Christ's sacrafice

[jonfawkes]

Yes God gave us free will which gave us the ability to sin - if He didn’t want us to sin He wouldn’t have given us the ability to sin. He gave us free will.

 

[tonyrey]

Because God gave us free will and He is omniscient - he knew that we would fall so it must have been His will and the consequences that followed. Evil entering the world was the consequence of our poor choice - he forsaw that - He allowed it - ergo He must have wanted it.

Not at all. Have you never allowed something you don’t want? Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils… Would you prefer not to have been born?

 

[tonyrey]

How can anything happen outside God’s will? He is omnipotent - “Thy Will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven” Everything that happens is God’s will.

You are oversimplifying the matter. It is God’s Will that we choose for ourselves how to live. It is also God’s Will that His Will be done. Which do you think comes first?

 

[jonfawkes]

Not at all. Have you never allowed something you don’t want? Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils… Would you prefer not to have been born?

You are repeating yourself - see post # 94. I’ve already responded.

 

[jonfawkes]

You are oversimplifying the matter. It is God’s Will that we choose for ourselves how to live. It is also God’s Will that His Will be done. Which do you think comes first?

First God wills. God’s will is the first cause and the first mover. Nothing happens outside God’s will.

 

[tonyrey]

Not at all. Have you never allowed something you don’t want? Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils… Would you prefer not to have been born?

You have not made it clear whether you would prefer not to have been born, nor whether you have ever allowed something you don’t want. Or even whether we sometimes have to choose the lesser of two evils…

 

[tonyrey]

You are oversimplifying the matter. It is God’s Will that we choose for ourselves how to live. It is also God’s Will that His Will be done. Which do you think comes first?

That is true. It is God’s Will that we can choose to disobey His Will - and do so!

 

[jonfawkes]

You have not made it clear whether you would prefer not to have been born, nor whether you have ever allowed something you don’t want. Or even whether we sometimes have to choose the lesser of two evils…

You are still repeating the same question as ost #94I have responded to the notion of lesser of two evils in post #95 - I am not God - I am a finite being. God is infinite. He is Omnipotent, Benevolent and omniscient. He is not limited.

My birth is irrelevant.

 

[jonfawkes]

That is true. It is God’s Will that we can choose to disobey His Will - and do so!

Because He wills us the means to do so - Free Will. His will. We couldn’t disobey Him unless he willed the means to do so. Nothing happens outside His will.

 

[tonyrey]

You have not made it clear whether you would prefer not to have been born, nor whether you have ever allowed something you don’t want. Or even whether we sometimes have to choose the lesser of two evils…

Those statements do not answer my questions. The fact that God is infinite, omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient does not alter the fact that He has to choose the lesser of two evils, i.e. to permit evil or not to create persons with free will. Omnipotent does not mean “capricious” or “absurd”. It means the power to do anything that is possible. It is impossible, for example, to create persons with free will and force them to choose what He wills.

My birth is irrelevant.

Your birth is not irrelevant because if you don’t wish you hadn’t been born you must believe your life is worthwhile in spite of its drawbacks.

[/QUOTE]

 

[tonyrey]

Those statements do not answer my questions. The fact that God is infinite, omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient does not alter the fact that He has to choose the lesser of two evils, i.e. to permit evil or not to create persons with free will. Omnipotent does not mean “capricious” or “absurd”. It means the power to do anything that is possible. It is impossible, for example, to create persons with free will and force them to choose what He wills.

Your birth is not irrelevant because if you don’t wish you had been born you must believe your life is worthwhile in spite of its drawbacks.

 

[tonyrey]

Your birth is not irrelevant because if you don’t wish you hadn’t been born you must believe your life is worthwhile in spite of its drawbacks.

This should be " if you wish you hadn’t been born…"

 

[jonfawkes]

Those statements do not answer my questions. The fact that God is infinite, omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient does not alter the fact that He has to choose the lesser of two evils, i.e. to permit evil or not to create persons with free will. Omnipotent does not mean “capricious” or “absurd”. It means the power to do anything that is possible. It is impossible, for example, to create persons with free will and force them to choose what He wills.

