Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah?

[jmcrae]

**The tree, or grove, or asteroth are byproducts of paganism. The difference is that no catholic bishop has christianized wedding rings (or any other nonsense item that has been suggested in this thread) and dedicated a feast day to it. Unlike the christmas festival and all the paraphernalia that has pagan origins associated with it. **

You’ve completely missed the point. Christmas is not about the Christmas tree: it’s about the Birth of Jesus. Christmas trees are used as a teaching aid to help teach about the birth of Jesus. We don’t worship the tree, though - we worship Jesus.

 

[patrick457]

I’ll try to summarize the above article here:

1. The word Workman in Jeremiah 10 doesn’t mean the same as ‘Lumberjack’. The Hebrew word used here, Charash, means ‘Carpenter’ or ‘Craftsman’. Of course, Lumberjacks cut trees, while Craftsmen carve wood. Thus, Jer. 10:3 speaks of Carpenters making idols. If you’ll look later on the passage, the workman is said to plate an idol with ‘gold and silver’, hardly a lumberjack’s field of work!

The point here is that ‘workman’ doesn’t mean lumberjack, but craftsman; Just as other passages which use the word show:

Isaiah 40:19-20: “Hath the workman cast a graven statue? or hath the goldsmith formed it with gold, or the silversmith with plates of silver? He hath chosen strong wood, and that will not rot: the skilful workman seeketh how he may set up an idol that may not be moved”

Hosea 8:6: “A workman made it, and it is no god [but an idol].”

1. The workman is said to wield an Ax. This ‘Ax’ is different from our modern definition of ax. In Hebrew, the word for ‘ax’ is garzen, which is the word for the tool we now call an ax (Deut. 19:5). However, the word used by the passage in Jeremiah was maatsad, which was rendered in other Bible Translations as a ‘Cutting Tool’, ‘Adze’, ‘Chisel’, and ‘blade’.

The point here is that the ‘ax’ in this passage is not the same as our modern definition of the word, but rather a cutting tool similar to a chisel.

1. Verse 5 says, They are framed after the likeness of a palm tree. . . .. Anyone with common sense will know that this doesn’t refer to Christmas Trees, since Christmas Trees are Conifers like Pine Trees, Evergreens etc. Hardly like a Palm Tree at that.
2. To quote from Ralph Woodrow’s Christmas Reconsidered:

“Jeremiah spoke against worshipping an idol made from a tree, not the tree itself. Though the workman could make the idol look like a living, walking, talking being, yet it was lifeless. …] If Jeremiah was speaking of a Christmas tree–no one expects a Christmas tree to talk! These idols apparently had legs, yet could not walk. They must be carried, ‘because they cannot go’ (Jer. 10:5). Had Jeremiah been speaking of a Christmas tree, his whole argument would break down: everyone realizes that a Christmas tree must be carried–no one supposes a Christmas tree should walk” (Christmas Reconsidered, 47-48).

1. Verse 9 describes the idols being “violet and purple.” Again, obviously not referring to Christmas Trees, or any other tree, but the idols carved out of the wood from the trees in the forest. They were made to look like men, clothed, with feet, eyes, mouths, and hands, yet they couldn’t speak, see, hear walk, or talk.

It is obvious that people doesn’t worship Christmas Trees. for example, after the Christmas season,many people just throw or dispose or hide their trees, not something people would do with an idol or an object of worship.

Again, to quote from Mr. Woodrow:

The Christmas tree, as we know it, only dates back a few centuries [so much for the pagan connection!–M.D.]. In those earlier times, trees were decorated with fruit, which some considered symbolic of fruit on the tree of life (Rev. 22:2). Today’s round Christmas tree balls are simply stylized fruit. For some, anything round is a pagan symbol. But who made fruit round, who made the manna round, who made the moon round, who made the sun round, who made the earth round? Round is not wrong. The statement of Jeremiah, “the customs of the people are vain” (Jer. 10:3), must be understood within the context of the horrible and abominable customs that were practiced at that time. Not all “customs” are evil (Judges 11:39; Lk. 4:16). Neither are all “traditions” wrong (2 Thess. 2:15).

[Christmas Reconsidered, 50]

I shall close this post with a quote from Isaiah 60:13: *"The glory of Libanus shall come to thee, the fir tree, and the box tree, and the **pine tree *together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary: and I will glorify the place of my feet."

 

[LilyM]

**The tree, or grove, or asteroth are byproducts of paganism. The difference is that no catholic bishop has christianized wedding rings (or any other nonsense item that has been suggested in this thread) and dedicated a feast day to it. Unlike the christmas festival and all the paraphernalia that has pagan origins associated with it. **

Tab, since when are we celebrating a feast in honour of Christmas Trees? The feast is dedicated to the entirely Christian concept of the BIRTH OF CHRIST. It isn’t like the feast is dedicated to Christmas trees, or in their honour

People can choose or not to celebrate the Feast of the Birth of Christ with a decorated tree, presents etc. None of which are required. None of which are sinful if indulged in, either.

