Christopher West’s ideas on sexuality ignore ‘tremendous dangers,’ Alice von Hildebrand says [CNA]

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Has anyone been following the Catholic exchange lately and the criticism of Christopher West’s approach to Pope John Paul II writings of Theology of the Body? I know West is offering much good to the Church today ~ however there seems to be some ongoing criticism as well. Recently within the past few weeks, this has been between Professor David Schindler, Dr. Alice von Hildebrand and Janet Smith, all extremely well know authors, theologians and professors.

Now Janet Smith (whom I highly respect as a moral theologian) defended West’s against theologian Prof. David Schindler. I was in agreement with her assessment of Prof. Schindler’s criticism, whose expanded critique was made public on June 5. Actually, I am relieved that Smith came out in defense of West in this instance.

The issue I continue to be confused over is Dr. Alice von Hildebrand’s criticism of West (“She criticized his presentations as irreverent and insensitive to the “tremendous dangers” of concupiscence”). If you read this insert you will have a better sense of the criticism.

catholicnewsagency.com/showarchive.php?date=2009-05-12

West perspective on concupiscence leaves me concerned. It is interesting that her particular critique has not surfaced any support on West’s side against von Hildebrand.
 
West is a revolutionary in a very classic way. He takes the Church’s teachings and makes them relevant to the youth. Many people in the Church are “stuffy” about sexuality at the best of times, so of course they dislike his openness about the issue. West’s technique is not for everyone but it has brought so many young people to understand the Church more fully, how can anyone criticize that?

A critic is someone who knows the directions but cannot drive the car.

I challenge any critic of West’s to do a better job than he has at motivating the youth to be faithful to the teachings of Christ.
 
There have been several threads since West’s appearance on Nightline and the responses from both camps. It’s sad that these theologians want to play this out in the media (we’re all on the same side, here) versus get together to discuss the issues amongst themselves.

Peace,
Teri
 
West is a revolutionary in a very classic way. He takes the Church’s teachings and makes them relevant to the youth. Many people in the Church are “stuffy” about sexuality at the best of times, so of course they dislike his openness about the issue. West’s technique is not for everyone but it has brought so many young people to understand the Church more fully, how can anyone criticize that?

A critic is someone who knows the directions but cannot drive the car.

I challenge any critic of West’s to do a better job than he has at motivating the youth to be faithful to the teachings of Christ.
I do not dispute that West is a revolutionary however; I say that Dr Alice von Hildebrand is far more a classic than he is. Did you read her concerns? She is right on in regards to the concerns of his view on concupiscence. Dr. von Hildebrand has far more miles on her car and under her hood than West does.

You say that West is “motivating the youth to be faithful to the teachings of Christ” ~ you need to convince me of this for I do not believe his premise on consupiscence is necessarily being faithful to the teachings of Christ.

Above all, I firmly believe there is a greater moral consequence of concupiscence on our sexuality than he presents. Dr. Alice von Hildebrand is a highly respected theologian…I would rather error on her side and be extremely cautious when it comes to this subject then jump to the conclusion that West is doing a better job because he motivates youth and be gravely wrong.

I do believe in this area of concupiscence and its role in our moral life I side with Dr. von Hildebrand and not with West. I think he is stopping way short of what Pope John Paul II meant in the TOB. I do not dispute West’s motivating factor…I have read/listened/saw him in person and I agree he is easy to understand and he has much to teach …even more he needs to get it right!
 
IMHO, Christopher West is a great starting point for Theology of the Body, but one needs to go deeper. Allegory is a dangerous endeavor when one discusses theology, the mass, or really anything sacred, and my sense is that some of the theologians believe that West has just simply missed the mark though his intentions were good.

I really like Michael Waldstein’s presentation of the material. The forward he wrote in his interpretation of TOB is a masterpiece in itself.
 
IMHO, Christopher West is a great starting point for Theology of the Body, but one needs to go deeper. Allegory is a dangerous endeavor when one discusses theology, the mass, or really anything sacred, and my sense is that some of the theologians believe that West has just simply missed the mark though his intentions were good.

I really like Michael Waldstein’s presentation of the material. The forward he wrote in his interpretation of TOB is a masterpiece in itself.
I thank you for reminding me about his forward. I went back and read it…and WOW, you are correct it is a masterpiece. I often wonder if people remark on TOB based on Christopher West’s interpretation without having read Pope John Paul II’s original writing’s…or if they are amazed by West’s presentation.

One cannot make an assumption on JPII’s writing’s based on a layperson’s interpretations. One needs to fully understand what JPII meant and thoroughly study it…or make sure the person you are listening to/learning from/is beyond reproach. There are other lay people writing about TOB that do NOT have controversy surrounding them….read them.

Having read TOB and even had significant education - I still trust Dr. Alice von Hildebrand’s interpretation of West.
 