Your birth is not irrelevant because if you don’t wish you hadn’t been born you must believe your life is worthwhile in spite of its drawbacks.

He’s God, he makes all things possible or impossible. He is only limited by free will because He chooses to be. He could rescind free will and make us obey. He doen’t have to choose anything, He makes the rules.

My birth is irrelevant to the conversation because I’m a finite being I don’t have the same options as God. My preferences are based on my limitations. God isn’t bound by being finite.

 

[tonyrey]

Those statements do not answer my questions. The fact that God is infinite, omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient does not alter the fact that He has to choose the lesser of two evils, i.e. to permit evil or not to create persons with free will. Omnipotent does not mean “capricious” or “absurd”. It means the power to do anything that is possible. It is impossible, for example, to create persons with free will and force them to choose what He wills.

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes;7367119:

It is impossible for God to force a person with free will to choose something, not because His power is limited but because He would deprive that person of free will.

Of course He could but that would defeat the purpose of giving us freewill in the first place. Inconsistency is not the criterion of omnipotence!

God makes the rules and He abides by them unless there is a very good reason for not doing so. What is the point of giving us free will to shape our destiny and then rescinding it? It would be simpler not to create us at all…

Your finitude and options are irrelevant but your birth is not. You have implied that God should not created you or anyone else because He knew that evil would ensue. Yet you have also implied that life is worth living. This is a clear contradiction.

Nothing is impossible or He’s not omnipotent.

He gives life and then takes it. Is that inconsistent? All things are his to give and take.

You are speculating that it would be better. Animals are created without free will - I think there is value in them.

I’m not implying anything of the sort. Trees, Fish, the earth etc all created without free will and God called them all GOOD.

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey;7367870:

Nothing is impossible or He’s not omnipotent.

Do you think God can destroy Himself? Do you think God destroy the universe and keep it in existence at the same time? Can God command us to hate, torture, rape and murder people?

He gives life and then takes it. Is that inconsistent?

No because He has created the biocycle in which death is an essential element.

All things are his to give and take.

Not the things He has given to us forever - our existence and our free will.

You are speculating that it would be better. Animals are created without free will - I think there is value in them.
I’m not implying anything of the sort. Trees, Fish, the earth etc all created without free will and God called them all GOOD.

Of course they are valuable. Free will is not the only valuable aspect of life. That has no bearing on my argument.

 

[jonfawkes]

jonfawkes;7367926:

Do you think God can destroy Himself? Do you think God destroy the universe and keep it in existence at the same time? Can God command us to hate, torture, rape and murder people?

No because He has created the biocycle in which death is an essential element.
Not the things He has given to us forever - our existence and our free will.

Of course they are valuable. Free will is not the only valuable aspect of life. That has no bearing on my argument.

Yes, if He is omnipotent - don’t ask me how, I live in a dualistic world with a finite mind - He does not. OMNIPOTENT - power without constraint.

He created everything - He gives and He takes. Are you telling God what He can and cannot do. “Hey no take backs!”

 

[tonyrey]

            *Do you think God can destroy Himself? Do you think God destroy the universe and keep it in existence at the same time? Can God command us to hate, torture, rape and murder people?

You are forgetting that omnipotence is not God’s only attribute. In His case might is **not **right. He is infinitely wise, good, just and merciful as well as infinitely powerful.

Do you think God can destroy Himself? Do you think God can destroy the universe and keep it in existence at the same time? Would God command us to hate, torture, rape and murder people? If not why not?

 

[jonfawkes]

Yes if he chooses - that is omnipotence. He isn’t bound by duality.

 

[davidv]

Yes if he chooses - that is omnipotence. He isn’t bound by duality.

He must, however, be himself. He cannot exist and not exist at the same time. He cannot be, no matter however powerful, both good and evil. He cannot create contradictions, like square circles.

Edit: What is this duality you bring up?