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tweetymom
Guest
Apparently not. I do not need defense. When they do sickening deeds they are not holy
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tweetymom
Guest
Sorry, will pray for you. Been ther done that.
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rlg94086
Guest
The sickening deeds are not holy. However, a sinful act does not remove the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Also, what does that have to do with priests who don’t do sickening things?
There is no connection to be made between the abuse scandal and the use of EMHCs. The abuse scandal is not an indictment of all priests or the Catholic Church, as a whole. It is a sad case of the sinfulness of man that the Church is trying to correct. I pray that the safeguards they have put in place over the last few years are effective.
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tweetymom
Guest
You still do not get so I see. I never said it had anything to do with Priest who don’t do sickening things. It is too bad that it isn’t remove as well as the men.
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silentstar
Guest
thanks I appreciate it.
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manualman
Guest
I find that an awful lot of fights occur because people have different impressions about the definition of a word. Technically, the word HOLY literally means “set apart for (or by) God.” Common vernacular use tends to mean “posessing a high level of virtue due to a developed relationship with God.” That latter one is actually NOT the proper definition of holy.
This is why the Church is One, HOLY, Catholic and Apostolic. Set apart by an act of God. This is why a chalice is treated reverently even when it does not contain even the tiniest spec of precious blood (same goes for an altar). Even things can be specially set apart from others and dedicated as holy things.
This is why a baptized person is “holier” than an unbaptised one. One has received the indelible mark of Grace, the other (if truly unbaptized in any of the 3 senses) does not. They might BOTH end up roommates in hell. Holy doesn’t automatically mean better.
Same reason a priest is always holier than a layman. He may have a weaker faith, be a worse sinner and might even wind up in hell some day. But during his time on earth, the Grace of Holy Orders has set him apart one step further. Again, this doesn’t always mean CLOSER to God. Only reason it doesn’t is that pesky human sin problem.
You guys aren’t as far apart as you think, you’re just talking past each other.
This is why the Church is One, HOLY, Catholic and Apostolic. Set apart by an act of God. This is why a chalice is treated reverently even when it does not contain even the tiniest spec of precious blood (same goes for an altar). Even things can be specially set apart from others and dedicated as holy things.
This is why a baptized person is “holier” than an unbaptised one. One has received the indelible mark of Grace, the other (if truly unbaptized in any of the 3 senses) does not. They might BOTH end up roommates in hell. Holy doesn’t automatically mean better.
Same reason a priest is always holier than a layman. He may have a weaker faith, be a worse sinner and might even wind up in hell some day. But during his time on earth, the Grace of Holy Orders has set him apart one step further. Again, this doesn’t always mean CLOSER to God. Only reason it doesn’t is that pesky human sin problem.
You guys aren’t as far apart as you think, you’re just talking past each other.
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tweetymom
Guest
Listen these perverts who molest children are not holy, I don’t care who they are or what they do. They are sicko’s period.
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rlg94086
Guest
My problem is not with tweety’s misunderstanding of the term “holy.” It is actually with the idea of tying abusive priests and/or bishops who shuffled them around to the licitness of EMHCs. They are unrelated topics, but she uses the abuse scandal to support her point-of-view. That is just plain silly and something an anti-Catholic would do, quite frankly.
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tweetymom
Guest
And I like being silly ok.
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rlg94086
Guest
Amen to that!And I like being silly ok.
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adrift
Guest
This is about the fifth or sixth thread about it.
Popes can sin. That is a fact proven by history. They are not protected by the Holy Spirit from sinning only from a wrong teaching on faith and morals.
The press is trying to blow this up. They are trying to embroil the Pope as if he did something. Note that the article says
.
This article is written in such away as to deny any wrong doing by the pope and his brother while insinuating that there is.
I have said this in another thread.
The bishops followed the current advise of psychiatry. That is these priest could be cured though therapy. They sent them to therapy before moving them to a new parish. Now they are being criticized because they followed wrong advise. It can be argued that after the first move and the priest re offended that they should of realized the bad advice they got. That is where I fault those bishops who did this.
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tweetymom
Guest
i could have told them therapy doesn’t work, and if the blind lead the blind they all fall in a ditch.
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ChrisWRIT
Guest
I don’t believe tweetymom was addressing the licitness of EHMC’s either directly or intentionally.
Her comment was off topic - a reply to a post she saw somewhere else, which said “ordinary people were not qualified to handle communion, because they were not Holy enough.”
Other than the baseless assertion of the unidentified poster, the statements biggest problem is that it is vague enough for people to claim that “Holy” means the sacrament of “Holy Orders”.
Maybe that’s what they meant, maybe not.
Regardless, this posting is what led to her ultimate point (which was also off topic, but understandable):
Aside from the question “more holy” than whom? … my answer would be “Yes, anyone who has received the sacrament or ordination is likely more ‘holy’ (in general) than those who have not - based on the fact that they can consecrate the Eucharist, & no one else can. They are not less human than those who are not ordained, nor are they more perfect, even if more is expected of them.”
