Christmas tree mentioned in Jeremiah?

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fatherx said:
God’s instruction vs. man’ reasoning. Which will you choose?
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God does not view us as drooling ignoramuses wandering aimlessly. Our God is not an insulting God. He is loving and patient. He gave us the gift of reason so that we use it to discover Him! A Bird of Paradise flower praises God by being beautiful. A human being praises God by logical contemplation of His Word. He’s not a drill sargent, He’s a kind teacher.
 
fatherx said:
Let’s look at this from a different angle. Let’s ignore Jeremiah 10:1-5. Do a web search on “Christmas tree origin”. You will find many, many web pages that spell out the heathen / pagan tradition of today’s Christmas tree. This can not be argued, the world agrees about it’s origin.
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I’ve seen many of those web pages - & many of them are not exactly well-informed. One derives Father Christmas from Babylon, along with the very word “baby”. When people write like that, they do little to give the impression that they know what they are talking about. So I take what they say with a very generous dose of salt.​

That’s one issue. As to pagan origin - one must distinguish. Some such things are incompatible with Christian faith in any form - cultic prostitution, for example: one cannot practice cultic prostitution to the greater glory of God.

Some things are not wrong, but are not appropriate for Christians: so we don’t observe the 613 mitsvot in the Law of Moses, but only the 10 commandments. Nor do we have a Temple - we don’t need one, even though the Jews had one, because Christ is our Temple & we are His Temple.

Some things are of non-Jewish & non-Christian origin, yet we do them. Writing, accountancy, hymns, prayers, mathematics, surveying, geography, sacred texts, & many, many more things were either invented by or practiced by the heathen. Yet nobody condemns accountancy for being invented by the Sumerians, or the Senate & Capitol, for being of Roman pre-Christian origin. Nor do people reject hymns, even though the Egyptians & the Sumerians hymned their gods; or sacred writings, which Buddhists have as well as the Jews; or the NT, for quoting Aratus, Cleanthes, Epimenides & Menander: all of whom were pagans.

The Temple of Solomon contained features which would have been familiar to an Assyrian - the brazen sea, for instance. And so on; neither Testament is free of non-Jewish influences, any more than the Aristotelian philosophy of St. Thomas Aquinas is.

IOW, there are non-Jewish & non-Christian influences in the Bible, in the Church’s thinking, in the calendar, in daily life. They are inescapable - & that does not matter. What does matter, is what is made of them. If we are not harmed by the fact that St. Thomas (for example) drew on the wisdom of the Greeks, why is it harmful to have Christmas trees ? They do not affect the Faith - Catholic Aristotelianism OTOH has been vastly influential. Nobody objects to the word euanggelion, even though it is as pre-Christian as logos. Both words, like others, have been Christianised.

And that is the clue. All creation - trees included - is God’s; it exists for Him. False religions have no right to trees - God the Creator does. To abandon trees to other religions, is to say that they cannot be used for His Glory, cannot be redeemed, cannot have a Christian meaning. It is to say that Christ cannot redeem to His use what has been abused by man.
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As for the Scriptures often quoted - we are Christians, not Jews; for Christ has come. So quoting the Torah, or Kings, is no objection to what Christians do; our temptations & idolatries, though real enough, are not the same as those of the Israelites. ##
Now here are a few verses from 1 Kings, where Solomon asks for wisdom from God to rule his people, inquires about getting married to heathen women, God warns him about their heathen customs (remember the story?), and Solomons downfall. Even though Solomon knew the one true God was God, and that the heathen practices of these women were false/wrong, he joined in himself.

1 Kings 3:9-12
9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?

10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.

11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

1 Kings 4:29
29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

1 Kings 11:7-10
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

The world recognizes the tree tradition is a pagan practice, you can understand this and know that God is God, and if you go through the motions of this pagan custom… haven’t you made the same error as Solomon?
(please, no hateful responses, keep it kind-hearted)
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No, I really don’t think so. What I do wonder, is why Christmas trees should be an issue for so many people - even for some Catholics. 🙂​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
  1. The mistake made, is that it is assumed that Jeremiah was predicting - this passage is not a prediction; it is a denunciation. Prophecy is seldom if ever foretelling - it is almost always, or always, forth-telling. That it is not predictive, does not in the least mean that it is not fully a word from God.
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Good point - Jeremiah was not a heathen Oracle sitting with a crystal ball or whatever, making predictions about the future - he knew nothing about Christmas trees, and would not have cared about them, even if he did.

