Church and Mass

[Paul_theApostle]

Does it really matter what our church buildings look like inside and out?

whether they are really bare inside with no pictures or icons or statues,compared to real colorful decorative churches with statues or icons everywhere and candles

And also with the music,does it really matter if we go to Masses with music not to our liking perhaps like guitars or elderly people trying to sing who really cant sing or when sometimes they use a radio with music playing

These things do influence me in regards to where i want to go church

Some churches may have nice gregorian chant and colorful decorative walls and icons while others are really bare

and the architecture and shape of the church may be real modern and it doesnt feel like your old style church,or the altars may be nice marble or some may be like a kitchen wooden table

anyhow do these things really matter anyway? is the whole point or the most important thing that the Priest is a true Priest who is able to perform the Sacraments and consecrate the Eucharist?

so as long as i can recieve the real eucharist ,it shouldnt matter about the music or archictecture or bare walls?

 

[fermat]

It is the thought that goes into the design that matters. We make churches grand because of what happens there. We are offering the best of everything to God in thanksgiving. So I would say that it does matter. If we can build grand places to worship, we should. If the grandest thing that we can manage is a middle school multipurpose room, then so be it.

 

[adstrinity]

YES IT MATTERS!!! The past 40 years have proved that it matters. People leaving the Catholic Church in droves and leaving God has shown that it matters.

God wants beauty and wants beauty for us. God wants our hearts and minds to be lifted up to Him. That CANNOT happen in a circle building with a vague human silhouette on a post-modern plus sign.

Modern music at Mass can go to Hell.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Fermat
Your right i see what you mean

i think i brought this up because my local parish is a church which uses a small radio for the vigil mass if i want to go on Sat night,the shape is weird also and inside looks like a big assembly hall,the walls are all bare ,the altar candles arent impressive ,the crucifix behind the altar is a big star,and also the sermons there drag on alot and are about social issues rather then the Gospel reading

Many times i go to other Churches to enjoy better music or better sermons,or to see more color and life inside the church

but in the end im wondering if i should still go to my parish(being very close and convenient) and not worry about these external things

If the Mass still gets said and i can still recieve the Eucharist then maybe i shouldnt worry about these other things and keep switching churches?

To the above post,if we prayed the Mass on a hill with nothing but an altar and green grass and tress around us,wouldnt we still be able to offer our prayers to God in the Mass and recieve Christ in the Eucharist?

isnt that the main thing?

im just asking is it worth switching parishes because we dont like the music or architecture at our church?

 

[adstrinity]

PaultheApostle,

Your soul is at stake. You do anything and everything you can to preserve it. The fact that you are not going to the closest parish shows that you are trying to give your soul what it needs.

I’m going to recommend the FSSP or the ICK, if there’s a parish where they celebrate within a 100 mile radius of you. If not, is there a diocesan priest who celebrates in Latin? You wont have to worry about what is permitted and what is licit there (as long as you stick with the above options), and, even if it’s a plain building (as mine is, with no stained windows, not a lot of statues), they will do everything they can to adorn it for God.

What kind of question is that, the hill and the trees? Why is that even an issue? Parish the thought! A scenario like that should NEVER be the norm…EVER!!!

What’s wrong with Mass at a cruciform church? We have that opportunity! We are not celebrating in secret and we are Catholic. When people pass our church, EVERYBODY should know, “That is a Catholic Church.”

 

[svid2]

It matters to me!

It matters, when I go to Holy Mass: do I worship the Almighty or do I yawn?

IT MATTERS!!!.

 

[kmuestwin]

I think the answer to this question is to do whatever draws you closest to God.

I go to Mass at an ugly parish. It looks like an auditorium but it has a nice crucifix and tabernacle and the altar is adorned with fresh flowers when we can afford it. We do a good job of making sure that the colors on the altar reflect the liturgical season but we can’t really afford to do anything else.

There is a beautiful parish about ten minutes away from where I live it is always beautiful. It is the oldest church in the area and it has really beautiful stained glass and an altar with altar rails. It is old and the atmosphere really feels holy.

