Church attire (all kinds)

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

The same can be said–when the “modesty” issue is pushed to where short sleeves/knee length–are seen out of place–out of step with “modesty”.

If the dress is not modest, then what is it?

That would depend wouldn’t it. Some consider anything less than ankle length/long sleeves/baggy “immodest”.

 

[crazzeto]

That would depend wouldn’t it. Some consider anything less than ankle length/long sleeves/baggy “immodest”.

Ok, but it’s a little too easy to try and suggest it’s all relitive anyway isn’t it? This is why it’s good for us to follow good objective dress standards. Which have been provided by the Church historically, and continue being provided at the Diocese and parish level. This typically in my experience is the same level being suggested by CAF posters here, other than some formality suggestions some (like me) also advocate.

So what’s your problem with this?

 

[Walking_Home]

Ok, but it’s a little too easy to try and suggest it’s all relitive anyway isn’t it? This is why it’s good for us to follow good objective dress standards. Which have been provided by the Church historically, and continue being provided at the Diocese and parish level. This typically in my experience is the same level being suggested by CAF posters here, other than some formality suggestions some (like me) also advocate.

So what’s your problem with this?

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The Church today–is Not–imposing those standards from the past—which is why you were not able to provide evidence that the 8 inch below the knee standard was in place in the diocese of Rome.

 

[crazzeto]

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The Church today–is Not–imposing those standards from the past—which is why you were not able to provide evidence that the 8 inch below the knee standard was in place in the diocese of Rome.

I don’t think anyone has argued that the church (outside of Rome, which we know enforces dress codes) is making mandates. The discussion is about what you should be doing when you go to the Mass. I think you will find the Bishops hardly advocate shorts, of any kind… In fact, I think you will find that most pastors and Bishops would urge (though yes, not mandate) more modest, and formal dress.

Personally, I would happy to see it transform back into something more of a mandate.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t think anyone has argued that the church (outside of Rome, which we know enforces dress codes) is making mandates. The discussion is about what you should be doing when you go to the Mass. I think you will find the Bishops hardly advocate shorts, of any kind… In fact, I think you will find that most pastors and Bishops would urge (though yes, not mandate) more modest, and formal dress.

Personally, I would happy to see it transform back into something more of a mandate.

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It cannot be denied that some people are using the past as a form of mandate.

 

[severus68]

I don’t think anyone has argued that the church (outside of Rome, which we know enforces dress codes) is making mandates. The discussion is about what you should be doing when you go to the Mass. I think you will find the Bishops hardly advocate shorts, of any kind… In fact, I think you will find that most pastors and Bishops would urge (though yes, not mandate) more modest, and formal dress.

Personally, I would happy to see it transform back into something more of a mandate.

So men should wear suits and women, full length. long sleeved dresses with white gloves and hats/veils? What about African Catholics in the Congo?

So it all will become a big farce with the policing of dress, the emphasis on the outside, and time spent on the externals rather than self examination and prayer. When do we start with the “Scarlet Letters”?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Have you talked to him about his dress? Since he is sincere in his faith, he may be open to considering that his dress is innappropriate. If he went to a wedding or a business dinner or some other “dress up” occasion, would he dress up? Why? If he would, why are those occasions more special or more deserving of his effort and attention to dress then worshiping the Ever Living God in the Eucharist?

I am not questioning what you said at all about the sincerity of his faith. However, even with a very sincere faith, his dress may be sending an different message to those around him, and thus leading them to a less reverant view of the Blessed Sacrament.

No…nor do I plan to because I see nothing wrong with it. The shorts are always well pressed…below the knee and the shirt is either a polo or a button up polo. And as I see others in some of the same attire at Mass, why would I? He wore a suit to his confirmation because that occasion called for it.

And if he went to a nice dinner…yes…he probably would wear shorts. It’s not for me to judge him. I dress in what I’m going to wear (and no one needs to see me in shorts:dts but I may have dockers (full length) and a blouse on. But as far as the “form fitting” clothing that some posters talk about…I’m a curvy girl…I’m not looking to highlight that…but I honetly could wear a tent and some portions of it would be highlighted:blush:

I just don’t get how people put one level on immodesty…see through, muffin tops, mini-skirts…yes…all a bad idea…duh…don’t we all know that now… But the people wearing those things are typically not on here.

