Church Attendance/Participation

[JohnStrachan]

Just an observation… Mainline Protestant churches have been falling all over themselves to be relevant for decades and nothing has arrested the numerical decline in the number of adherents. They have: allowed clergy to marry, women to be ordained as deacons and later priests, allowed no-fault divorce and many have blessed same-sex marriages. They have lowered the bar for admission to their churches and the pews are emptying. Nothing trendy is bringing people back.

So I attend a RC service on the weekend (I normally worship at an Anglican church) and the numbers are impressive. The service is in French and the church is 75% full - on Canada Day weekend no less. The RC’s have remained steadfast in their doctrine, and people still come. I’m not suggesting that church attendance is not declining in the RC church - because it is. But they are not trying to lure people back to church with changes to doctrine what whatever might be hip and cool right now.

My chief observation is that Mainline Protestant churches here in Canada have gone out of their way to apologize to every group they may have offended over the course of history, they have watered down their teaching so it is not offensive to anyone, they have embraced inclusive language, removed any expectation of weekly attendance and, essentially, preach a doctrine that God loves everyone as they are and without expectation that they change. And the end result… no one cares.

So much for trying to be relevant.

 

[Genesis315]

And yet there are Catholic leaders who want to follow this failed path.

It’s true–a strong, clear, and confident proclamation of the whole truth (even the uncomfortable parts), a vigorous repudiation of error, and a strong discipline will drive people away and make the Church more hated by the world (the whole of which is seated in wickedness, as St. John says)…but it will also be an even stronger attraction to those of good will. And the latter are the only ones who will care about coming to church every Sunday anyway.

 

[JohnStrachan]

And yet there are Catholic leaders who want to follow this failed path.

James 4:4: “Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”

It is so true: the folly of worldliness. The more we try to be of the world, the more empty our relationship with God. So too with churches that have tried to be all things to all people. The result is an empty vessel.

 

[TheMortenBay]

I attend a RC service on the weekend (I normally worship at an Anglican church)

How’s your faith journey going, John? I think you joined this forum a few months before me, but I see you pop in every once in a while.
Great observations, btw. What do they mean to you?

 

[TheMortenBay]

And yet there are Catholic leaders who want to follow this failed path.

All that’s bad about Vatican II was basically a move in this failed direction. Don’t get me wrong, not everything about Vatican II was bad.

 

[JohnStrachan]

How’s your faith journey going, John? I think you joined this forum a few months before me, but I see you pop in every once in a while.
Great observations, btw. What do they mean to you?

My faith journey is an interesting one. When I left the RC church in 2008 is was because I had experienced some personal conflicts with people in the church. There were doctrine issues as well that I was frustrated with (married clergy, women in the church, communion for divorced Catholics, same-sex marriage) . Those frustrations will always be there. While they seemed to be enough to make me leave in 2008, I’m not so sure anymore. It’s not that the Anglican Church has done anything in particular to cause me to reconsider, it’s what they haven’t done. They lack clearly defined teaching on practically everything that falls outside of the creed.

Their ethos is “via media.” A middle way between Catholicism (in ritual, rite, sacrament and leadership) and Protestantism (reason as a source of authority, governance and lay engagement). It’s the reason bit that seems to open the door to permitting just about any interpretation (or non-interpretation) of scripture one sees fit.

The bar is so low in terms of personal commitment it seems.

 

[BartholomewB]

I’m sorry to say I know next to nothing about the churches in Canada. How are the newer Protestant and Pentecostal churches doing, such as the Assemblies of God, the Four Square Gospel, and others of that kind? Around the world, these seem to be the only ones that are growing and prospering.

 

[GordonP]

I’m not suggesting that church attendance is not declining in the RC church - because it is.

I find your observations a bit baffling. The Catholic Church in Quebec collapsed in a spectacular fashion, like a souffle, as they say. Attendance has declined precipitously, from once being one of the highest in the world, to about 5% for Catholics today.

Every other indicator confirms the staggering decline: the number of church marriages has plummeted, and the number of people identifying as Catholic has as well. And demographic figures indicate that the decline is far from over and will continue long into the foreseeable future.

And it’s hard to blame it on the Church being too “liberal”. The Church in Quebec was one of the most conservative Churches in the world, to the point of being repressive, and those who left did so primarily because of that reason.

Even today, about 40 parishes in Quebec are closed, and the Church is in desperate financial straits, and is selling off a lot of real estate just to keep the lights on in the rest.

Sorry, but your premise that churches lose members because they try to lure people back does not hold water, nor does your observation that the Catholic Church is thriving in Canada because it refuses to change.

I think you are making your conclusions based on a tiny and non-representative data set. A church filled to 75% of capacity would be a remarkable exception in a country where, about 20 years ago, average attendance was only 7 to 8 percent of capacity.

 

[ATraveller]

I’m sorry to say I know next to nothing about the churches in Canada. How are the newer Protestant and Pentecostal churches doing, such as the Assemblies of God, the Four Square Gospel, and others of that kind? Around the world, these seem to be the only ones that are growing and prospering.