While I am saddened at the instances of abuse that have occurred around the world by clergy, & pray for both the victims, the priests & the Church, I recognize three realities.
- Even though sexual abuse is horrible, it is far more common in the secular world than among Catholic priests.
- Sin does not automatically revoke the sacrament of Holy Orders & make a priest unable to consecrate the Eucharist.
- How can anyone claim to be truly “worthy” either to give or receive the Lord in such an intimate manner, regardless of their post?
Your opinion, professional or not, that “therapy does’t work” is incorrect. Therapy is not a “magic wand” any more than anything else, but that it simply “doesn’t work” is grossly inaccurate.
The bishops in question may indeed have been “blind” in regards to how to best help priests who were commiting sexual sins. I suspect that’s why they went to psychiatrists for advice in dealing with it.
While I agree that psychology & psychiatry are the softest of all sciences, the fact is that the bishops were looking for people better equipped to “see” what really needed to be done to help their priests, so it’s unreasonable to claim that those who didn’t know how to respond erred in asking those who could reasonably have been expected to have a better idea.
Back to the topic:
I agree with others who have noted that this “story” is merely another attack on the Church which is based on judging past acts by current standards. Not only “past acts” but past acts that are unrelated to the current furor over the sexual scandals.
“Be not afraid” indeed seems appropriate in response to the ongoing attempt to claim the Church is bad because there are sinners in it, whether lay or clergy. Thank God the Church isn’t valid only so much as its members are “perfect”, or even just “good”.
Why am I reminded of the statement that “healthy people don’t need a doctor”?!
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tweetymom
Guest
Glad you understood my point even if it is off topic. Sorry but I do disagree with Holy. These men ar not holy they are perverts and sickening.I don’t believe tweetymom was addressing the licitness of EHMC’s either directly or intentionally.
Her comment was off topic - a reply to a post she saw somewhere else, which said “ordinary people were not qualified to handle communion, because they were not Holy enough.”
Other than the baseless assertion of the unidentified poster, the statements biggest problem is that it is vague enough for people to claim that “Holy” means the sacrament of “Holy Orders”.
Maybe that’s what they meant, maybe not.
Regardless, this posting is what led to her ultimate point (which was also off topic, but understandable):
Aside from the question “more holy” than whom? … my answer would be “Yes, anyone who has received the sacrament or ordination is likely more ‘holy’ (in general) than those who have not - based on the fact that they can consecrate the Eucharist, & no one else can. They are not less human than those who are not ordained, nor are they more perfect, even if more is expected of them.”
While I am saddened at the instances of abuse that have occurred around the world by clergy, & pray for both the victims, the priests & the Church, I recognize three realities.
Your opinion, professional or not, that “therapy does’t work” is incorrect. Therapy is not a “magic wand” any more than anything else, but that it simply “doesn’t work” is grossly inaccurate.
- Even though sexual abuse is horrible, it is far more common in the secular world than among Catholic priests.
- Sin does not automatically revoke the sacrament of Holy Orders & make a priest unable to consecrate the Eucharist.
- How can anyone claim to be truly “worthy” either to give or receive the Lord in such an intimate manner, regardless of their post?
The bishops in question may indeed have been “blind” in regards to how to best help priests who were commiting sexual sins. I suspect that’s why they went to psychiatrists for advice in dealing with it.
While I agree that psychology & psychiatry are the softest of all sciences, the fact is that the bishops were looking for people better equipped to “see” what really needed to be done to help their priests, so it’s unreasonable to claim that those who didn’t know how to respond erred in asking those who could reasonably have been expected to have a better idea.
Back to the topic:
I agree with others who have noted that this “story” is merely another attack on the Church which is based on judging past acts by current standards. Not only “past acts” but past acts that are unrelated to the current furor over the sexual scandals.
“Be not afraid” indeed seems appropriate in response to the ongoing attempt to claim the Church is bad because there are sinners in it, whether lay or clergy. Thank God the Church isn’t valid only so much as its members are “perfect”, or even just “good”.
Why am I reminded of the statement that “healthy people don’t need a doctor”?!
There would be no attacks if stuff had not been Insteed everything id hiden and now it is hid for years. Why not come out and tell the truth and clean house.
I would have told them as well I am sure others who have been molested that the only time these sicko’s can be healed is when they die. And the guilty ones are the ones who hid it.
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Ecoclimber
Guest
BERLIN — Chancellor Angela Merkel called the sex abuse scandal rocking the homeland of Pope Benedict XVI a major challenge to German society and warned the only way to come to terms with it was to “find out everything that has happened.”
Merkel’s comments to parliament on Wednesday came amid growing impatience from Germany’s Roman Catholics for the pontiff to address the scandal in his homeland, where some 300 former Catholic students have come forward with claims of physical or sexual abuse.