The first parish is 30 second walk from my apartment but that’s not why I go there. The first parish has a priest that is one of the most devout and God loving people I know. He is always moving and working to bring more souls to God. He has an incredibly deep love for scripture and his homilies always seem to resonate well with me and stick with me. He has helped me find my faith and he has been a great example of how I wish to live and inspire people in whatever vocation I am called to.

I truly find God in my little ugly church. I work there all the time trying to make it better and more appealing. I know that as long as I’m bringing God my best, its pleasing to him. If I were to live in an impoverished area and all we had to say mass in was a hut, I would make sure it was the best hut but it would still be a hut.

God is merciful enough to come even to the ugly churches. We should be too.

The only way to make a place any better is to go there and work.

 

[paperbackwinter]

Personally, I go back and forth on this issue. I do know that bad music makes it harder for me to participate in the Mass. At my Church, the soloist seems to pick out songs that you can’t sing with her. So the congregation is regulated to being observers. It gets to the point where people don’t respond to prayers.

I think quality makes the difference. I would prefer a bare Church with an involved congregation than the most beautiful cathedral with an uninvolved congregation.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Adstrinity

so you recomend Latin Mass?

is there a big difference with these Masses and will i understand whats going on?

i was just trying to say that if the Eucharist is real at any Catholic Mass even at the New Masses does it matter about the music and building

you seem to say it does matter and the music and the other things can maybe enhance our whole experience of God and the Liturgy?

thanks

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I think that the environment can help to enhance my worship.

That said, I am a simple girl with simple tastes, so I subscribe to the “less is more” theory.
We have a few churches within a few miles of my house that are very old, ethnic parishes that are beatutiful- filled with all kinds of “Catholic eye-candy”
and there are times when I feel the need to have that kind of environment,
so I will attend a Mass at one of them.
But for the most part, I tend to find all the “stuff” distracting,
so I usually attend a church that is pretty simple in it’s decoration-
just the altar with the tabernacle front & center, a couple of statues (St. Joseph & the Blessed Mother), and some beautiful stained glass.
It’s simple, elegant and a place where I find a lot of peace.

 

[adstrinity]

Adstrinity

so you recomend Latin Mass?

is there a big difference with these Masses and will i understand whats going on?

i was just trying to say that if the Eucharist is real at any Catholic Mass even at the New Masses does it matter about the music and building

you seem to say it does matter and the music and the other things can maybe enhance our whole experience of God and the Liturgy?

thanks

If you are a Latin Rite Catholic, I absolutely recommend the Latin Mass.

What do you mean, “Is there a big difference with these Masses?” Do you mean among the Latin Masses, from one to the next in any one parish or any other or do you mean is there a difference between the EF and the OF?

You will not understand what is going on, not even the priest understands fully what is going on, but, there are missals there to help one follow along as to what is being said and done by the priest (and chior, should their be one).

One goes to Mass to worship God. One goes to mass for Adoration, Petition, Thansgiving, and Reparation. We’re not there to have an experience. I’m not saying this against you, I am saying it for the benefit of all reading. As you are probably getting at, the Mass is the Mass is the Mass, it IS the same sacrifice and if the proper matter and form is used, it is the Mass, but, again, it is about God. It is not about what it makes anybody in the parish congregation feel, it’s about worshiping God. It is about doing what God wants and placing the focus ENTIRELY, COMPLETELY, and TOTALLY on Him.

Art matters because it either makes us think of God and his miracles and the beauty of the human form or it distracts us because it is ugly and wondering what it is supposed to be.

Music matters because it is either focused on God or focused on us.

Shape matters because we are visual.

Priest…may or may not matter. Doesn’t matter the priest’s personality or sanctity because even if the priest doesn’t believe, if the Father Agnostic or Father Heretic says the right words over the right matter, there is still the Mass.
…That said, a holy priest who teaches what the Church teaches week after week from the pulpit is a HUGE help, but, the sermon is actually an interruption of the Mass.

