Church attire (all kinds)

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Great, so if the mass is special then what do you have against modest dress? Do you believe that form fitting, tight clothing isn’t a problem? Even if it is not in miniskirt format?

From memory, I don’t think I can recall anyone wearing either form-fitting or tight clothing to Mass. Then again, I don’t take a notepad with me to Mass to count who is wearing what.

Most Catholics who attend Mass regularly are respectable people. It’s insulting to even contemplate some kind of grand conspiracy where a group of Catholics band together to lead others into scandal. It doesn’t happen. Yes, you might find 1 or 2 people who wear immodest clothing, but that’s statistically insignificant - that doesn’t warrant threads upon threads and rants upon rants about the supposed moral precipice which society has supposedly fallen over.

Let’s be perfectly honest with ourselves. No one who starts a thread about modesty is arguing against miniskirts, tight clothing or form-fitting clothing. No. Rather, what they are arguing is for a return to the days where women were forced to wear tissues on their head if they forgot their chapel veil or mantilla. Fortunately, many of us live in the 21st century where such customs have been seen for what they truly are - a law instituted by Man rather than a law instituted by God.

Does it occur to you that what you look like reflects what is on the inside? What if I were to show up to Mass straight off the beach in a tank and swim shorts? Or even short sleeves and shorts?

Not necessarily. Clothing is influenced more by one’s income and one’s cultural upbringing than the faith they have in God. And your assertion leads us to question: Upon what authority do you have to make an inference of someone’s state of heart from the pieces of cloth they put on their back?

We should prepare our selves for our encouter with the Lord… If I do as I state above, then am I not turning Mass attendance into a dead work?

You prepare yourself for Mass by going to Confession and ensuring you are in a state of grace. That’s why across the world, Confession is generally held on Saturday evening - as a way to ensure that you’ll be ready to receive Communion free of sin and “blameless before the LORD” (Deuteronomy 18:13). Again, Scripture is all about improving your heart, and not your sense in fashion.

 

[Walking_Home]

Like I said earlier, I would consider what St. Pio said with some weight… He wasn’t exactly a nobody in Gods eyes. You are correct though, perhaps St. Pio was wrong… But let me ask, in what way? You call this extremism?

What do you call my suggestion that men should consider going so far as wearing a nice sport jacket and tie to Mass? Is that more extremism? Would you argue this point as passionately?

I’m also curious how it is extremism to make these points? What is it do you think advocates of modisty are suggesting? Certainly we’re not trying to undo anyone’s rights, or anything of that nature. Rather, it is an observation that a meeting with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is frankly, a more important meeting than you could have with any living person including the President of the United States.

Think about your arguments, would you make the same arguements if someone said “I’m going into a one on one meeting with President Obama, what should I wear?”. Why would you advocate a less strict dress code for the Mass?

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Let me tell you the experience my brother had. Years back he got a job transfer – and started attending the church closest to his home. He wore pretty much what you describe–the sports jacket–and guess what–the men were into wearing suits. Lets just say the looks he got were not quite welcoming—so he ended looking and finding another church.

 

[crazzeto]

I do not really believe any men and women dress in any manner at mass so as to tempt anyone.

If that is what you see in your parish, then terrific. But can you understand the problem of form fitting clothing? Even when it’s very expensive, very fine clothing… Can you see how Sheer materials (for women in particular) are such a problem?

The problem is this, modern dress is typically designed to accentuate the body. In many cases it’s deisgned to show off curves, or muscles or whatever in various ways. The worst of these we seem to agree upon. Very short shorts (that don’t even fully cover the butt), short skirts etc. Yes, I think we have an agreement here.

But what about clothing desgined to still show your curves? What about shirts designed to allow others to see what is underneith (even when woman think to put more than just a bra under there, which in my expereince isn’t always the case). What about the problem of partially exposed boobs (i.e. various amounts of clevage).

The problem is, we don’t think twice about this. We could look at someone dressed (really) wildly inappropriately for Mass. Yet think “how elegant”.

