Christopher Columbus - how can Catholics admire him and name organisations after him?

[Edward_H]

I don’t pay any attention to all the self-flagellating historical revisionism given to us by the trendy LGQRSTUVW crowds.

All of that “new history” has come from a lot of hyperventilating and very little frontal lobe effort.

People are making him out to be Hitler.

These people apologize for their own shadows when they go into a public park.

We’re not going to solve any real world problem listening to the hand-wringers.

He was daring, and helped bring more of the earth to God’s holy purpose.

I celebrate his life happily and wholeheartedly.

 

[vz71]

I thought it was a foundational principle of Catholic teaching that you cannot do evil in order to produce a good outcome. Isn’t that why Catholics oppose abortion, euthanasia and unjust war?

We oppose those things because they are wrong.

 

[FiveLinden]

We oppose those things because they are wrong

Yes but you oppose them in all circumstances, even in pursuit of a good end, because the end cannot justify the means. Some in this thread seem to think that ‘good’ outcomes of Columbus’ actions justify his actions and make his ‘veneration’ (my word, I know people don’t treat him as a saint) acceptable.

 

[vz71]

Yes but you oppose them in all circumstances, even in pursuit of a good end, because the end cannot justify the means.

No.
One cannot pursue a good end taking on these sins.
It is not a question of pursuing good.
It is simply a question of evil.

I am left questioning your views altogether if you think any of the mentioned evils would be done in some ‘good’ pusuit.

 

[vz71]

Some in this thread seem to think that ‘good’ outcomes of Columbus’ actions justify his actions and make his ‘veneration’ (my word, I know people don’t treat him as a saint) acceptable.

You have yet to back your view of Columbus with any evidence.

 

[FiveLinden]

No.

One cannot pursue a good end taking on these sins.

It is not a question of pursuing good.

It is simply a question of evil.

I am left questioning your views altogether if you think any of the mentioned evils would be done in some ‘good’ pusuit

An example of a good end sought by abortion is to save the life of the mother. An example of a good end sought by euthanasia is saving someone pain. An example of a good end sought by an unjust war is access to raw materials to improve your national security.

 

[FiveLinden]

You have yet to back your view of Columbus with any evidence.

Just read any history text that covers the subject and has not been ideologically edited. There are many, and many online references.

 

[Augustinian]

Just read any history text that covers the subject and has not been ideologically edited. There are many, and many online references.

History is just about the least impartial academic discipline out there.
All of the history texts out there are ideologically edited

 

[FiveLinden]

History is just about the least impartial academic discipline out there.

All of the history texts out there are ideologically edited

Basic facts like: As a result of Columbus at least one people was more or less exterminated. He took slaves. Many were worked to death. No evidence of help being offered to those who became sick. Murders. Rapes. Executions. These are accepted by all. Ideology happens afterwards as people condemn, explain, or excuse. Very like the Holocaust. No one in serious history disputes it.

 

[AlNg]

The reference to the rape wasn’t committed by Columbus but by one of his men.

Why did Columbus allow his men to rape young girls? Did he ever punish any of those on his crew who violently raped and assaulted young girls or did he just look the other way while these young ladies were being horribly tormented by his men. AFAIK no one on the American continent had invited Columbus and his men to come in. The just invaded and took whatever they wanted from the native young women who were trying to live in peace and had looked forward to raising a family and living a full and decent life with a native man and their children. Now these young girls were traumatized with feelings of hopelessness, anxiety, shame and revulsion after Columbus and his men destroyed their lives by their immoral sexual assaults on innocent young women who they had beaten and chained.

 

[vz71]

Just read any history text that covers the subject and has not been ideologically edited. There are many, and many online references.

None of which you can quote?
Meanwhile you have coughed up a ‘good’ abortion…a ‘good’ euthanasia…a ‘good’ war.

I suspect your view of history is fairly distorted as well.

 

[KathleenT]

Why should the KOC erase their own history? The choice of Columbus was significant, especially in the era of when the Knights were founded.

The story of Columbus and the historical treatment of him is fascinating.He is portrayed as a conquering hero and a genocidial oaf. The truth is likely in between. The story of Columbus is one of daring, war, exploration, unintended consequences, destruction of civilizations and building of new ones. There is bad AND good in his story and the man himself.

