Christopher Columbus

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Irishmom2 said:
Not the school, the teacher.
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I personally wouldn’t go to the teacher. I’d email the principal. Or politely email the teacher and ask if it’s part of the curriculum. If they say yes, the next step is the principal and school board.
Irishmom2 said:
Let’s just say that people know their school districts and the school and teachers their child deals with. I am happy that you would not have a problem, but for others, it is real. Please don’t make light of a real issue that people do have sometimes.
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I’m not making light of it at all. I honestly wonder where some of these school districts are that don’t care about the taxpayer. I’m not sure if you’re in the states or not, but here, when a school loses a child their funding drops (even if it’s for a day). School leadership is pretty receptive/responsive to parent issues as they A) want to make sure each student is being taught correctly and B) don’t want to lose that funding. I live in a “smallish” town where we can’t afford to lose students, but still do on a constant basis. Each child lost from the district is over a $12,000 hit (I think last year they lost almost $120,000).
 
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Not what it says

Pope Paul III’s Sublimis Deus, rescended Pope Alexander VI’s bull Inter caetera, which gave Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand the rights to the lands discovered.

Inter Caetera was declared by Pope Alexander VI to define what lands to be explored and discovered would be Spain’s and the lands explored and discovered to be Portugal’s .

Sublimis Deus prohibited enslavement of the Indigenous People and remained in tact.
 
The Church prohibited enslavement of the indigenous people with the Papal Bull.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Church prohibited enslavement of the indigenous people with the Papal Bull.
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I did not know that Prohibited enslavement? Can you show me where it says this? There was certainly a lot of enslavement went on in Catholic jurisdictions after that date.
 
And this does not answer my question. What is your judgment on Columbus, based on the teaching of te Church and his known actions I understand that you cannot judge him by the standards of today, since you choose not to do so, but surely as a Catholic you can judge him as a historical figure against the standards of Church teaching What do you say?
 
I don’t judge Columbus as that is God’s job.

Was he an admirable figure ? For his time and what he accomplished, he was.

Should we cancel the history about him and replace it with modern day stories of how wonderful the indigenous people were at that time ? No of course not. But use the same understanding of history by keeping it in the context of those times.

Slavery was worldwide. Blacks enslaved people and bought and sold slaves in Africa.

So did Native Americans. They often took children from the enemy tribes the raided, killed the adults and took and kept the children as slaves.

Is this all wrong ? Yes, of course and the Church has opposed the enslavement of people for over 500 years.

We have spiritually evolved since the days of Columbus. But there are some people who seek revenge over something they did not suffer from, and they want to bring revenge on people who had nothing to do with it.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Not what it says

Pope Paul III’s Sublimis Deus, rescended Pope Alexander VI’s bull Inter caetera, which gave Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand the rights to the lands discovered.

Inter Caetera was declared by Pope Alexander VI to define what lands to be explored and discovered would be Spain’s and the lands explored and discovered to be Portugal’s .

Sublimis Deus prohibited enslavement of the Indigenous People and remained in tact.
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I’m not sure you understand. We agree on the content of the bull Sublimis Deus. The problem is that a year later the executing bull, Pastorale Officium, was rescinded by the pope at the behest of Spain.

In short, this was a good bull but then they rescinded it. What good is a rule or law that is null and void? Imagine if Jesus gave the Golden Rule, then in a later sermon to kowtow to the Romans said to his followers to forget the Golden Rule.
 
This ignores the religious aspect of his character. Columbus mentioned repeatedly in his writings that he wanted to convert the new land he found to Christianity and asked Spain to send missionaries. While that might not be a utopian vision, it was certainly more significant a goal than mere profit-motive.
 
I won’t deny that he showed a head for business - like when he hyped up the natural resources of the New World upon returning from his first voyage (literally claiming there were infinite spices).

But I still think his expressed desire to Christianize the region was genuine.
 
Christopher Columbus means a lot to Italian American Catholics. Columbus is also misunderstood by his critics. Columbus was involved in skirmishes with people who took up arms Against him. That is warfare to be fare …it’s not bigotry

Columbus also praised one group he encountered… the Taino people to his is queen Isabella as the most beautiful and humble people in the world
 
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Pastorale officium was an Apostolic Brief issued by Pope Paul III, May 29, 1537, to Cardinal Juan Pardo de Tavera which declares that anyone who enslaved or despoiled indigenous Americans would be automatically excommunicated.
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If anything, Pastorale officium strengthebed Sublimis deus and didn’t rescind it.
 
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Sublimis deus and Pastorale officium which says in Wikipedia;

See the previous post.
 
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JimR-OCDS said:
Pastorale officium was an Apostolic Brief issued by Pope Paul III, May 29, 1537, to Cardinal Juan Pardo de Tavera which declares that anyone who enslaved or despoiled indigenous Americans would be automatically excommunicated.
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Yes, and by rescinding Pastore Officium it nullified Sublimis Deus.
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It affirmed Sublimis Deus in that it prohibited enslavement of the indigenous people with the threat of excommunication. In other wods, Pastorale Offcium added the penalty for going against Sublimis Deus.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Sublimis deus and Pastorale officium which says in Wikipedia;

See the previous post.
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You claimed the Church has opposed the enslavement of people for 500 years. Your references are to documents relating specifically to indigenous people in the Americas. Your claim was general ‘people’. Where is the evidence for your claim?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It affirmed Sublimis Deus in that it prohibited enslavement of the indigenous people with the threat of excommunication. In other wods, Pastorale Offcium added the penalty for going against Sublimis Deus.
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I don’t understand where this confusion is coming from.

We agree that Sublimis Deus was good.

We agree that Pastore Officium was good.

But then Spain asked the Church to rescind them, which they did. That meant Sublimis Deus was not longer in force. That meant Pastore Officium was no longer in force. They made a statement against slavery then backtracked meaning they stopped speaking out against slavery.
 
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In 1435 Pope Eugene IV condemned slavery , of other Christians, in Sicut Dudum; furthermore, he explicitly forbade the enslavement of the Guanches. Pope Pius II and Pope Sixtus IV also condemned the enslavement of Christians.
 
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