Not to Pontificate,pun, but…
In light of Vatican responses to the sexual abuse problem, it’s unfortunate that the Vatican today, does not seem to be attuned to the global speed of accessing and processing information and the ability of communicating that information around the world. What happens last night is front page fodder of news organizations in every country. The public relations arm of the Vatican reacts as though, it still medieval age. What starts as spark suddenly becomes a firestorm. It’s unfortunate that the Vatican does not sense the pulse of world’s reaction on this by remaining silent on many of these concerns which only adds speculation and fuel to the continuing firestorm of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church. It’s far easier to maintain a siege mentality, us against the world, but this strategy is usually used by various cults to keep their members in line. What the world is looking for is accountability and transparency in order to gauge the severity of the situation. A cloak of silence only lends credence that there is really more going on when in all actuality, the scope of the problem may not be large.
It unfortunate now, as all clergy will then be labeled with the broad brush of this issue and under the spectra or cloud of sexual abuse. The ramifications will be great. Already in Austria and Germany, the Catholic hierarchy are concern about the exodus of Catholics from the Church. In both countries, Catholics have to present to the government a certificate or license acquired from the Catholic Church, before you can leave the Church. Catholics leaving the Church in Austria is 30% greater then the year before.
Catholic laity in all regions of the world, will then become concern about the well being of their children in Catholic institutions under this cloud of suspicion if this problem continues to fester. Can I trust my children with the clergy or is the priest in my parish a closet pedophile, will be a rightful concern among parents and the Catholic laity.
The Church has a moral duty since it presents itself as a champion of morals and ethics unlike other secular institutions where these problems also exist. Once the Church loses its moral authority, then the Church will be in grave peril within the borders of every country.
Merkel’s comments to parliament on Wednesday came amid growing impatience from Germany’s Roman Catholics for the pontiff to address the scandal in his homeland, where some 300 former Catholic students have come forward with claims of physical or sexual abuse.
Not to Pontificate,pun, but…
In light of Vatican responses to the sexual abuse problem, it’s unfortunate that the Vatican today, does not seem to be attuned to the global speed of accessing and processing information and the ability of communicating that information around the world. What happens last night is front page fodder of news organizations in every country. The public relations arm of the Vatican reacts as though, it still medieval age. What starts as spark suddenly becomes a firestorm. It’s unfortunate that the Vatican does not sense the pulse of world’s reaction on this by remaining silent on many of these concerns which only adds speculation and fuel to the continuing firestorm of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church. It’s far easier to maintain a siege mentality, us against the world, but this strategy is usually used by various cults to keep their members in line. What the world is looking for is accountability and transparency in order to gauge the severity of the situation. A cloak of silence only lends credence that there is really more going on when in all actuality, the scope of the problem may not be large.
It unfortunate now, as all clergy will then be labeled with the broad brush of this issue and under the spectra or cloud of sexual abuse. The ramifications will be great. Already in Austria and Germany, the Catholic hierarchy are concern about the exodus of Catholics from the Church. In both countries, Catholics have to present to the government a certificate or license acquired from the Catholic Church, before you can leave the Church. Catholics leaving the Church in Austria is 30% greater then the year before.
Catholic laity in all regions of the world, will then become concern about the well being of their children in Catholic institutions under this cloud of suspicion if this problem continues to fester. Can I trust my children with the clergy or is the priest in my parish a closet pedophile, will be a rightful concern among parents and the Catholic laity.
The Church has a moral duty since it presents itself as a champion of morals and ethics unlike other secular institutions where these problems also exist. Once the Church loses its moral authority, then the Church will be in grave peril within the borders of every country.
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rep140
Guest
The Church has a moral duty since it presents itself as a champion of morals and ethics unlike other secular institutions where these problems also exist. Once the Church loses its moral authority, then the Church will be in grave peril within the borders of every country.
This is a good point. I have real sympathy for those abused and for all the good priests who have to bear suspicion because of others. I am 3 score plus in years and have endured my share of priests who I wish had been in another parish, but none of these have ever been accused of something like this abuse stuff.
The institutional church forgot that its duty is pastoral and not protecting an institution.
This is a good point. I have real sympathy for those abused and for all the good priests who have to bear suspicion because of others. I am 3 score plus in years and have endured my share of priests who I wish had been in another parish, but none of these have ever been accused of something like this abuse stuff.
The institutional church forgot that its duty is pastoral and not protecting an institution.
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Tamsulosin
Guest
It has been suggested that the liberal media has put the Catholic scandal in the front burner this week,and it is broadcasting details every hour or so in CNN, to take credance and power from the bishops trying to lobby the Congress on behalf of the prolife endevour.
Disgrceful and horrible as the priest’s deeds were, they took place many years ago, but they surfaced and they are emphasized just now.
I guess we need to be charitable and believe it is a coincidence and not done on purpose.
Disgrceful and horrible as the priest’s deeds were, they took place many years ago, but they surfaced and they are emphasized just now.
I guess we need to be charitable and believe it is a coincidence and not done on purpose.
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