The treatment of his myth is a story unto itself. Why portray him as a hero? Why as a villian? What do these protrayals do to our collective imagination and culture? These are VERY important conversations to have with children and young adults. History at its core, is the search for the truth based on written records and other evidence left behind. But it is often used as a propaganda machine. How do you recognize that?

But that, in my opinion, does not mean we need to sanatize our history. We don’t have to change names, or tear down statutes. We don’t have to pretend things never happen. Or scoff at another era’s heros.

The Catholic Church teaches we are flawed and fallen beings in a fallen world. None of us are perfect or without sin. That is how the Knights “justify” their name. It is their history and they are entitled to it. Not that they need to justify their name to any of us.

 

[vsedriver]

Why did Columbus allow his men to rape young girls? Did he ever punish any of those on his crew who violently raped and assaulted young girls or did he just look the other way while these young ladies were being horribly tormented by his men

Can you prove that Columbus knew what was going on? Can you prove that he never punished any of his crew. Can you prove that he looked the other way?

AFAIK no one on the American continent had invited Columbus and his men to come in.

What does that have to do with anything? No one invited the native Americans to move into America either. Columbus didn’t set out to conquer a new world and enslave people. That was an accident that he had no control over. His mission was to discover a new trading route. He and his crew were not set up with a “Prime Directive” when they boldly went where no man had gone before.

Columbus had less power than you think he had. I’m not justifying the evil that was done by the Europeans when they discovered the New World. I’m just saying I think that Columbus has been unfairly branded as a rapacious villain. And it is wrong to judge the past by today’s standards. It distorts history.

 

[vz71]

Basic facts like: As a result of Columbus at least one people was more or less exterminated. He took slaves. Many were worked to death. No evidence of help being offered to those who became sick. Murders. Rapes. Executions. These are accepted by all. Ideology happens afterwards as people condemn, explain, or excuse. Very like the Holocaust. No one in serious history disputes it.

‘More or less’ exterminated?
How does that work? Did you really get that from a history text?

Who are the ‘many’ that were worked to death?

No evidence of help being offered…but no evidence otherwise either. It is poor scholarship to derive historic events based on a lack of evidence.

Murders - by Columbus?
Rapes - by Columbus?
Executions - by Columbus?

Are you ever going to put up evidence for your claims?

 

[FiveLinden]

Are you ever going to put up evidence for your claims?

No I am accepting all these things as part of established history. Evidence is easy to find. The statements have been made many times in many contexts and formed the basis of many well-publicised debates. My question as OP was not about the veracity of these statements but on they way they are managed by believing Catholics, especially given the concern the Church has over the danger of scandal.

 

[deMontfort]

Sounds like the conditions that prevailed in the atheist Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin. You know, in the “civilized” 20th Century.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Isn’t that what happened in the American slave trade ? I don’t think it was black females who were selling white European males in America? But maybe I am wrong and there were black African females selling white European males as slaves. Can you give us an example of where this might have happened in America? I never heard about that.

First of all, it would be great if Americans would bother to understand for 5 seconds that it wasn’t just Black Africans who were enslaved. Boortz said it best “there isn’t a person around today who hasn’t had an ancestor that was sold into slavery”.

Secondly, they TRIED to enslave Native Americans but were not as successful.

Third, despite the best efforts of the cultural studies crowd and Black activists and their excuse-makers, there WERE Irish slaves

Black people in Africa were the ones first selling other blacks to white folks. White folks didn’t go running through the jungle with nets

Yes, when the Portuguese first arrived, that is exactly what they found in Central East Africa. Also, Europeans stayed out of the jungle for the most part. Prior to medical technology 100 years ago, the average lifespan of a European in Africa was less than a year.

Prior to that, Europeans have had formal relationships with Sub-Saharan Africa.

It’s amazing what you can learn when you get past American Democrat talking points.

 

[vz71]

No I am accepting all these things as part of established history. Evidence is easy to find.

Only fools take things as fact without doing their research.

If the evidence were what you claim, you would have no problem bringing it forward.

I cannot take you seriously, you lack credibility.

 

[AlNg]

there WERE Irish slaves

How many Irish slaves were there in America and who was buying and selling them?

 

[FiveLinden]

I cannot take you seriously, you lack credibility

It would be wise not to engage me in debate then.