Church Authority and the Amazon Controversy

[Willing_Spirit]

God gave us the Church as authority on Earth. We are called to trust the clergy. Any wrong done by instruction of the clergy are the clergy’s sins. I think anyone that feels called to speak for God, should perhaps consider the religious vocation. We should not be condoning stealing.

We seem to be passing judgement and forming our own interpretations like Protestants on matters we weren’t even present for. It is said that the truth is so prevalent, many religions contain part of it. The Amazons have a respect for life which is great, but they misdirected praise to a false goddess.

Perhaps upon learning of Mary they redirected old symbols of devotion to her. It is reported that the Amazons presented the statues as their own culture’s depiction of Mary. The Church has said that they are just symbols of life, so why is the laity condemning them as idols? We kneel and pray before statues because of what they represent. We use statues of Mary in ceremonies, crowning her with flowers and adorning her in a cloak as a symbol that she is Queen. We kiss the cross in veneration. Why is the laity condemning a ceremony and statues rather than trusting the Church?

 

[Fauken]

I think anyone that feels called to speak for God, should perhaps consider the religious vocation.

So lay people should just shut up? We can’t speak for God? We have to wait for a member of the clergy to do anything, even when those clergy act in ways that aren’t right? That just sounds like clericalism.

It is reported that the Amazons presented the statues as their own culture’s depiction of Mary.

There is no “Our Lady of the Amazon”.

The Church has said that they are just symbols of life

Which is what, exactly? What is life? Where in the Catechism does it say we can venerate symbols of vague ideas? There are three types of veneration, to God, to Mary, and to the Saints. Those idols and “life” fit none of those categories.

We kneel and pray before statues because of what they represent. We use statues of Mary in ceremonies, crowning her with flowers and adorning her in a cloak as a symbol that she is Queen.

And they clearly represent Mary, not “life”, whatever that is.

Why is the laity condemning a ceremony and statues rather than trusting the Church?

The Church did not say it’s okay. Clergy did, who are not the infallible Bride of Christ.

 

[Bataar]

Jesus said, “I am the life.” Those statues certainly don’t look anything like Jesus.

 

[DeSales111]

Exactly Fauken! There is a difference between veneration and worship. We venerate what has existed, the Mother of God, Apostles, and the Saints, while they are worshipping false idols. Our worship is to God alone.

 

[Genesis315]

Not sure where you’ve been for the past few decades, but blind trust in the wisdom of the clergy hasn’t really worked out all that well. Our leaders have pretty much burned through whatever trust they could have been given when it comes to decisions resting on human wisdom.

Anyway, modern clergy are always talking about how bad such clericalism is and how laity need to be empowered more and have more of a voice, and be listened to, so I would think they would support such things–should we trust them to mean what they say in that case?

If the clergy running this synod and participating in these scandalous rites had actually any fruits to show for their methods, then you might have a point. But these are the same guys who have presided over the Church in their region hemorrhaging members to the Protestants while they baptize pretty much no one.

It also bears pointing out, some clergy are opposing these things as well. Which ones do we trust?

In general, we trust in the bishops insofar as as a body the Holy Spirit ensures Tradition will be handed through their college until the end. That doesn’t mean each individual or even large groups will do so. They also have authority and a duty to teach, but like any teacher, they do not have authority to teach or do whatever they want.

 

[Willing_Spirit]

What you say makes sense, but I still think what was done is wrong. Undermining the authority God established is undermining God. Concerns should be voiced to the leadership and they will hold the debates assessing if something is inappropriate based on the interpretation of scripture.

 

[Aquinas11]

We should not be condoning stealing.

We seem to be passing judgement

Passing judgment as in “stealing”?

 

[Fauken]

Undermining the authority God established is undermining God.

We are not bound to obey clergy when we’re told to do something morally wrong, as their authority comes from God. They cannot use that which came from God to do something against Him in His name.

Concerns should be voiced to the leadership

Which there were.

and they will hold the debates assessing if something is inappropriate based on the interpretation of scripture.

Scripture? What is there to interpret from Scripture regarding this? Were those idols God, Mary, or the Saints, or were they not? Scripture will not answer that question. In fact, the fact the Vatican has called them symbols of “life” answers it. So if they’re nothing that we are supposed to be venerating, then why on earth were they treated that way?

 

[Willing_Spirit]

I haven’t even been alive a few decades, but I believe the wisdom of the clergy is what has kept the Church around for thousands of years, and I believe in the authority Jesus granted Peter.

 

[Weave]

If “wisdom of the clergy” was responsible for keeping the Church alive we would no longer have a Church.

 

[Fauken]

I haven’t even been alive a few decades, but I believe the wisdom of the clergy is what has kept the Church around for thousands of years

We’ll have to disagree. I think it’s the Holy Spirit that has kept the Church alive despite the efforts of certain clergymen. This is not to disparage them all: there are and have been wonderful clergymen. But there have also been many awful ones.

To paraphrase Belloc, without God’s help, the Church would have died quickly were it running without God and only on her members who run it with such knavish imbecility.

 

[Willing_Spirit]

Well we don’t completely disagree, I attribute the wisdom of the clergy to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Alphard]

God may bless you, brother, for speaking the truth

 

[Alphard]

These arguments remind me all the rethoric used to push leftist agendas : trust the clergy/ scientists they know better than you and than your common sense. You are nothing, trust the consensus.
Don’t let ourself be fooled guys, we trust in God and in our logic and we can see through lies and spin

 

[Willing_Spirit]

I’m not trying to propose people shouldn’t think for themselves. If people didn’t think for themselves, they couldn’t come to accept Catholicism as the truth of the world. The authority of the Church is a tennant of our faith. If we can’t trust the Church, why not just worship God without the Church? If just anyone from the laity starts acting against the Church on what they think is wrong, we will have anarchy.

Edit: It is why we have so many Christian denominations that defy One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[Fauken]

The authority of the Church is a tennant of our faith. If we can’t trust the Church, why not just worship God without the Church?

But who is “the Church” in your instance? The bishops at this Synod? This is not an Ecumenical Council. As those who support the Synod have said repeatedly, this is to come up with ideas to evangelize the Amazon, not settle doctrinal matters. A Synod, by its very nature, will not be creating pronouncements I must assent to. So what exactly must I assent to?

 

[Asinner]

As those who support the Synod have said repeatedly, this is to come up with ideas to evangelize the Amazon

Is it just me, or do people get the strange feeling that it’s actually the Amazonian pagans evangelizing us at this synod?

 

[Willing_Spirit]

The Church is all of us, but we have a hierarchy. The appropriate thing to do would have been to petition the archbishop with authority over the bishops at the synod to have those statues removed from the church.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

The Church is all of us, but we have a hierarchy. The appropriate thing to do would have been to petition the archbishop with authority over the bishops at the synod to have those statues removed from the church.

Well how long would that have taken? It would be long over and done with by then.

 

[Willing_Spirit]

How long it would have taken is irrelevant. Stealing from a Church to take matters into our own hands is wrong. Can you imagine if everybody that thought their intentions were good started doing what they wanted? What if everyone that has a problem with caucasian depictions not being true to Jesus just started raiding churches and tossing objects into rivers? Actions can’t be justified by intentions.