Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah?

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**patrick457
LilyM
Zooey
and anyone else that agrees with them . . .

The ridiculous comparisons you all have made regarding the christmas tree fails this simple test:

"Which of these pagan items do you focus on to celebrate the birth of Christ?

Or which of these is ‘Christianized’ and brought into your weekly worship of, or your daily devotion to Christ, as you do with the pagan forms and traditions of Xmas?"

The origin and meaning of a custom, tradition, or form does not take on significance unless it is somehow specifically incorporated into, or lined up with, one’s worship.

Rings, clothing customs, etc. would be merely the byproducts of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions. **
 
Here’s the last parody of mine:

EVERY (Christmas) TREE IS EVIL

There are Greeks in the world,
there are Assyrians
There are Romans and Barbarians, and then
There are those that follow Apollo,
I’ve never been one of them
I’m a normal Christian
And have been since I was baptized,

And the one thing they say about Christians is:
They shouldn’t take things from Pagans
You’ll have to remove your six-foot trees
You’ll have to burn your holiday wreaths
You’ll have to banish Santa Claus
For they are symbols from the heathen

And so…

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Let the Heathens build theirs
on the snowy ground
God shall make them pay
for each Tree that can be found.

Christmas Trees are Pagan
Every bush is bad
Every Tree should be taken
from your neighborhood.

Romans, Greeks, and Britons
erect theirs just everywhere
But God loves who handle
these trees with more care.

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Christmas Trees are evil
Holiday shrubs are bad
Every tree should be removed
from your neighborhood.

Every tree is useless
Every wreaths are bad
God hates everybody’s
Mine!
And mine!
And mine!

Let the Pagans builds theirs
Over mountain, hill and plain
God shall strike them down
for each tree that’s built in vain.

Every Tree is evil
Every shrubs are bad
Every Tree should be taken
from your neighborhood.

Christmas Trees are pagan
Holiday Wreaths are bad
If a tree’s decorated
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
 
tabcom said:
’Sounds like to me". Thank you for the admission that you really don’t know what you are talking about.
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Tsk, tsk!! Pardon me while I go mark TC’s report card:
“Does not play well with others”.

There! Now, what were we talking about? Oh, that’s right! I remember!!

[SIGN]:DThere are those who :yup: know what they are talking about, & then there are those who :nope: cannot see the forest, because they are:whistle: so obsessed with the [Christmas] trees!![/SIGN]
 
patrick457 said:
Here’s the last parody of mine:

EVERY (Christmas) TREE IS EVIL

There are Greeks in the world,
there are Assyrians
There are Romans and Barbarians, and then
There are those that follow Apollo,
I’ve never been one of them
I’m a normal Christian
And have been since I was baptized,

And the one thing they say about Christians is:
They shouldn’t take things from Pagans
You’ll have to remove your six-foot trees
You’ll have to burn your holiday wreaths
You’ll have to banish Santa Claus
For they are symbols from the heathen

And so…

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Let the Heathens build theirs
on the snowy ground
God shall make them pay
for each Tree that can be found.

Christmas Trees are Pagan
Every bush is bad
Every Tree should be taken
from your neighborhood.

Romans, Greeks, and Britons
erect theirs just everywhere
But God loves who handle
these trees with more care.

Every tree is evil
Every shrub is bad
If a tree is decorated
God gets quite irate.

Christmas Trees are evil
Holiday shrubs are bad
Every tree should be removed
from your neighborhood.

Every tree is useless
Every wreaths are bad
God hates everybody’s
Mine!
And mine!
And mine!

Let the Pagans builds theirs
Over mountain, hill and plain
God shall strike them down
for each tree that’s built in vain.

Every Tree is evil
Every shrubs are bad
Every Tree should be taken
from your neighborhood.

Christmas Trees are pagan
Holiday Wreaths are bad
If a tree’s decorated
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
Click to expand...
http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/4.g...ng/4.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/clapping/4.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/22.gifht...m/lol/22.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/lol/22.gif

**[sign]**Hmmmm…Patrick’s report card: AA++++ “I have never had the delight of such a fine student. Furthermore, his sense of humor is a blessing to all in the class…even those who have little or no appreciation for it!”****[/sign]​
 
tabcom said:
Rings, clothing customs, etc. would be merely the byproducts of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions.
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What about the Bible, then? Since we use the Bible in every Christian service of worship (which is several times a day in the Catholic Church) - but writing was invented by the Sumerians (who were pagans), and the first people to become generally literate were the Egyptians (who not only were pagans, but also enemies of the People of God) - and we know that Moses, who was the first person to write down the stories of Genesis, had been taught how to read and write in Egypt. So, on the same basis of why the Christmas tree is evil, shouldn’t the Bible be considered evil, too? Since it comes forth directly from the pagan tradition of record-keeping and writing down history. 😉
 
