a difference between the LDS Christmas experience and the Catholic Christmas experience?

LDS don’t have a formal liturgical calendar like other faiths do. LDS formally remember Christ via ordinance each week in a meeting called “Sacrament Meeting”, where LDS formally partake of the sacrament (known in other faiths as communion). Prior to partaking of the sacrament, LDS are encouraged to examine their lives and repent of any sins. LDS are commanded to remember Christ always.

I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

I have the same questions. Many of the LDS believe the birth of Jesus occurred on April 6th, 1,830 years before the founding of the LDS. If this their belief then December 25th is just another secularized holiday.

Hopefully someone will clarify this.

Here is the link from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on April 6: eom.byu.edu/index.php/April_6

I hope this helps…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Good
However, in most languages December 25th is not referred to as “Mass of Christ”. In Spanish it’s “Navidad”, not “Misa de Cristo”. This article explains that very few languages reference Christ in their word for “Christmas”: theweek.com/articles/594123/almost-every-language-word-christmas-few-reference-christ

Gosh, what an odd thing to say, that Christ is not referenced. Of course he is.

On the liturgical calendar, December 25 is the “The Nativity of the Lord”. Feliz Navidad means happy nativity. Noël Is descended from the Latin for birth, which is referencing the nativity. Joyous birth! Weihnachten Means holy night. Jul is referencing the entire Christmas season from Christmas to Epiphany. Etc. In all languages, the birth of Christ is referenced. There is no other feast on the Christian liturgical calendar, on December 25th, than the one that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. The greetings in every language are referencing this event and the celebration of it.

Christ is born
He really is born.

 

[gazelam]

Gosh, what an odd thing to say, that Christ is not referenced. Of course he is.

On the liturgical calendar, December 25 is the “The Nativity of the Lord”. Feliz Navidad means happy nativity. Noël Is descended from the Latin for birth, which is referencing the nativity. Joyous birth! Weihnachten Means holy night. Jul is referencing the entire Christmas season from Christmas to Epiphany. Etc. In all languages, the birth of Christ is referenced. There is no other feast on the Christian liturgical calendar, on December 25th, than the one that celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. The greetings in every language are referencing this event and the celebration of it.

Christ is born
He really is born.

So I’m not an English major!

reference definition - the action of mentioning or alluding to something

So Christ is not mentioned in many languages, but is alluded to. There is a definite inference.

Navidad = Christmas
Natividad = nativity

I wish you Feliz Navidad: youtube.com/watch?v=xMtuVP8Mj4o Enjoy!

 

[RebeccaJ]

So I’m not an English major!

reference definition - the action of mentioning or alluding to something

So Christ is not mentioned in many languages, but is alluded to. There is a definite inference.

Navidad = Christmas
Natividad = nativity

I wish you Feliz Navidad: youtube.com/watch?v=xMtuVP8Mj4o Enjoy!

G, its’s Christmas. The secular idea of Christmas, sans Christ, post dates every Christmas greeting in every language by hundreds of years! Of course every Christmas greeting is about Christ, as Christmas is.

Merry Christmas to you as well.

 

[in_servitude]

English-speaking LDS refer to December 25th as “Christmas” because that’s the name generally given to the day set aside to celebrate Christ’s birth. In the USA it is a designated legal holiday for the entire Federal Government, not just for those that believe in a liturgical form of worship where there is the consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

Would you say that the meaning of the words are irrelevant? Is it unfortunate for the LDS faithful that they are using a name that honors the Catholic (and other denominations that also celebrate) Mass? Or, is the overriding principle for the LDS to use the secular words?

However, in most languages December 25th is not referred to as “Mass of Christ”. In Spanish it’s “Navidad”, not “Misa de Cristo”. This article explains that very few languages reference Christ in their word for “Christmas”: theweek.com/articles/594123/almost-every-language-word-christmas-few-reference-christ

LDS are grateful to have a day to celebrate Christ’s birth, regardless of the language.

Okay, here you are saying that the LDS faithful DO have an official celebration of Christmas. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

LDS do not believe that Christ is the embodiment of the Holy Ghost. Jesus has a spirit just like we all do and He received a body at birth just like we all do. Jesus lived with God before He was born just like we all did. LDS believe that when Jesus was on the Earth it was “God (the Son) with us”. What is the “Emmanuel promise”?

Okay, that is very interesting. For the LDS then, there is no way to experience Christ other than to recall an historical event. I did not know this. Emmanuel means “Christ is with us.” I understand that very differently (like the way I received him today at mass - Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - very intimate union with Christ I am humbled to celebrate). For the LDS, Christ is a distant memory or a historical figure. That is how I am seeing what you are saying. I did not know this about the LDS faith.

By the way, I’m not aware of any religion that views Christ as the embodiment of the Holy Ghost. Maybe there are religions that teach the modal heresy.

LDS don’t have a formal liturgical calendar like other faiths do. LDS formally remember Christ via ordinance each week in a meeting called “Sacrament Meeting”, where LDS formally partake of the sacrament (known in other faiths as communion). Prior to partaking of the sacrament, LDS are encouraged to examine their lives and repent of any sins. LDS are commanded to remember Christ always.