No problem.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

adstrinity

yes i meant the difference between the Latin and the NO mass

i know there is plenty discussion here comparing these two masses but havnt read them

with Adoration, Petition, Thansgiving, and Reparation couldnt we give that also in the NO mass?

I will try to attend the Latin mass here so i do thank you for the encouragement ,are you someone who believe the NO mass isnt valid?

could you tell me perhaps why you prefer the Latin mass compared to the NO?

cheers

 

[Sirach2]

Below are some thoughts from the Holy See that might be useful.

I agree with you that if we place all of our expectations in the sensual aspects with regard to liturgy, we can be misled into believing that, if these are extraordinary, therefore our worship is more sublime. Not so in the** spiritual** realm. Consider the liturgies celebrated by early christians in the starkness of the catecombs as they hid from their persecutors. This is when they coined the secret code word ‘fish’ among themselves.

OTOH, a steady diet of banality will not be enriching to us spiritually; we truly need to experience both sense and spirit as we worship, for the former often enhances the latter. My pastor, God bless him, has learned the musical accompaniment to Eucharistic Prayer IV, which in itself is the most beautiful of all EP’s, for it tells the whole story of salvation. Our organist plays softly while he chants it, and I absolutely have goosebumps of devotion that fill me with awe.

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/2004/documents/ns_lit_doc_20040202_liturgia-bellezza_en.html
**2. The source of the liturgy’s beauty **
Is there a boundary between aesthetic emotion and an authentic sense of the spiritual? Is a beautiful liturgy one which satisfies the tastes of consumers? The liturgy is not a consumer good; it is not the Church’s supermarket! We know it is first and foremost the work of God, adoration, reception, bestowal. Hence we must ask ourselves what are the fundamental criteria for the beauty of the liturgy, apart from trends and tastes. It would be a great error simply to apply secular standards of aesthetic taste to the liturgy.

Beauty in the liturgy always calls for some renunciation on our part: we must renounce banality, over-imagination, extravagance. Moreover, the liturgy must be given the time and space it needs. We must not be in a hurry. Rather than taking the initiative, we must allow God the freedom to speak to us and reach us through his Word, through prayer, gestures, music, song, light, incense, fragrances. Like a musical composition, the liturgy needs space, time, silence, detachment from ourselves, so that words, gestures and signs may speak to us of God.

*The beauty and the dignity of worship. *At the beginning of the third millennium it is necessary to show a Church which celebrates, prays and lives the Mystery of Christ in the dignity and the beauty of its celebration. A beauty which is not only aesthetic formalism, but is rooted in “noble simplicity” and is capable of revealing the relationship between the human and the divine in the liturgy.

 

[adstrinity]

adstrinity

yes i meant the difference between the Latin and the NO mass

i know there is plenty discussion here comparing these two masses but havnt read them

with Adoration, Petition, Thansgiving, and Reparation couldnt we give that also in the NO mass?

I will try to attend the Latin mass here so i do thank you for the encouragement ,are you someone who believe the NO mass isnt valid?

could you tell me perhaps why you prefer the Latin mass compared to the NO?

cheers

Again, the Mass is the Mass as far as it is the same Sacrifice, BUT, that’s just it, in the OF, the emphasis of the Sacrifice is really downplayed. At the EF the priest spends the entire time begging God to make him worthy and to accept the Sacrifice.

Adoration, Petition, Thanksgiving, and Reparation – Absolutely you can offer all when assisting at the OF, but, how do you know how to do this? I never once at an OF Mass heard this is what one is supposed to be doing at Mass.

The OF Mass is valid; the Pope celebrates it. One can fulfill the obligation by going to an OF Mass…but, good/holy/orthodox ones are so few and far between. There are great ones, decent ones, goofy ones, and completely invalid ones. The Great Ones are ad orientem, using the proper words. The Decent Ones are ad genetum and using the shortest prayers the priest can get away with. The goofy ones are sad because apparenly the priest doesn’t remember Who he is dealing with, but, nonetheless, are still valid (if not offensive and questionable). Then there are the invalid ones – one where a woman says the words of concecration or not the right bread is used.