But when someone tells me I’m immodest because I don’t wear a skirt and I wear short sleeves…SERIOUSLY? Or heaven forbid because I wear jeans to Friday afternoon Mass because that is what I wore to work:shrug: Then there is a problem.

 

[CMatt25]

No…nor do I plan to because I see nothing wrong with it. The shorts are always well pressed…below the knee and the shirt is either a polo or a button up polo. And as I see others in some of the same attire at Mass, why would I?

Annabelle Marie, if you don’t wear pantyhose due to allergies and wear pants and short sleeves, and your husband wears shorts with a polo, along with others being at Mass in the same attire as your husband, am I safe to assume neither your priest nor your bishop has a problem with any of those things? And your bishop is considered by the Church to be an Apostolic successor and a member of the Catholic hierarchy, right?

 

[Dan_Daly]

No…nor do I plan to because I see nothing wrong with it. The shorts are always well pressed…below the knee and the shirt is either a polo or a button up polo. And as I see others in some of the same attire at Mass, why would I? He wore a suit to his confirmation because that occasion called for it.

You state it’s not for someone to judge what others are wearing, but you also make the judgement that there is no reason for your husband to dress differently because of what others are wearing. Perhaps one of the other men in shorts is considering more modest attire, but is justifying not changing by seeing what your husband is wearing. You clearly made the point many of us have been trying to make- dress is not a simple “you and God” thing that doesn’t matter to anyone else. How we dress impacts the thoughts and actions of those around us.

Pax

 

[crazzeto]

I’m honestly mystified as to how the concept of offering the Lord your personal best at Mass is so scandalous to so many. For most of us, our personal best is dressing up very nicely, with our best clothing. For some, they don’t have the economic resources to have nice clothing to being with, and then there is no shame in them coming with what they have.

But I find it sad that we want to democratize our own personal dress. Out of what? To make our selves happy? I want to know, and I have asked at least twice before… What argument can people bring against dressing their best for the Lord. And for those of you who argue against this, would you argue the same if the meeting was with a head of state for instance? Or even just the president of your company?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You state it’s not for someone to judge what others are wearing, but you also make the judgement that there is no reason for your husband to dress differently because of what others are wearing. Perhaps one of the other men in shorts is considering more modest attire, but is justifying not changing by seeing what your husband is wearing. You clearly made the point many of us have been trying to make- dress is not a simple “you and God” thing that doesn’t matter to anyone else. How we dress impacts the thoughts and actions of those around us.

Pax

What it shows is that if I was to talk to him about wearing a suit-he would stand out and be calling attention to himself…which is also something to consider…no?

 

[crazzeto]

What it shows is that if I was to talk to him about wearing a suit-he would stand out and be calling attention to himself…which is also something to consider…no?

Some times a better witness is actually a good thing… Beleive it or not, the Saints frequently “called attention to them selves”, though not for their own sakes but rather for the sake of the Lord. So if called to greater modesty, and respect for the Mass and the institution of the Holy Sacrafice your husband dresses up and happens to call attention to him self because everyone else is in shorts… This is not self seeking, this is a witness to the reverence we should have at worship.

 

[CMatt25]

I’m honestly mystified as to how the concept of offering the Lord your personal best at Mass is so scandalous to so many. For most of us, our personal best is dressing up very nicely, with our best clothing. For some, they don’t have the economic resources to have nice clothing to being with, and then there is no shame in them coming with what they have.

But I find it sad that we want to democratize our own personal dress. Out of what? To make our selves happy? I want to know, and I have asked at least twice before… What argument can people bring against dressing their best for the Lord. And for those of you who argue against this, would you argue the same if the meeting was with a head of state for instance? Or even just the president of your company?