This is confusing to me. On the one hand, there are no special dates for the LDS since there is no calendar. But, then you are saying that the LDS DO officially celebrate Christmas. Is Christmas an official LDS celebration or not? If there is no “liturgical calendar”, then I don’t understand how you could celebrate it. But, if Dec. 25 is an official celebration by the LDS, then that is a calendar, even if it is just the one date.

I get the feeling that there is a dividing line between the secular and the LDS faith practice. And, it seems like the LDS celebration of Christmas must be strictly secular.

Maybe this will help me understand: Will you be at church this coming Sunday? If so, will there be anything specific to Christmas in your worship?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe this will help me understand: Will you be at church this coming Sunday? If so, will there be anything specific to Christmas in your worship?

My LDS family will be at church this Sunday because it is Sunday. When Christmas is not on Sunday they don’t have Christmas church services.

Because they traditionally have a family get together for Christmas breakfast, I always go to Mass for the Christmas Vigil. Funny thing this year, the family get together will be a brunch because the Mormons have church to go to this year.

 

[gazelam]

Would you say that the meaning of the words are irrelevant?

I think I understand where you’re coming from. When LDS wish others “Merry Christmas” there are referring to the celebration of the birth of Jesus. If the local custom were to wish others “Happy Nativity” in place of “Merry Christmas”, LDS would be doing that instead. I guess the words are irrelevant up to a point.

Is it unfortunate for the LDS faithful that they are using a name that honors the Catholic (and other denominations that also celebrate) Mass?

It’s not part of our orientation to be continually thinking that the term “Christmas” originated from “Mass of Christ”. Those who are aware would probably see it as more of a historical fact.

Or, is the overriding principle for the LDS to use the secular words?

Not sure I understand exactly what’s being asked, but LDS to not have a formal doctrine to accept or reject names of Christian events that we also embrace.

Okay, here you are saying that the LDS faithful DO have an official celebration of Christmas. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

There is nothing equivalent to Catholic High Holy days of Obligation in the LDS faith. Is not Christmas a day in which Catholics are required to attend Mass? LDS embrace the Christmas season because that’s when everyone else is celebrating Christ’s birth. LDS Sunday services traditionally have Christmas themes in December. And the Sunday service closest to Christmas usually consists of a musical celebration of Christ’s birth. However, there are no formal LDS services held on Christmas when Christmas does not fall on a Sunday. Does that help?

Okay, that is very interesting. For the LDS then, there is no way to experience Christ other than to recall an historical event. I did not know this. Emmanuel means “Christ is with us.” I understand that very differently (like the way I received him today at mass - Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity - very intimate union with Christ I am humbled to celebrate). For the LDS, Christ is a distant memory or a historical figure. That is how I am seeing what you are saying. I did not know this about the LDS faith.

As I’m sure you know the New Testament teaches us that Jesus sends the Holy Ghost to be with us while He’s away. We also believe that does occasionally appear to our leaders from time to time to give them guidance. This article describes one of those times: lds.org/friend/1993/08/lorenzo-snow-and-the-sacred-vision?lang=eng

By the way, I’m not aware of any religion that views Christ as the embodiment of the Holy Ghost. Maybe there are religions that teach the modal heresy.

OK

This is confusing to me. On the one hand, there are no special dates for the LDS since there is no calendar. But, then you are saying that the LDS DO officially celebrate Christmas. Is Christmas an official LDS celebration or not? If there is no “liturgical calendar”, then I don’t understand how you could celebrate it. But, if Dec. 25 is an official celebration by the LDS, then that is a calendar, even if it is just the one date.

Per my previous response, there it nothing equivalent to Catholic High Holy days of Obligation so I’ll say there is no equivalent to a Catholic Mass on Christmas Day.

I get the feeling that there is a dividing line between the secular and the LDS faith practice. And, it seems like the LDS celebration of Christmas must be strictly secular.

A suggestion to a LDS that his celebration of Christmas is secular would result in a confused look on his face. I think secular is the wrong word describing the LDS approach since it denotes “attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis”. We most definitely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and died for our sins. Not sure which word best describes what distinguishes the two approaches.

Maybe this will help me understand: Will you be at church this coming Sunday? If so, will there be anything specific to Christmas in your worship?

I will be coming to church this Sunday and Christmas hymns will be sung and talks with be given about Jesus. However, next year when Christmas falls on Monday I will not be attending church on Christmas. I will have attended the day before another service where Christmas hymns will be sung and talks with be given about Jesus.

I hope this helps…

 

[RebeccaJ]

G, Christmas is not a holy day of obligation. But if you go to Mass on Christmas Eve, it will be standing room only. People have a desire to worship Christ on the day His birth is celebrated. And for some people it is their family tradition to go to Mass together. And for others they are visitors, who are curious about how Catholics celebrate Christmas.

 

[gazelam]

G, Christmas is not a holy day of obligation. But if you go to Mass on Christmas Eve, it will be standing room only. People have a desire to worship Christ on the day His birth is celebrated. And for some people it is their family tradition to go to Mass together. And for others they are visitors, who are curious about how Catholics celebrate Christmas.

My apologies for any mistakes about Catholicism from me. I just assumed that sites such as this one were correct, but I may be mistaken. catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/what-are-the-holy-days-of-obligation

Anyway, Merry Christmas to you!!