 

[crazzeto]

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Let me tell you the experience my brother had. Years back he got a job transfer – and started attending the church closest to his home. He wore pretty much what you describe–the sports jacket–and guess what–the men were into wearing suits. Lets just say the looks he got were not quite welcoming—so he ended looking and finding another church.

-]I would also find another parish…/-]

Perhaps I didn’t understand… Is it that your brother wore a sports jacket, and the rest of the parishiners wores suites? Or is it that everyone was uper casual, and your brother was far more dessed up?

 

[frenchbeatle]

If I can throw in my two cents about the St. Padre Pio quote about not allowing any woman for confession wearing a dress 8 inches from the knee…

Whenever I see this mnetioned (it has come up in these threads before), I always wonder how he knew what the person was wearing. Isn’t confession usually behind a screen? Unless the person chose a face-to-face confession, he would have no idea what they were wearing. Also, I think turning someone away from an important sacrament like confession because he thought their dress was too short is not really a good thing. Which is not to say that I don’t respect or like Padre Pio; I do, but no one is ever 100% right all the time. We’re all human.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

If I can throw in my two cents about the St. Padre Pio quote about not allowing any woman for confession wearing a dress 8 inches from the knee…

Whenever I see this mnetioned (it has come up in these threads before), I always wonder how he knew what the person was wearing. Isn’t confession usually behind a screen? Unless the person chose a face-to-face confession, he would have no idea what they were wearing. Also, I think turning someone away from an important sacrament like confession because he thought their dress was too short is not really a good thing. Which is not to say that I don’t respect or like Padre Pio; I do, but no one is ever 100% right all the time. We’re all human.

There are a lot of myths on the internet about St. Padre Pio. Not everything you read about him on the internet is true.

 

[frenchbeatle]

There are a lot of myths on the internet about St. Padre Pio. Not everything you read about him on the internet is true.

Hmm, methinks that unless there is some evidence about this practice of his, then maybe it should not be brought up in these kinds of discussions.

 

[Walking_Home]

-]I would also find another parish…/-]

Perhaps I didn’t understand… Is it that your brother wore a sports jacket, and the rest of the parishiners wores suites? Or is it that everyone was uper casual, and your brother was far more dessed up?

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Yes–to the bold above.

 

[crazzeto]

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Yes–to the bold above.

Well the, the strike out would depend upon the attitudes and orthodoxy of the parish as a whole. I wouldn’t attend any parish which was hostile towards greater modesty and reverence. The sports jacket suggestion was, however, one off the cuff suggestion, the same can be acheived with a suite. So the next question is, why must it be a suite. Whether I attend or not would depend upon this in part.

No one is suggesting there should be Mass uniforms… But a personal dress code in keeping with the stark realization that when we are going to Mass we are going to a one on one encounter with someone greater than any earthly ruler should be advised by the layity.

Not that you must do so… But doesn’t it make sense?

 

[MissRose73]

I would have no issue with having in a bag a long skirt and wrap to cover up with if I was ever lucky enough to go to the Vatican churches and/or many of ones in Rome even if it was a hot summer day. I sometimes wish that dress code would be in more places as it is more respectful to God’s House. I am not asking for full dressing up like the 1950’s but at the same time, people are simply showing up dressed too casual for Mass like its too much to wear something that is better for the backyard garden or a pool.

I know not to go to any Mass revealing my cleavage in a tight shirt and a short skirt. I wear a head cover of some kind (personal choice), and dress in a nice yet modest shirt and long skirt or pants that are not “painted” on or a nice dress.

 

[Dan_Daly]

There are a lot of myths on the internet about St. Padre Pio. Not everything you read about him on the internet is true.

As with what you read about almost anyone on the internet. Of course when it comes to St. Padre Pio the TRUTH is stranger then fiction as they say.

St. Padre Pio pray for us.

Pax.

 

[Walking_Home]

Well the, the strike out would depend upon the attitudes and orthodoxy of the parish as a whole. I wouldn’t attend any parish which was hostile towards greater modesty and reverence. The sports jacket suggestion was, however, one off the cuff suggestion, the same can be acheived with a suite. So the next question is, why must it be a suite. Whether I attend or not would depend upon this in part.