jmcrae said:
What about the Bible, then? Since we use the Bible in every Christian service of worship (which is several times a day in the Catholic Church) - but writing was invented by the Sumerians (who were pagans), and the first people to become generally literate were the Egyptians (who not only were pagans, but also enemies of the People of God) - and we know that Moses, who was the first person to write down the stories of Genesis, had been taught how to read and write in Egypt. So, on the same basis of why the Christmas tree is evil, shouldn’t the Bible be considered evil, too? Since it comes forth directly from the pagan tradition of record-keeping and writing down history. 😉
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God’s word points us to the book of Jasher at least twice. 2 Samuel 1:18 and Joshua 10:13 (the Hebrew book of record)
So you can see, writing down the events, or checking the history books isn’t wrong.
I never claimed the Christmas tree was evil, I pointed out that the Lord calls it a heathen tradition. The key phrase for me in Jeremiah 10:1-5 is “dismayed at the signs in the heavens”, dismayed means “anticipate with anxiety, dread”. They knew winter solstice was coming, but didn’t fully understand it. What other heathen tradition, that takes a tree from the forest and decorates it at the time of winter solstice, is there? I would suggest that someone who sincerely wants to know, pray about it.
 
fatherx said:
I never claimed the Christmas tree was evil, I pointed out that the Lord calls it a heathen tradition.
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No - the Lord calls the custom of carving and decorating wooden idols a heathen custom.

You are mistaking the decorated wooden idol for a Christmas tree - probably because in our culture we have no experience of such things, and the word “decorated” got you thinking about Christmas, and you made the mistake of thinking that the people in the Bible lived in a culture like ours.

Jeremiah never heard of Christmas trees, and God was not telling Jeremiah anything at all about Christmas trees. Jeremiah’s word from the Lord was for his own people, in his own time, and had to do with the carving and decorating of wooden idols -which is still forbidden of course, and has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of Christian celebrations.

Christmas trees are part of a Christian tradition that began during the late 1500s in Germany. The Bible does not contain even one word at all in it about Christmas trees - the sacred writers died many centuries before such an idea had ever even been thought of. One might as well lift out a passage of Scripture and claim that it has something to do with computers, or automobiles, or space ships - it makes just as little sense.
 
tabcom said:
**patrick457
LilyM
Zooey
and anyone else that agrees with them . . .

The ridiculous comparisons you all have made regarding the christmas tree fails this simple test:

"Which of these pagan items do you focus on to celebrate the birth of Christ?

Or which of these is ‘Christianized’ and brought into your weekly worship of, or your daily devotion to Christ, as you do with the pagan forms and traditions of Xmas?"

The origin and meaning of a custom, tradition, or form does not take on significance unless it is somehow specifically incorporated into, or lined up with, one’s worship.

Rings, clothing customs, etc. would be merely the byproducts of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions. **
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Well what makes these things byproducts? One could similarly say that the idea of a decorated (rather than carved into a figure) tree is in itself a BYPRODUCT of paganism - that’s if pagans did actually cut down trees to worship them, which I highly doubt. I believe they worshipped living trees rather than dead ones. In fact St Boniface instituted a massive campaign of ***chopping down ***sacred trees to convert heathen Germans, as Julius Caesar had done hundreds of years earlier for the Gauls, which supports my view rather than yours.

In any event it’s clearly the intent to worship the tree, either in itself or in connotation with a false god, that would make it pagan. Rather like incense - it’s the idea of offering it to false gods rather than the one true God that makes the difference.

Since we do not worship the tree in itself, and all our connotations with it (stars, everlasting life, gifts etc) are linked to Christian worship, then why do you still have problems with Christmas trees?
 
LilyM said:
Since we do not worship the tree in itself, and all our connotations with it (stars, everlasting life, gifts etc) are linked to Christian worship, then why do you still have problems with Christmas trees?
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**
The Christianization of pagan customs, symbols, and terminology were done inorder so that pagan Rome could “convert” without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity.

“‘A compound religion had been manufactured, of which … Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.’ The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity” (W.E. Vine).

nomenclature:
  1. a set or system of names or terms, as those used in a particular science or art, by an individual or community, etc.
  2. the names or terms comprising a set or system.
**
 
That is bunk!

The winter solstice is not even on the same day as Christmas and the fact is that history records that the early church often celebrated it’s feast near pagan days to keep from arousing suspicion since they were still under grave persecution at that time.

The Christmas tree has so little similarity to the Pagan rituals as to be a laughable comparison except that some people choose to attempt to use it to disparage the Catholic faith or the feast of the Nativity.

This is just one more reason to reject the n-C doctrine of Sola Scriptura since it is only by this loosest of fundamentalist interpretations that one can try to propound this fallacy.

It (again) makes it clear that the Catholic Church is correct in it’s literal interpretation of the Word of God versus the “literalist” interpretation of most n-Cs.