And the Bible is not an I Ching or a Tarot set - we can’t pick and choose verses in isolation, and then interpret them to mean whatever we would like them to mean, or whatever we think the Prophets ought to have meant.
 
Prophet: –noun 1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.

The prophet, Jeremiah is writing this as an instruction from the Lord. Read verse #1 again. This is clearly not Jeremiah giving his opinion, he’s giving us God’s message.
 
fatherx said:
LilyM, Papaspicy, Corvidae, VociMike,
Thanks for the posts, I’ll try to reply do each point.
I believe that King Solomon was ‘going through the motions’ when he broke down and joined his wives in their heathen customs, because Solomon had a very close relationship with God. He was only doing it to please his wives. No question about it, he knew that God was the one true God, and I don’t believe he was worshipping the idols in mind but physically, just to appease the wives. One could argue this but I think a review of 1 Kings would support that.
Verse 5 of chapter ten (Jeremiah) tells us that the heathen tradition (an idol to some) can not walk or speak. This certainly fits the Christmas tree, God seems to be reassuring us that it is a false god and has no power.
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Why would anyone think of worshipping a Christmas tree though - let alone do so ? Christians have done some weird things - but, tree-worship ?​

Images of the gods could not walk either - or walk, or speak (well, not if one is Jeremiah :)). If one adopts a different theology, one that allows for divine images to be in some sense the gods they represent - then, one can see things differently. Their worshippers did
We know it is not a statue or carving of a man-like figure because the Hebrew word used here is “ets”, found as 6086 in a Hebrew-Chaldee dictionary. The primary definition is “a tree in it’s firmness”, and we know what makes a tree firm, it’s roots. Secondly, the way the word is used in the sentance, ‘tree out of the forest’.
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Trees do come from forests, & they are good material for fashioning wooden images - which can in due course become gods.​

Strong’s (the source of that linguistic info) is still useful, but it’s not always reliable. The term “Chaldee” is a give-away - that was what Aramaic used to be called, before it was understood that Chaldea - AKA Mesopotamia - had its own languages. ##
As far the the tree being chosen as a Christmas symbol, God didn’t choose the tree, man did. God’s symbol for Christmas is the Christ child, the Virgin birth. I will celebrate with God’s symbol, can’t go wrong there.
To summarize, even if you’re not convinced that Jeremiah is descibing the Christmas tree, it is still a heathen tradition. (do a search on “Christmas tree origin”) Would Christ participate in a heathen custom?
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He does, by being called “the Anointed” - the anointing of priests & kings is certainly not of Jewish origin; the Sumerians were doing that before 2000 BC.​

The Christmas tree is not very important - which is why it is odd that people make such a fuss over it. Maybe they should complain that “mother of god” was a title of Isis long before Mary came by it. (I forgot - they do complain :)). If Jesus is the “good shepherd”, so were others:
  • The Great Mountain Enlil chose Ur-Namma the good shepherd from the multitude of people
  • I am Šulgi, good shepherd of Sumer.
  • I am Lipit-Eštar, king of the Land. I am the good shepherd of the black-headed. I am the foremost in the foreign countries, and exalted in the Land. I am a human god, the lord of the numerous people. I am the strong heir of kingship. Holding my head high, I am established in my position.
  • You = the god Ninurta] have entrusted the various quarters of heaven and earth, with their settled peoples, to Ur-Ninurta, the youth who is all for you, the good shepherd who is attentive to you.
  • Enlil, great in heaven, surpassing on earth, exceptional and wide-reaching in Sumer, Nunamnir, lord of princes, king of kings! He determined a good destiny in the holy city for me, Išme-Dagan, son of Dagan.
    etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?charen=gcirc&simplesearch=composite
That’s two NT titles for Christ we can’t use 🙂 ##
Can’t find an example where he did, he met with heathens, ate with heathens, but didn’t practice their heathen traditions.
A note on my experience with this. Sometimes I’ve found it awkward to witness to others, unless God’s hand is in it, it can be difficult. But for about five weeks each year, people come to me! They’ll say, “Got your tree up yet?”, and I’ll politely answer “No, we put up a manger instead.” This almost always leads into a conversation about Christ!
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Excellent - & one can easily put up both.​

 
fatherx said:
Prophet: –noun 1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.