I don’t really care for Christopher West’s approach here, but he’s not really trying to reach me here. I am a very traditional person. Not everybody is, and a lot of people- especially young ones- are really into pop culture. It’s important that those people be reached- because they need to know about God’s love, and his plan for sexuality. The people West is trying to reach aren’t going to listen if they feel like they are getting a lecture from their grandmother. It is important to engage them in a way that will keep their attention and motivate them to make the Church’s teachings their way of life.
 
I have seen West speak and also read one of his books, and I really don’t see what is so bad about it. It has helped me and changed so much. I should also say that I am a 19 year old guy, so I probably fall into West’s target audience. I hear a lot of criticisms about West and most of it is just taking what West said out of context or just missing the point of what West was trying to say.
 
Dr. von Hildebrand’s husband wrote something on purity and I think much of her criticism from is that West differs from her late husband. Her affection for him sometimes has the appearance that she has him on a pedestal and nothing will ever compare to him or his writings.

I’ve tried to get into the vn Hildebrands and maybe someday they’ll click for me but they don’t right now. Dr. von Hildebrand should consider that Dietrich doesn’t speak to all of us just like West doesn’t speak to her.

BTW, I wonder if she had spoken to West herself about her concerns privately before calling him out publically. West was misrepresented in the media and she seemed to take advantage of this. Instead of criticising West she might have done better to present a different facet of or approach to the church’s authentic teaching on sexuality.
 
abbabidg
I have seen West speak and also read one of his books, and I really don’t see what is so bad about it. It has helped me and changed so much. I should also say that I am a 19 year old guy, so I probably fall into West’s target audience. I hear a lot of criticisms about West and most of it is just taking what West said out of context or just missing the point of what West was trying to say.
I agree with you, I’ve seen many young people around my world changing their ways for a better life since I suggested them Christopher West’s material.
Sometimes, we the Catholics, when we hear some criticism about our Catholic brothers, react in a way that doesn’t show charity toward, specially when he’s trying to do something good in this crazy world.🙂 Most of the times, we aren’t even well informed and jump into conclusions.

Don’t get discouraged, practice daily all the good things you have learned from Christopher. Keep reading JPII’s writings, as you know he loved and had so much confidence in the youth that he called it the **saints of the new century.🙂
**
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5402905&postcount=1
Rome, Italy, Jul 3, 2009 / 02:33 pm (CNA).- Fr. Maurizio Faggioni, OFM, a professor at the top pontifical institute for moral theology, the Pontifical Academy “Alphonsianum,” said in a recent interview with Catholic News Agency that the teachings of the Church suggest “far more prudence” in approaching some of the issues raised by Christopher West in his presentation of the Theology of the Body.

Faggioni, a Franciscan who teaches at the Alphonsianum, an academy named upon the father of modern Moral theology, St. Alphonsus of Liguori, is one of the most consulted moral theologians and is an advisor to several Vatican dicasteries.

In a conversation with CNA, Fr. Faggioni explained that some of the issues discussed publicly by West, such as the appropriateness of anal sex or other forms of sexual “foreplay” in married relationships, have to be dealt with using great care, since “the risk is of displacing the attention from marital love and the anthropologic meaning of lovely gestures to merely the genital aspects.”
abbabidg

I agree with you, I’ve seen many young people around my world changing their ways for a better life since I suggested them Christopher West’s material.
Sometimes, we the Catholics, when we hear some criticism about our Catholic brothers, react in a way that doesn’t show charity toward, specially when he’s trying to do something good in this crazy world.🙂 Most of the times, we aren’t even well informed and jump into conclusions.

Don’t get discouraged, practice daily all the good things you have learned from Christopher. Keep reading JPII’s writings, as you know he loved and had so much confidence in the youth that he called it the **saints of the new century.🙂
**
Some people have changed for the better because of Krishna, Yoga, Buddha, or New Age Religiosity, it doesn’t mean it is what we should inspire others to do as it isn’t the truth we are authoritatively given. We should carefully study the aspects of the faith and not just go with what seems to be working in a few cases.
 
Having read TOB and even had significant education - I still trust Dr. Alice von Hildebrand’s interpretation of West.

I agree. She is one of the greatest minds of our time…filled with wisdom from her many years of walking with the Lord. There is great need for discernment on these issues and how to teach them to our youth… We can cheapen the message with the methods if we’re not careful…Happens all the time with well meaning people trying to reach our youth…I saw more than my share of that when I was a protestant…😦
 
I still haven’t found anything that West teaches that is wrong. I’ve heard plenty of quotes by him taken out of context, yes. But nothing that he actually taught that was wrong. Instead of putting him down, you should be glad that someone is actually reaching out to kids in a positive way in our sexually charged culture. He does a much better job than all of the authors most kids have never and will never even hear of, such as Hildebrand. And all throughout his lecture, West always pointed us to another author we should read, JPII. Its only because of West that I am reading Love and Responsibilty by JPII. I am not too far into Love and Responsibilty yet (a bit of a difficult read) but so far I haven’t found anything contradtictory to what West has said.
 