More here:
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Mr. Tabcom,
So what if the Vatican lighted their Christmas Tree on December 20th? Do all Catholics light theirs on that date? Does the day which the Tree waslightedmean anything? What about the people who set up and light their trees before/after that date?
 
tabcom said:
**The Christianization of pagan customs, symbols, and terminology were done inorder so that pagan Rome could “convert” without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. **

**"‘A compound religion had been manufactured, of which … Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.’ The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). **

nomenclature:
1. a set or system of names or terms, as those used in a particular science or art, by an individual or community, etc.
2. the names or terms comprising a set or system.
Click to expand...
    • There are certainly pre-Christian Roman influences on Christianity: they include things like the custom of throwing confetti at weddings, which is derived from throwing roses (associated with Venus) at weddings.
What they don’t affect is (say) doctrine, or the calendar, or places of worship. Had Vine meant that the Blessed Trinity is a form of the Capitoline Triad, he would have been wrong, but he would at least have been giving an example of what he meant; because his comments are so vague, it is next to impossible to comment on what he objects to. ++
 
Church_Militant said:
The solstice fell on the 21st-22nd. Get your facts straight!
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**Because the lighting of the Christmas tree in Saint Peter’s Square was done hours before the calendar rolled over to 12/21, there is no conection whatsoever with the tree and the winter solstice, which is the ancient festival of the Saturnalia.
:whacky:

Saturnalia is the feast at which the Romans commemorated the dedication of the temple of the god Saturn, which took place on 17 December. Over the years, it expanded to a whole week, up to 23 December.

**
 
tabcom said:
Because the lighting of the Christmas tree in Saint Peter’s Square was done hours before the calendar rolled over to 12/21, there is no conection whatsoever with the tree and the winter solstice, which is the ancient festival of the Saturnalia.
:whacky:
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The Solstice fell on the 22, this year. I don’t think they commemorated the Solstice with Christmas trees back in the day, anyways.
Saturnalia is the feast at which the Romans commemorated the dedication of the temple of the god Saturn, which took place on 17 December. Over the years, it expanded to a whole week, up to 23 December.
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That’s interesting - but if it doesn’t have anything to do with celebrating Christ’s birth, then it has nothing to do with Christmas.

Unless you’re saying that Saturn is really Jesus? :rolleyes:
 
Are we still on this subject. Good Grief!

As it turns out my daughters boyfriend came to our home on Christmas morning, with his little girl, and we opened presents under the tree! How about that? He didn’t grow horns on his head and neither did his daughter. My husband made pancakes (our traditional breakfast) and we had a lovely morning. He was so dead set against his daughter opening presents under a pagan tree…until he realized that we didn’t “worship” the tree. He’ll come around, I’m sure. I believe all he wanted was some resemblance of “family”, which was sorely lacking when he was growing up and got his head turned around. And I don’t believe he wants his daughter ostracized for the rest of her school years.
 
tabcom said:
**
The Christianization of pagan customs, symbols, and terminology were done inorder so that pagan Rome could “convert” without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity.

“‘A compound religion had been manufactured, of which … Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.’ The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity” (W.E. Vine).

nomenclature:
  1. a set or system of names or terms, as those used in a particular science or art, by an individual or community, etc.
  2. the names or terms comprising a set or system.
**
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Interesting but still doesn’t answer my other points from post 108. You seem to have no objection to what you call byproducts of pagan worship (wedding rings etc). How are Christmas Trees not also byproducts of paganism, given that their significance now is so very different to what it was for the pagans?

And where is your evidence that pagans actually did follow the custom of cutting down and decorating trees at the Winter Solstice? The only references I can find are those which I mentioned in post 108 - where trees were cut down to STOP the pagans worshipping them, as they ONLY worshipped living growing trees.
 
LilyM said:
You seem to have no objection to what you call byproducts of pagan worship (wedding rings etc). How are Christmas Trees not also byproducts of paganism . . .?
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**The tree, or grove, or asteroth are byproducts of paganism. The difference is that no catholic bishop has christianized wedding rings (or any other nonsense item that has been suggested in this thread) and dedicated a feast day to it. Unlike the christmas festival and all the paraphernalia that has pagan origins associated with it. **
 
tabcom said:
**
The Christianization of pagan customs, symbols, and terminology were done inorder so that pagan Rome could “convert” without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity.

“‘A compound religion had been manufactured, of which … Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.’ The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity” (W.E. Vine). **
Click to expand...
Not that old story about the ‘Paganization’ of Christianity again…and the Catholic Church being born from this unholy ‘assimilation’. :rolleyes:

I guess it happened somewhere near Constantine’s time, right?

Christmas falls near the date of a pagan festival, yes, but does that mean that Christmas came from that festival?

Jesus’ birthday was not always celebrated on December 25, so it’s hardly a continuation of Saturnalia, Sol Invictus or any other festival.

Just found an article that has a refutation of your arguments about the Tree being evil…
cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/christmas.htm
 
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