No one is suggesting there should be Mass uniforms… But a personal dress code in keeping with the stark realization that when we are going to Mass we are going to a one on one encounter with someone greater than any earthly ruler should be advised by the layity.

Not that you must do so… But doesn’t it make sense?

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Why must it be a suit–at that church–it became the thing to wear and anyone not following along --was made to feel out of place. The same can be said–when the “modesty” issue is pushed to where short sleeves/knee length–are seen out of place–out of step with “modesty”.

 

[crazzeto]

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Why must it be a suit–at that church–it became the thing to wear and anyone not following along --was made to feel out of place. The same can be said–when the “modesty” issue is pushed to where short sleeves/knee length–are seen out of place–out of step with “modesty”.

So you’re ok then, with immodest dress for the sake of making people feel welcome? But where does this place the greatest importance? On the Lord? That doesn’t seem to be the case to me… This places the emphisis on the lay beleiver individually. Whatever the lay believer wants goes, they have primacy.

Should the Lord not have primacy?

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Why must it be a suit–at that church–it became the thing to wear and anyone not following along --was made to feel out of place. The same can be said–when the “modesty” issue is pushed to where short sleeves/knee length–are seen out of place–out of step with “modesty”.

So you’re ok then, with immodest dress for the sake of making people feel welcome? But where does this place the greatest importance? On the Lord? That doesn’t seem to be the case to me… This places the emphisis on the lay beleiver individually. Whatever the lay believer wants goes, they have primacy.

Should the Lord not have primacy?

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Where did you get --I am saying immodest dress is ok at Mass.

 

[Dan_Daly]

If your wife, mother, sister or daughter felt that she should only wear sleeves that were to the elbow or longer, because she thought it was pleasing to God for her to do so, would you counsel her that she was “too modest” and should wear shorter sleeves?

As I said earlier, we are all at different points on our journey of developing the various virtues. 1/4 length sleeves and knee length skirts might be a huge step toward greater modesty for one person. They would be a huge step backwards into immodesty for someone else. No one is advocating holding people down and physically forcing them to wear modest clothing. Modesty is not just physical, and forcing someone to wear particular clothes strips the act of any charity (speaking of adults here, parents can and should enforce appropriate dress for their children).

What people are talking about is working for a greater conversion of heart in ALL of us, through prayer, learning, and fellowship.

To comment again on the “get with the times” argument that clothes which are modest based on the society we live in are modest enough…

What is so special about the time we live in? As “strange” as what advocates of modesty want may seem in today’s age, the “normal” of today would have appeared just as bizarre in our society say 80 years ago. Why is today’s standard correct and that of 80 years ago is not worth even considering? When we look at the problems in our culture and our Church, it may be worth looking back to the past, both recent and more distant, for guidance on this and many other issues.

One more point- some have argued that pointing out immodest dress is “demeaning to women”. A few things, men and women both can and do dress immodestly. Most women are more prone because of their interest in clothes and fashion, and the effect of women dressing immodestly is greater because most men are more influenced by the visual then men are.

THAT BEING SAID:

The problem with WOMEN dressing immodestly is not primarily the fault of women. It is primarily the fault of MEN who have failed as the protectors of their wives, daughters, and neighbors.

 

[Walking_Home]

**If your wife, mother, sister or daughter felt that she should only wear sleeves that were to the elbow or longer, because she thought it was pleasing to God for her to do so, would you counsel her that she was “too modest” and should wear shorter sleeves? **

As I said earlier, we are all at different points on our journey of developing the various virtues. 1/4 length sleeves and knee length skirts might be a huge step toward greater modesty for one person. They would be a huge step backwards into immodesty for someone else. No one is advocating holding people down and physically forcing them to wear modest clothing. Modesty is not just physical, and forcing someone to wear particular clothes strips the act of any charity (speaking of adults here, parents can and should enforce appropriate dress for their children).

What people are talking about is working for a greater conversion of heart in ALL of us, through prayer, learning, and fellowship.