I don’t think I’ve seen a soul here arguing it is scandalous if your personal best is how you choose to dress. But I do see others arguing, though they admit they do not know the heart, that they still have the impression someone dressed more casually is not reverant.

An Episcopalian priest once told me, “We have everything from shorts to ties and dresses. Come as you are comfortable. No one cares how you are dressed on the outside. ** It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters**”.

Perhaps trying to look beyond the outside might be beneficial to all of us who call ourselves Christian?

As far as your questions about meeting heads of states or company presidents, again I don’t place secular expectations upon our Lord. I simply do not believe our Lord cares if we follow Him in sandals, or in shorts, in short sleeves or long, men in ties or not, women in dresses 5, 8, or how ever many inches below the knee, or in pants.

He only hopes we will follow Him.

Peace.

 

[severus68]

I don’t think I’ve seen a soul here arguing it is scandalous if your personal best is how you choose to dress. But I do see others arguing, though they admit they do not know the heart, that they still have the impression someone dressed more casually is not reverant.

An Episcopalian priest once told me, “We have everything from shorts to ties and dresses. Come as you are comfortable. No one cares how you are dressed on the outside. ** It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters**”.

Perhaps trying to look beyond the outside might be beneficial to all of us who call ourselves Christian?

As far as your questions about meeting heads of states or company presidents, again I don’t place secular expectations upon our Lord. I simply do not believe our Lord cares if we follow Him in sandals, or in shorts, in short sleeves or long, men in ties or not, women in dresses 5, 8, or how ever many inches below the knee, or in pants.

He only hopes we will follow Him.

Peace.

Well put.

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t think I’ve seen a soul here arguing it is scandalous if your personal best is how you choose to dress. But I do see others arguing, though they admit they do not know the heart, that they still have the impression someone dressed more casually is not reverant.

No, I haven’t seen any person argue as you put it… But I have seen many scandalized very clearly… Therefor, modesty must be scandalous for people to be so scandlized.

 

[crazzeto]

An Episcopalian priest once told me, “We have everything from shorts to ties and dresses. Come as you are comfortable. No one cares how you are dressed on the outside. ** It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters**”.

Perhaps trying to look beyond the outside might be beneficial to all of us who call ourselves Christian?

As far as your questions about meeting heads of states or company presidents, again I don’t place secular expectations upon our Lord. I simply do not believe our Lord cares if we follow Him in sandals, or in shorts, in short sleeves or long, men in ties or not, women in dresses 5, 8, or how ever many inches below the knee, or in pants.

He only hopes we will follow Him.

Peace.

That’s a very nice sentament, the problem is it just isn’t reality. What we do on the outside, reflects what is going on on the inside. That’s just the way things are. If I show up to a formal dinner dressed in shorts and a tank, obviously I’m making a clear statement that I could care less about this event, and indeed I must not care to be so ill-prepared for it.

How do you argue this is any different with the Mass and our encounter with Christ?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t think I’ve seen a soul here arguing it is scandalous if your personal best is how you choose to dress. But I do see others arguing, though they admit they do not know the heart, that they still have the impression someone dressed more casually is not reverant.

An Episcopalian priest once told me, “We have everything from shorts to ties and dresses. Come as you are comfortable. No one cares how you are dressed on the outside. It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters”.

Perhaps trying to look beyond the outside might be beneficial to all of us who call ourselves Christian?

As far as your questions about meeting heads of states or company presidents, again I don’t place secular expectations upon our Lord. I simply do not believe our Lord cares if we follow Him in sandals, or in shorts, in short sleeves or long, men in ties or not, women in dresses 5, 8, or how ever many inches below the knee, or in pants.

He only hopes we will follow Him.

Peace.

Matt, this quote from the priest (which I’m going to put out here clearly), represents the real nature of the problem we have in discussing the topic.

No one cares how you are dressed on the outside. It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters".

The problem is this priest (probably a very nice man) has in essence turned out a false dichotomy, an artificial ‘either-or’ situation.

See the problem? “how you are dressed on the outside” becomes totally divorced from ‘how you open your hearts to God on the inside.’