I still haven’t found anything that West teaches that is wrong. I’ve heard plenty of quotes by him taken out of context, yes. But nothing that he actually taught that was wrong. Instead of putting him down, you should be glad that someone is actually reaching out to kids in a positive way in our sexually charged culture. He does a much better job than all of the authors most kids have never and will never even hear of, such as Hildebrand. And all throughout his lecture, West always pointed us to another author we should read, JPII. Its only because of West that I am reading Love and Responsibilty by JPII. I am not too far into Love and Responsibilty yet (a bit of a difficult read) but so far I haven’t found anything contradtictory to what West has said.
Personal interpretation over teaching authority?
In a conversation with CNA, Fr. Faggioni explained that some of the issues discussed publicly by West, such as the appropriateness of anal sex or other forms of sexual “foreplay” in married relationships, have to be dealt with using great care, since “the risk is of displacing the attention from marital love and the anthropologic meaning of lovely gestures to merely the genital aspects.”
We don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if some things he says are wrong, he needs to subject himself to the Church.
 
Well if West condones anal sex then yes he would be wrong. I have West’s book and have read the part that everyone talks about as condoning anal sex, but he does not say anal sex is ok. The closest he comes to that is saying somethig along the lines of “I guess if somehow anal penetration can be seen as a loving act of foreplay, then it would not be wrong, but I really can’t think of any circumstance where that could be seen as loving.” Just because he didn’t say you will burn in hell for anal penetration doesn’t mean he thinks anal sex is ok.
 
Well if West condones anal sex then yes he would be wrong. I have West’s book and have read the part that everyone talks about as condoning anal sex, but he does not say anal sex is ok. The closest he comes to that is saying somethig along the lines of “I guess if somehow anal penetration can be seen as a loving act of foreplay, then it would not be wrong, but I really can’t think of any circumstance where that could be seen as loving.” Just because he didn’t say you will burn in hell for anal penetration doesn’t mean he thinks anal sex is ok.
When I used to be a Protestant this same reasoning was used by some pastors to say that Masturbation was okay, or that almost any sort of sex act was okay between married adults. It may have been a mistake, but I can see many people who would read that and go: Well,** I ** can view it as loving act of foreplay. It opens the door just a crack for someone to misinterpret it.
 
BTW, I wonder if she had spoken to West herself about her concerns privately before calling him out publically. West was misrepresented in the media and she seemed to take advantage of this. Instead of criticising West she might have done better to present a different facet of or approach to the church’s authentic teaching on sexuality.
She did - it was (hopefully they’ll run it again) on EWTN with Fr. Groeschel. She’s fantastic. She adds that bit of the specialness of the human body that is missing, IMHO, in West’s talks/presentations. I have read some of West’s books and seen him speak. He is good and TOB is difficult to wrap your mind around so it’s good that he has made it more accessible, however Dr. Alice is definitely one smart cookie and I value what she says above most theologians.👍
 
Personally, I think Christopher West’s talks of TOB are a great starting off point. He begins his talks, and continues to remind people throughout them, that he is taking JP2’s Theology of the Body-- in his words a great peice of theology-- and condensing it, making it more digestble but always referrs peopel who are looking deeper into it to read JP2’s TOB. But again, this is my personal opinion. I’ve never heard him say anything anti-Pope, anti-Catholic.
 
18 posts so far, and I read the links, and still nobody has stated WHAT (other than a feeling, or an opinion) they disagree with.

Real sloppy arguments, people.
😊

Read his work thoroughly, read Pope John Paul 2’s works, and see if they don’t match up.
We live in a sexually perverted culture. This message of purity is being preached strongly by CW. Those who grab hold and run with it, then go farther in their search for more, and might stumble upon Dietrich Von Hildebrand’s older pre TOB work. CW is not “preaching to the choir.” He is evangelizing people who are brand new to the concept of sexual purity. AND THESE ARE CATHOLICS!!!

The ultimate purpose behind ANY evangelization is to draw people into an intimate relationship with Christ and to SAVE them from hell.

Why aren’t we rejoicing that people are being converted through the message and work of Christopher West? Don’t you people care that souls are going to hell?

Someone mentioned in an earlier post, “prove it” that people are changing their lives as a result of the work of CW. There are plenty of testimonies online if you want to seek them out. I am one. I know of many people who have not only become sexually pure, but have CONVERTED to Catholicism because of this message of Redemption.
13* For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15* And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!”
TOB as written by John Paul II is not accessible to young people who are ignorant of it. It’s barely accessible by people who know it and love it. It is an extremely difficult read. CW is a voice preaching this good news and making it accessible to the people who need to hear it the most, the ones who need to be converted.
 