To comment again on the “get with the times” argument that clothes which are modest based on the society we live in are modest enough…

What is so special about the time we live in? As “strange” as what advocates of modesty want may seem in today’s age, the “normal” of today would have appeared just as bizarre in our society say 80 years ago. Why is today’s standard correct and that of 80 years ago is not worth even considering? When we look at the problems in our culture and our Church, it may be worth looking back to the past, both recent and more distant, for guidance on this and many other issues.

One more point- some have argued that pointing out immodest dress is “demeaning to women”. A few things, men and women both can and do dress immodestly. Most women are more prone because of their interest in clothes and fashion, and the effect of women dressing immodestly is greater because most men are more influenced by the visual then men are.

THAT BEING SAID:

The problem with WOMEN dressing immodestly is not primarily the fault of women. It is primarily the fault of MEN who have failed as the protectors of their wives, daughters, and neighbors.

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Burkas—yea --that would solve all the “modesty” issues. Why not just go all the way–cover heads and faces–you know --some men may find the hair and faces to enticing.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The Burka is imposed by force in most places where it is worn.

You didn’t answer the question I asked which was about sleeve length and a woman who chose to wear longer sleeves because SHE thought it was pleasing to God.

Do you find that as offensive as a woman physically forced to wear a burka?

If you don’t like St. Padre Pio, Venerable Maria del Carmen Gonzales-Valerio provides another holy example of modesty to follow:

Maria Carmen distinguishes herself by her sense of modesty, practiced even in details. Her mother relates: “One day, Maria Carmen was to go to a birthday party with other children. I had put on her a little sleeveless low-necked dress, and told her not to crease it. But I realized that she had put a jacket over it. I became angry and scolded her. She said to me, crying, that she would not go out with this dress. My mother, who witnessed the scene, took me aside and told me that I had not the right to suppress her God-given sense of modesty, and that I would be accountable to God for the education that I gave to her. So Maria Carmen went to the party with her jacket on.”

The grandmother was right: the sense of modesty comes from God. On December 8, 1995, the Pontifical Council for the Family wrote, in an instruction against certain shameless trends spread in today’s society:

“Even if they are socially accepted, there are ways of talking and dressing that are morally wrong… Parents must therefore teach their children the value of Christian modesty, to dress in a sober way, to learn not to feel obliged to follow fashions – all of that being the characteristics of a mature personality.”

If you are unaware of this girl’s life, please read the following and be inspired. If you are aware read it again and be inspired some more.

Venerable Maria Carmen pray for us.

Pax.

michaeljournal.org/carmen.htm

 

[crazzeto]

The same can be said–when the “modesty” issue is pushed to where short sleeves/knee length–are seen out of place–out of step with “modesty”.

If the dress is not modest, then what is it?

 

[Walking_Home]

The Burka is imposed by force in most places where it is worn.

You didn’t answer the question I asked which was about sleeve length and a woman who chose to wear longer sleeves because SHE thought it was pleasing to God.

Do you find that as offensive as a woman physically forced to wear a burka?

If you don’t like St. Padre Pio, Venerable Maria del Carmen Gonzales-Valerio provides another holy example of modesty to follow:

If you are unaware of this girl’s life, please read the following and be inspired. If you are aware read it again and be inspired some more.

Venerable Maria Carmen pray for us.

Pax.

michaeljournal.org/carmen.htm

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The Church today does not make the requirements that your type are imposing on women.

 

[crazzeto]

Incidently, I while immodest dress gets all the focus, I really would like some questions answered.

Like would those possing those who advocate nicer modest dress advocate the same thing when someone is meeting the president of the company they work at? Or of the nation? What if they were meeting the King or sovergin ruler of a forgine nation, would you still advocate so strongly for casual dress immodest or otherwise?

Is Jesus less than these people? Or are we not really encountering him in the Mass?

Edit
Again, if there is a sense that modesty somehow violates “rights” in anyway… I would suggest we think again… Modesty in the Mass is not a commentary on the the relitive position of people in society. Rather, the Mass has always been viewed as a far more democratic affair, because Kings and Servents kneel equally while it is running. We are all equal in the Mass, because we are all equal in the sight of the Lord.

So modern senses of equality aside, what is the real objection to nice, modest dress?