Charismatics are faring much better in Canada than others.
There are a number of new Baptist church plants tied to the Southern Baptists in the US around where I live that are quite popular too. I like that they have a lot more people around my age but I’m not a fan of some (OK, a lot) of the contemporary worship music. And then there’s theology. I’m more high church I suppose.

 

[ltwin]

Didn’t the United Church of Canada make news a few years ago with the pastor who was an athiest who still wanted to pastor her church? And if memory serves, that denomination seemed to be ok with that.

I don’t think denominational decline can be squarely blamed on lowered standards, but it probably doesn’t help. If a church waters down the Gospel with a feel good mentality and denies any doctrinal absolutes, then eventually members will begin asking why is it necessary to belong to the church at all.

Another alternative reason for mainline decline (at least in the US) is that their main demographic (white middle and upper class people who tend to be older than the general population) are not having children. As the old folks die off, there is no younger generation to replace them.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

the Four Square Gospel,

It’s interesting that you bring this up, since they had a large Art Deco era church in my US hometown that was closed years ago and decayed so badly during the prolonged closure it couldn’t be saved and was torn down to build a shopping center. Wherever that church may be growing, it sure isn’t growing in my area.

 

[twf]

The Church in Quebec does not represent all of Canada.
The Church here in Vancouver has many packed parishes, mostly thanks to immigration (especially Filipinos). Our cathedral, which is quite traditional (lots of Latin, Chant, incense, use of the altar rail, etc) has 7 well attended Masses on Sunday and 4 each weekday.

 

[CTBcin]

Sorry, but your premise that churches lose members because they try to lure people back does not hold water, nor does your observation that the Catholic Church is thriving in Canada because it refuses to change.

I do agree with you that the Catholic Church is in pretty dire straights in Canada (and in many other places around the world). But I would also argue that the OP has a point in that trying to conform to the world isn’t going to keep you relevant either. I have heard that the Anglicans in Canada as well as the United Church of Canada are shrinking to oblivion.

Here in the US, the churches with the most staggering decline are the mainline Protestants, especially the denominations that have been on the most liberal end of social and moral issues. That’s not to say that the Catholic Church in America is doing particularly great either, and some of our losses have been offset by immigration.

 

[GordonP]

The Church here in Vancouver has many packed parishes, mostly thanks to immigration (especially Filipinos).

Good point, although the OP specified the Mass was in French.

It’s the same all over the Western world, from Vancouver to London to Sydney. When you see a booming congregation, it is usually due to one or more of these three factors:

Immigration: especially from Poland, the Philippines and Latin America.

Internal migration: In the US, from the rustbelt to the sunbelt.

Parish mergers due to parish closings. For example, my brother’s parish has grown considerably, in spite of the fact that it is in the Northeast, because it has absorbed four parishes that were closed, in a diocese where more than 90 parishes were closed at a fell swoop.

None of these represent real growth, though. They are just shuffling people who are already Catholic from one point to another, usually with some loss on the way.

But I would also argue that the OP has a point in that trying to conform to the world isn’t going to keep you relevant either.

And I would agree, to a point, if that’s where he stopped. But he went beyond that and concluded that refusing to conform to the world are booming, which is not the case.

Religious conservatives used to love to boast that their congregations were growing while those of liberal churches were shrinking fast. That is, until their numbers started tanking as well, which shot a hole in that theory. The reason they started tanking later probably has more to do with the geographical diffusion of cultural trends than to their religious conservatism.

Widespread loss of religion post-WWII is a phenomenon that almost all countries outside of sub-Sarahan Africa are facing. And it’s not only Catholics or Christians. Religiosity is plunging in most Muslim countries, too.

The reasons are hotly debated, though peace, financial stability and personal freedom undoubtedly play a role.

Countermeasures of various sorts have been proposed, with none having any practical success. They often make things worse. All the proposed “silver bullets” have been duds, so far.

In any case, whether they have changed to conform to the world or not, religious groups of all stripes are failing to adapt to the changing situation.

A lot of good minds are working on how to adapt, but no one has come up with anything yet besides managing the contraction and hope for better days.

As for me, I’m rather confident the Church will eventually survive. But not in its present form, which cannot survive in a world where the cultural and sociological significance of religion itself has so radically changed, and continues to change.

We have to accept the situation we are in and come up with creative solutions. I’m sure that we eventually will.

 

[JohnStrachan]

I find your observations a bit baffling. The Catholic Church in Quebec collapsed in a spectacular fashion, like a souffle, as they say. Attendance has declined precipitously, from once being one of the highest in the world, to about 5% for Catholics today.

You made an assumption that this French language church is in Quebec - it is Ontario.

I concur entirely with your observation about the RC church in Quebec. A wave of secularism washed over Quebec in the 60’s that smashed every institution that the church was involved in - schools, hospitals, clinics, orphanages, outreach ministries, etc. The close relationship between an ultramontaine church leadership and a quasi-fascist provincial government adversely impacted the role of the church in society. Once that government fell, so too did the church - seminaries and convents cleared out as did the pews.