And yes, there are plenty and obvious parallels between Christmas and marriage which you are missing.

The whole concept and custom of marriage, along with subordinate traditions (rings, veils, bridesmaids etc) existed before Christian times. These are indeed pagan traditions which have been christianised. Again, the couple can choose to have or not to have rings, bridesmaids etc. None of them is required for it to be a valid marriage. None of them, if indulged in, are sinful either, even though they originated as pagan customs.

And marriages are indeed celebrated as a feast. The day on which each couple solemnises their marriage is indeed the feast of that marriage, and the anniversary of the occasion is celebrated by that couple and their family and friends every year afterwards.

Sounds an awful lot like Christmas and Christmas Trees to me. The only difference is that marriage happens on a different date for each couple. Whereas the birth of Christ occured once, and on one date, only. Which people have celebrated across nations and time ever since.

 

[LilyM]

**patrick457
LilyM
Zooey
and anyone else that agrees with them . . .

The ridiculous comparisons you all have made regarding the christmas tree fails this simple test:

"Which of these pagan items do you focus on to celebrate the birth of Christ?

Or which of these is ‘Christianized’ and brought into your weekly worship of, or your daily devotion to Christ, as you do with the pagan forms and traditions of Xmas?"

The origin and meaning of a custom, tradition, or form does not take on significance unless it is somehow specifically incorporated into, or lined up with, one’s worship.

Rings, clothing customs, etc. would be merely the byproducts of paganism, not paganism itself, and they have developed no religious connotations or associations of their own, as have the Xmas customs and traditions. **

Sorry, had to respond to one part of this post, since I only just reread it.

“WEEKLY worship”?? and “DAILY devotion?” Are you suggesting that we have Christmas trees in our churches or homes every day and week of the year???

You are seriously and deeply confused if you think this, tabcom.

 

[Church_Militant]

THE PAGANIZATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNDER CONSTANTINE

The Historic Facts:

Is it true that Constantine was a pagan and used his influence to corrupt the Catholic Church?

Raise Up A Child…
Constantine was raised with Christian beliefs by his mother St. Helena although he delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed. It seems clear that he had enough faith to seek salvation in Christ, knowing that he was facing eternity and his soul was in the balance

Your Young Men Will See Visions…
After seeing a vision in which he was told that he would conquer under the sign of the Christian cross, he adopted it as his standard and his entire army carried it into battle against the pagan general Maxentius and he won control of the empire in 312 AD.

Freedom At Last…

The following year Constantine signed the Edict of Milan (sometimes known as the Edict of Tolerance) that officially ended the persecution of the Church. It’s hard to understand how anyone can believe that Constantine, (who died a Christian despite his delay) would have paganized the early Catholic Church.

Julian Doesn’t Keep The Faith.
Forty-eight years later, in 361 AD, the emperor Julian the Apostate launched a persecution of the Church in an attempt to bring back paganism. Why would that have been necessary if Constantine had already corrupted the Catholic Church?

History Tells All
Some careful research and study of the first 300 years of Christianity will reveal that Catholic doctrines such as the Eucharist, Apostolic authority, and the pope as the successor of Peter were believed from the very beginning of Christianity and certainly were not the result of any pagan influence under Constantine.

In Fact
Christianity has been called Catholic in Acts 9:31 (Greek: “ekklesia katholos”) and at least from 107AD when Ignatius, the Bishop of the Church in Antioch, used it in one of his letters to another church which indicates that by that time the original Christian Church was already well known as the Catholic Church in order to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups. Keep in mind that that same church in Antioch was where we were all first called Christians as recorded in Acts 11:26. (The Faith of the Early Fathers, William A. Jurgens, Collegeville, Minn.; Liturgical Press, 1970. p.25, #65)

Get The Facts: Make Your Own Decision

 

[Church_Militant]

**The tree, or grove, or asteroth are byproducts of paganism. The difference is that no catholic bishop has christianized wedding rings (or any other nonsense item that has been suggested in this thread) and dedicated a feast day to it. Unlike the christmas festival and all the paraphernalia that has pagan origins associated with it. **

That’s funny…I don’t know a single soul who worships in a “sacred grove”, worships a tree, and the man is dead wrong… wedding rings have long been “Christianized”.

You have yet to make an even remotely viable connection between asteroth and paganism and Christmas.

Why don’t you give it up and post something worth reading?
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thanks to all who participated in this and all the other discussions on this topic. This thread is now closed.