I prefer the EF to the OF because the priest cannot mess it up; he does not have that option. Spend enough time on this forum and you will see, and you yourself may even ask: My priest did X, can he do that? or some other form of that question. You may notice your priest doing some things that, after being on this forum for a while, don’t quite sit well with you… You may see priests at other parishes not doing the same thing; maybe they are right to not do the same thing, maybe they are very wrong, but, this should NEVER be in the mind of those assiting at Mass.

Mass is to worship God. The Mass IS The Sacrifice; nothing goofy should go on DURING the Mass (again, the homily is an interruption of the Mass). One’s mind should be focused COMPLETELY on God, not the soloist, not the organist, not the priest, and definitely not what he is wearing.

GOD.

The Latin Mass teaches actual Catholicism, and, after a while, the OF makes sense…or it doesn’t. One realizes why things are done in a certain way at the OF AND, also, one realizes when a goofy thing happens at an OF Mass.

I really hope you do go to a Latin Mass. You may not like it at first…that is okay, just keep going.

And, as far as having Mass outside – technically there is nothing ugly at which to stare (bad art, tacky clothes), BUT, the wind can carry off the Host, to be eaten by the insects and birds (and, seriously, think about that sacriledge) or a fly can land in the Precious Blood, and, somebody would either have to drink that fly or commit sacriledge and dispose of that fly, and some of Christ’s Blood. One does well to drink the hypothetical fly.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

the sermon is actually an interruption of the Mass.

Mass is to worship God. The Mass IS The Sacrifice; nothing goofy should go on DURING the Mass (again, the homily is an interruption of the Mass).
GOD.

I was going to let this go the first time, but since you felt the need to say it again, I must interject here.

You are wrong adstrinity, the homily is, indeed, a very important part of the Mass, and not at all an “interruption”-

From the GIRM

The Homily

1. The Homily is part of the Liturgy and is highly recommended, for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an explanation of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of
   the listeners.

1. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the Priest Celebrant himself or be entrusted by him to a concelebrating Priest, or from time to time and, if appropriate, to the Deacon, but never to a lay person. In particular cases and for a just cause, the Homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

On Sundays and Holydays of Obligation there is to be a Homily at every Mass that is celebrated with the people attending, and it may not be omitted without a grave reason. On other days it is recommended, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and Easter Time, as well as on other festive days and occasions when the people come to church in greater numbers.

It is appropriate for a brief period of silence to be observed after
the Homily.

 

[Warrenton]

anyhow do these things really matter anyway?

Of course they really matter. That is why the Church, from her earliest history, has made her places of worship beautiful and adorned them with art that directs the worshippers’ attention toward heaven.

At least, until the past decades, when the opposite tendency has arisen.

The way the church is built, the way the mass is sung, the way the statues are carved or the paintings painted is communication.

The people who designed, built and adorned Rheims Cathedral are speaking to you about the mass and our holy Church. So are the people who designed and built the edifice where sits the cathedra of the Archbishop of Los Angeles.

But their messages are diametrically opposed.

So yes, it is really important.

 

[adstrinity]

I was going to let this go the first time, but since you felt the need to say it again, I must interject here.

You are wrong adstrinity, the homily is, indeed, a very important part of the Mass, and not at all an “interruption”-

From the GIRM

If it’s part of the Mass, then why does the priest take off his maniple before he delivers his sermon?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Well, since the maniple is no longer, and has not been in my lifetime, a required vestment for a priest I cannot answer that.

Not exactly sure what that has to do with anything anyway.

The homily, as per the GIRM, is an important part of the Mass.
To say otherwise, IMHO, saying the the Church is wrong.

 

[Sirach2]

Strike three, Adstrinity - pitting the EF against and in explicit opposition to the OF.

And you’ve been here how long, to know better?

 

[promethius]

the sermon is actually an interruption of the Mass.

No, it most certainly is not an “interuption”. The liturgy of the word is handed down to us from the synagogues of our old testament heritage, and the homily is a part of that liturgy. It predates Catholicism and is part of the worship that God ordained for mankind from the very beginning.