The prophet, Jeremiah is writing this as an instruction from the Lord. Read verse #1 again. This is clearly not Jeremiah giving his opinion, he’s giving us God’s message.
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I have read that passage more time than I can count 🙂​

Neither the OP nor I are denying the passage is an instruction from God - what is being denied, is that that particular instruction is a prediction. “Not a prediction” =/= “not a message from God”. Nor does “this passage is a message from God” = “X is the meaning of the message”. Jeremiah 10 includes a prophetic oracle - it does not follow that Jeremiah 10 is talking of Christmas trees, than the Book of Nahum is talking of (IIRC) motor cars. The prophets are not Madam Zaza looking into her crystal ball & saying “cross my palm with silver” - they are specific individuals in specific historical settings, to whom God gave the task of speaking with His authority in & to that setting. To take them out of their settings, is to make certain of misunderstanding them 😦

The definition quoted does not say prophecy and prediction are the same.

FWIW, other gods also had prophets - the goddess Ishtar delivered a number of very consoling oracles to Esarhaddon king of Assyria through the ecstatics who served her. Many gods had prophets who fit the quoted definition perfectly 🙂 The god of Israel had His oracle - so did Apollo; several, in fact: one of them, the oracle of Claros, identifies the god of the Jews with Dionysos.

IOW - having prophets is anything but peculiar to the God of Israel. Israel is special, & so is the Church; notbecause they are totally unlike any other religions in all respects - they are no such thing - but (primarily) because God chose them. It is God Who is special - not the religion; it is special, only because He is. ##
 
omigosh you’re right, probably the Moslems traded with the Indians in the Southwest and named the mesquite tree for one of the pagan idols they remembered from Arabia, and the word mosque derives from one of their pagan temples before they got to be Mohammedans. another reason to stick with propane.

true story: Sister is a goddess-worshipper from way back and is preparing with her comadres for winter solstice celebration so I asked her about the tree thing, they do oak trees, not evergreens, their into the druid thing.
 
Puzzled Annie?
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. Proverbs 15:2
 
From Gottle of Geer
**Excellent - & one can easily put up both. **

Hmmm… put up a manger and a Christmas tree?:eek:

From Ezekiel 22:26
…they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,…

Kinda like pouring raw sewage over your ice cream, yummy.
 
fatherx said:
From Gottle of Geer
**Excellent - & one can easily put up both. **

Hmmm… put up a manger and a Christmas tree?:eek:

From Ezekiel 22:26
…they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,…

Kinda like pouring raw sewage over your ice cream, yummy.
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Has it ever occurred to you, dear fatherx, just how many hundreds of years worth of all our greatest Catholic saints and doctors of the Church would’ve all had and enjoyed Christmas trees, and certainly not repented of the fact?

Of how many of them must have read and meditated over that very same passage of Jeremiah as well? And God still sees fit to allow His church to infallibly canonise these, according to you, heinous idolators and consumers of spiritual sewage.

You understand what canonisation is, fatherx? It’s an infallible declaration that GOD HIMSELF wishes these saints to be set up as rolemodels for us. Why God himself? because he has worked, and continues to work daily, miracles through the intercession of these people who according to you are guilty of such abominations.

More than that, he sees fit to work daily miracles through their intercession and give approval to them to be rolemodels for us.
 
fatherx said:
From Gottle of Geer
**Excellent - & one can easily put up both. **

Hmmm… put up a manger and a Christmas tree?:eek:

From Ezekiel 22:26
…they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean,…

Kinda like pouring raw sewage over your ice cream, yummy.
Click to expand...
Well we put up our Jermiah tree last night and put our manger under it. I can report this AM that we were not struck my lighting, my LOH for Advent did not burst into flames and when I receive Our Lord and Savior in about an hour I doubt the Host will scorch my tongue.