That was not the experience of the French church outside of Quebec, where the church was a source of community engagement, identity and pride. In addition, the publicly funded French language Catholic school system acts as a feeder system to the churches - assisting in sacramental preparation and exposure to the faith. Albeit, it can appear that the French RC schools are luke warm in their support of Catholicism (as many are staffed with teachers from Quebec), at least their is exposure to religious education, prayer and the sacraments.

A wave of immigration from Catholic Africa in the last decade has helped boost church attendance. Many adherents from Rwanda, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Mozambique, Ivory Coast and Senegal have breathed life into churches that were experiencing obvious decline.

But my point is this, Mainline Protestants have endeavored to make themselves “seeker friendly” by reconciling every contentious issue to the point where it is unclear where they stand on anything. Outside the creed itself, it is hard to find the glue that binds. The Catholic church has an identity because it has held firm. You may not like it, and you are welcome to leave - and many do - but it has an identity and a level of expectation from its members. The RC church stands for something. As such, I suspect they will endure after many have died out.

 

[GordonP]

it is hard to find the glue that binds. The Catholic church has an identity because it has held firm.

Actually, the glue that binds Catholics together is getting harder to find, too. And there is a debate raging on at this moment what Catholic identity is exactly beyond self-identification and a shrinking number of common beliefs, teachings and practices.

The Catholic Church is becoming less and less monolithic. It is hard to find anything that an ultra-traditionalist Catholic and a very progressive Catholic have in common. Polarization has occurred, and fragmentation is sure to follow.

There are some who think that the Church of the future is going to be pluricentric, with different groups of Catholics having wildly divergent concepts of what it means to be Catholic, and how Catholicism should be lived and expressed. Some think that Catholicism will eventually divide into three movements, Traditionalist, Conservative and Progressive, reminiscent of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism.

I can see where they are coming from, but I think that the centrifugal forces at work are far too strong to allow such a neat outcome. The amount of anathemizing I see coming from the far-right wing of the Church does not instill me with hope of continuance as a single body under a single roof.

I don’t have any personal predictions of what the Church of the future is going to be like, but I am sure that it is going to be very, very different from what it is now, and I’m intellectually curious to see how things develop.

Also, this polarization is not unique to Catholicism. Other religions are experiencing it, too. Especially mainline Protestantism.

 

[HopkinsReb]

it is Ontario.

I’m going to Ontario tonight!

Carry on.

 

[AlmaRedemptorisMater]

I find I am in a similar position as you. I left a protest organization (seventh day adventism) that is losing members. The Catholic Church where I am is growing fairly rapidly with young people both single and married. Mostly in relatively conservative parishes as well as the TLM. There are underlying Catholic principles and people are attracted to that in a constantly shifting world.

 

[ATraveller]

Didn’t the United Church of Canada make news a few years ago with the pastor who was an athiest who still wanted to pastor her church? And if memory serves, that denomination seemed to be ok with that.

[Gretta Vosper], who would be considered a heretic in any other denomination and likely dumped out on her ear, is tolerated in some quarters of the United Church, even to the point of enthusiasm.

She’s not the only one (emphases mine).

In 1997, then-moderator Bill Phipps, said the divinity of Jesus and the reality of heaven and hell were irrelevant.

“I don’t believe Jesus was God, but I’m no theologian,” Rev. Phipps said at the time.

In 2008, then-moderator David Giuliano […] suggested the term Christian was outdated.

The split in the United Church | National Post

Someone I know considered joining the UCC but the local pastor said there’s no need for the Resurrection so the UCC became a no-go denomination for him.

I don’t think denominational decline can be squarely blamed on lowered standards, but it probably doesn’t help. If a church waters down the Gospel with a feel good mentality and denies any doctrinal absolutes, then eventually members will begin asking why is it necessary to belong to the church at all.

It definitely plays a role.

But now I read of the innovative Rev. Gretta Vosper, a minister of the United Church of Canada (UCC) who preaches … atheism! Vosper has turned her Toronto UCC congregation into an inclusive club full of songs, poetry and chat about ethics and politics. I say “inclusive” although, according to the Globe and Mail, something like two-thirds of the 150 parishioners have left West Hill United Church on the reverend’s watch. You need not go there expecting to pray anymore, but you may hear the spiritual leader of the congregation say, “I am a negative atheist, which means I see no proof for the god called God or any other gods.”
Colby Cosh: The heretical minister to help her flock evolve out of the need for church | National Post

 

[ATraveller]

But my point is this, Mainline Protestants have endeavored to make themselves “seeker friendly” by reconciling every contentious issue to the point where it is unclear where they stand on anything. Outside the creed itself, it is hard to find the glue that binds.

Some of them don’t even believe in the Creeds. Those are the bare minimum to be called a Christian in the first place.