Which is ridiculous. Until our current crazy society got so ‘down’ with dressing down, all civilized societies (and even the prehistorical ones by all the evidence we have) **understood that outward appearance and inward appearance are mutually entwined, NOT in opposition to each other! **

The idea that any consideration of dress at all (itself a falsely egalitarian ‘dig’ at what the collective deems 'too fancy) is completely separate, and totally unworthy as COMPARED TO ‘opening our hearts to God’ is blatant propaganda designed to obliterate any kind of sense of the sacred or ‘special’ in favor of a laissez-faire 'do what you want society.

A lot of people have been, whether they realize it or not, ‘conditioned’ to the idea that real ‘sincerity’ and ‘genuineness’ and ‘good vibrations’ rest solely on FEELING. "opening hearts to God’ is based on this play to the emotions.

Even the opposition to any type of marking an occasion with more formal clothing is pretty often based on FEELING. "I feel uncomfortable.’ “I feel I don’t have to.” “I’d feel judged.” I, I, I and feel, feel, feel, and EMOTIONS, emotions, emotions. . .never a rebuttal that does NOT address ‘the individual’, the ‘feelings’, and appeals to emotion.

Now I’m not going to argue that in Virginia when it’s heat index of 115 it isn’t a bit uncomfortable to wear a longer sleeved outfit instead of a halter top. And I’m not going to state that there is no place whatsoever for modest pants on women, or even pressed shorts at knee length or below for men or the ‘split skirts’ for women.

But I will argue that attempting to portray one’s outward appearance as being inimical to the ‘real opening of the heart’ or attempting to indict those looking to regenerating a sense of the sacred as being the fashion police or mindless snobs is not going to engender any real dialogue.

Only when we acknowledge that **outward and inward appearance are meant to foster and support each other **will we see any real progress. This ‘splitting’ the two as if they are antithetical to each other or unrelated to each other is the true problem IMO.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t think I’ve seen a soul here arguing it is scandalous if your personal best is how you choose to dress. But I do see others arguing, though they admit they do not know the heart, that they still have the impression someone dressed more casually is not reverant.

Peace.

Clearly people are scandalized by the sight of my hubands legs showing below the knee…and by the sight of my bare arms

Why would I not dress the best I possibly could for the Lord at Mass some people ask? Hmmm…cause I go to Mass 7 days a week…I don’t have any “best” clothes. Apparently according to some people I need to go out and buy and entire wardrobe of skirts…except then someone would think that my bare arms are immodest…ok…cover those up…hmmm…excuse me but you have more then two fingers between the dip of your throat and your blouse…ok…replace those…see…it never ends:shrug:

I don’t know what other people do at Mass…but I’m there to worship…not watch the fashion parade or to judge my fellow brothers and sisters. As for my husband…you know what…I pray every day for God to make us more holy…so I’ll let Him and the Holy Spirit decide what that is…not some unknown poster on CAF:shrug:

 

[crazzeto]

Clearly people are scandalized by the sight of my hubands legs showing below the knee…and by the sight of my bare arms

Why would I not dress the best I possibly could for the Lord at Mass some people ask? Hmmm…cause I go to Mass 7 days a week…I don’t have any “best” clothes. Apparently according to some people I need to go out and buy and entire wardrobe of skirts…except then someone would think that my bare arms are immodest…ok…cover those up…hmmm…excuse me but you have more then two fingers between the dip of your throat and your blouse…ok…replace those…see…it never ends:shrug:

I don’t know what other people do at Mass…but I’m there to worship…not watch the fashion parade or to judge my fellow brothers and sisters. As for my husband…you know what…I pray every day for God to make us more holy…so I’ll let Him and the Holy Spirit decide what that is…not some unknown poster on CAF:shrug:

You have no nice clothing? What do you wear to a wedding?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

You have no nice clothing? What do you wear to a wedding?

I haven’t been to a wedding…well since 2005…and I wore slacks/dockers and a shirt. Before 2005…haven’t been since my own in 1988… Plus…am I going to wear that EVERY day?