I like West; I’m not persuaded. I love and respect Alice (and Dietrich) von Hildebrand, and especially realist phenomenology, but as the medievals say, the appeal to human authority is the weakest of all arguments, and I have to decide what to believe based on Dr. von Hildebrand’s arguments, not her name and her (well deserved) reputation.

I think Christopher West would agree with everything Dr. von Hildebrand actually says in this article: that the “intimate sphere” is “very mysterious, very profound, something that has a direct relationship with God,” and that fighting concupiscence “is something that calls for holiness, which very few of us achieve. It is a sheer illusion to believe that by some sort of new technique we can find the solution to the problem.” Dr. von Hildebrand says a number of things about original sin, concupiscence, and seeking holiness that I’m sure West would wholeheartedly agree with (and some of which he discusses specifically), and then says that “there are many things Christopher West does not mention.” What exactly does she mean?

My sense is this: Dr. von Hildebrand’s criticisms of West aren’t about what he says specifically, but about (1) his emphases and (2) his “vulgar” language when discussing the mystery of sex.

As for criticism one, West does say that sex is profoundly mysterious, that concupiscence is extremely dangerous, and that sexual sins are extremely difficult to overcome and can only be fought by seeking holiness. But it seems that Dr. von Hildebrand would have him talk about those things much more, or make them the whole focus of his catechesis.

I don’t hold with that objection because one speaker–one interpreter–cannot be all things to all people. If West were Catholics’ one and only source for a human and a Christian understanding of the profound mystery of sexuality, then I might be concerned that West doesn’t talk more about mystery, concupiscence, and extreme danger. Likewise, if he didn’t even mention those things, I would be concerned. But he isn’t and shouldn’t be our sole source of information about human sexuality, and so his difference in emphasis is perfectly fine. The topics he does emphasize are quite important too, especially for people new to JPII’s ToB.

On the topic of the language West uses to discuss human sexuality, I simply cannot believe that speaking frankly and openly about sexuality and sexual acts, without any euphemism, is being inappropriate or vulgar or disrespectful oft the profound mystery of human sexuality. I don’t think West’s terminology is perverse. I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with simply calling a vagina a vagina, or using the most basic, straightforward term possible to refer to recreational sex from a (perverse) man’s perspective (“getting laid”). I intend to speak frankly about sensitive topics until the day I die, including topics that involve the beautiful holiness of God or profound mystery, or even serious temptation to sin. Clarity, humility-in-language. Virtues West possesses as a writer and as a catechist.

Finally, on the topic of the Hugh Hefner comparison. It is my understanding that West compared Hugh Hefner to JPII only in the sense that they both sought an antidote to the destructive force of Puritanism and a way of filling the empty hole in their hearts, with JPII illuminating the correct solution and Hefner embracing an even deeper depravity that that which he sought to address. Now, this is a pet peeve of mine. People often react violently to comparisons involving a really evil person (or thing) on one side: “How can you even say that! How can you even compare those two!?” It’s easy. Lots of comparisons of that sort are perfectly valid, and more importantly, they are not disrespectful. For instance: Satan is like God in being pure spirit (the Incarnation notwithstanding). There, I compared Satan to God, and it was a perfectly apt comparison, and it wasn’t at all disrespectful, because I was only comparing them in one very limited sense, and absolutely in no other sense. The very same logic applies to the JPII/Hefner comparison: it is neither inaccurate nor disrespectful; it is perfectly apt (if I have understood West correctly). I know it’s a very serious (downright ridiculous, probably) charge to accuse Alice von Hildebrand of sloppy philosophy, but in this particular interview she seems to have forgotten this important truth about how comparisons work.

Finally, a quick note on “the pansexualism that surrounds our society” mentioned in the article. I agree wholeheartedly with this point: there are much more important things than sex, people in the contemporary West have a ridiculous obsession with sex, and even among serious, orthodox Catholics this obsession lingers (note young Catholics who talk about ToB more than any other point of doctrine). Does West contribute to this problem? Of course he does; he’s a ToB speaker! His calling is to speak about human sexuality, of course he’s going to draw people’s minds to that topic more often than otherwise! In fact, the better a job he does as a chastity speaker, the more he will lead unguarded minds into this particular trap. That’s just the name of the game. And West specifically talks about this obsessive oversexualization and how dangerous it is, so he’s doing his part to fight it even as his job unfortunately but necessarily encourages it sometimes.

In conclusion, nothing in this article shakes my trust in Christopher West. I don’t mean to claim that he is the best interpreter of ToB; he very well may be outclassed by a number of other writers. But I find nothing seriously objectionable in his work.
 
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