It appears to me that your Christmas does not revolve around Christ as much as it does arguing with other people about your unique insights into the Christmas Tree.
 
fatherx said:
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I believe that King Solomon was ‘going through the motions’ when he broke down and joined his wives in their heathen customs, because Solomon had a very close relationship with God. He was only doing it to please his wives. No question about it, he knew that God was the one true God, and I don’t believe he was worshipping the idols in mind but physically, just to appease the wives. One could argue this but I think a review of 1 Kings would support that.
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I don’t think that Solomon had a very close relationship with God, not as close as his father David anyway. Just because someone knows that God is God does not mean they follow Him, remember the fallen angels? Adam and Eve knew who God was and they chose not to follow. God spoke to Solomon twice, when Solomon asks for wisdom (1 Kings3) and when God warns him about turning away (1 Kings 9).

Deut 17:14-20 gives us 3 specific laws for kings, 1. Don’t amass horses, silver and gold, and wives/concubines. Solomon did all three as is shown in 1Kings 10 & 11. I think its interesting that 1 Kings 10:14 tells us that the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold, it implies that Solomon had fallen away from God before his wives turn his heart to other gods. I think these things dulled his love for God, made him indifferent. What really made God angry was when Solomon actively followed Astarte & Milcom, building them “high places”.

It doesn’t say that Solomon broke down because of his wives nagging him, it just says that his wives turned his heart away after other gods. I don’t believe he was just going through the motions. Why would God get angry if he was just going through the motions?

Again its the intent that we have to look at. Solomon did all three things that he was not supposed to do as king but God wasn’t angry until he fully turned away in his intent, worshipping the other gods.

OK, back to the Christmas tree . . .
 
estesbob said:
Well we put up our Jermiah tree last night and put our manger under it. I can report this AM that we were not struck my lighting, my LOH for Advent did not burst into flames and when I receive Our Lord and Savior in about an hour I doubt the Host will scorch my tongue.

It appears to me that your Christmas does not revolve around Christ as much as it does arguing with other people about your unique insights into the Christmas Tree.
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Did Solomon get struck by lightning when he disobeyed?
I can’t take credit for Jeremiah 10:1-5, it’s not my word, it’s God’s word.
By the way, I’m still waiting for the scoffers to come up with a specific heathen custom that takes a tree from the forest, and is decorated at the time of winter solstice. Looks like I’ll be waiting a long time.
 
fatherx said:
Did Solomon get struck by lightning when he disobeyed?
I can’t take credit for Jeremiah 10:1-5, it’s not my word, it’s God’s word.
By the way, I’m still waiting for the scoffers to come up with a specific heathen custom that takes a tree from the forest, and is decorated at the time of winter solstice. Looks like I’ll be waiting a long time.
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While you are awaiting the “scoffers” to to give you evidence the rest of us are waiting to celebrate the Birth of Christ-My Christmas revolves around Christ-yours around attacking christmas trees.
 
fatherx said:
Did Solomon get struck by lightning when he disobeyed?
I can’t take credit for Jeremiah 10:1-5, it’s not my word, it’s God’s word.
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And has nothing at all to do with Christmas trees.
By the way, I’m still waiting for the scoffers to come up with a specific heathen custom that takes a tree from the forest, and is decorated at the time of winter solstice. Looks like I’ll be waiting a long time.
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I guess you will, since this is a Christian custom; not a heathen custom. 😛
 
(copy & paste)
By the way, I’m still waiting for the scoffers to come up with a specific heathen custom that takes a tree from the forest, and is decorated at the time of winter solstice. Looks like I’ll be waiting a long time.

Still waiting…
 
fatherx said:
(copy & paste)
By the way, I’m still waiting for the scoffers to come up with a specific heathen custom that takes a tree from the forest, and is decorated at the time of winter solstice. Looks like I’ll be waiting a long time.

Still waiting…
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I am not aware of any heathens who did this. As far as I know, this is a strictly Christian custom.
 
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