C
choose_to_love
Guest
There are fairly persuasive arguments, to me, that Sol Invictus came second, as a holiday/holy day, in response to Christmas. Prof. Tighe, I think, was the author - - here it is:
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Church Authority and the Amazon Controversy
- Thread starter Willing_Spirit
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C
CapitalistCatholic
Guest
I’m pretty sure Church Authority does not come directly from the wisdom of the clergy. If so, the Church would have collapsed in no less than 20 years after Christ established it. In no way should we blindly trust the clergy, but as scripture says, we should “test the spirits”. I’ve been testing the spirits since my conversion, and I’ve found that the hierarchy doesn’t care about me at all. They would rather allow us converts to be disenfranchised than have us welcomed into the Church we thought we had found.
When I found the Catholic Church, I thought all of my troubles were over. I found my safe haven from the ever-shifting secular world and Protestant churches. Then, Pope Francis makes comment after comment that all need to be clarified (and they rarely are). He does the oddest things during his papacy, making it hard to defend the papacy itself when defending my beliefs. He can never take criticism but instead resorts to name-calling. And now this. A Synod which seeks to undermine the very foundations of our Apostolic and Catholic Church. Fertility statues are inside churches with places of prominence being bowed to and kissed. That ain’t Jesus, Mary, or no saint. Why are you kissing a mere idea?
Luckily, we have a faithful laity, willing to speak out.
When I found the Catholic Church, I thought all of my troubles were over. I found my safe haven from the ever-shifting secular world and Protestant churches. Then, Pope Francis makes comment after comment that all need to be clarified (and they rarely are). He does the oddest things during his papacy, making it hard to defend the papacy itself when defending my beliefs. He can never take criticism but instead resorts to name-calling. And now this. A Synod which seeks to undermine the very foundations of our Apostolic and Catholic Church. Fertility statues are inside churches with places of prominence being bowed to and kissed. That ain’t Jesus, Mary, or no saint. Why are you kissing a mere idea?
Luckily, we have a faithful laity, willing to speak out.
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W
whatistrue
Guest
What? Never heard of a civil war? And no, it doesn’t quite say “if one of your city (sic) gets idols”, it is more like, “if one of your cities goes completely pagan and rejects God”.
W
whatistrue
Guest
None of this is causing me to lose sleep or get all worked up over some fancied intrusion. Definitely not to the point where I think it is fine and dandy to walk into a church and take something placed there by the Church hierarchy, like my opinion matters more than anyone else’s. But you do you.
M
Maximus1
Guest
I will take a look at your article thanks.
The problem as I see it is this. Jews did not keep track of birthdays in the first century on religious grounds. It was a recognition that " birthdays" was a pagan practice and idea.
So now Jesus is born. Whenever that was.
Next, he is taken to Egypt where he grows.
Then, it is essentially 30 years later, or so, the Gospel records information about him.
When he begins his ministry, essentially in the Jordan, he comes upon John the Baptist and Andrew for the first time. John is related, but recognises Jesus not as a family member from family events. Andrew is told he is the lamb of God.
Thereafter, the Apostles and disciples are gathered from strangers.
Joseph seems to pass, there is his mom, but Jesus does not seem to have anyone who can recount his birth I the narrative. Who would have had to pick up a relationship when he returned from Egypt. His contemporaries would have been killed by Herod in Bethlehem.
Mary, as a source flies in the face of who she is. A virgin giving virgin birth, she cannot be assumed to have defied the law and partake of birthday memory.
Next, the Gospel is to be read historically to a much larger extent than the OT in our faith.
Still there are inaccuracies and inconsistent passages.
Notable is WHO reigned and when at the time Jesus returned from Egypt.
Then there is the 3 very different accounts of the period between the last supper and Good Friday. The authors variations here illustrate well that they were not taking dictation.
So
To try and place DECEMBER 25TH on that record and record keeping is dubious.
Next
So why was the day identified? This is a seperate question. I think you are answering this one by poking holes in certain alternatives. Ok. Maybe those are low or no probability. Maybe they are accurate. But that leaves mystery not the right date.
Then again, there is a 1 in 365 chance it is right.
The problem as I see it is this. Jews did not keep track of birthdays in the first century on religious grounds. It was a recognition that " birthdays" was a pagan practice and idea.
So now Jesus is born. Whenever that was.
Next, he is taken to Egypt where he grows.
Then, it is essentially 30 years later, or so, the Gospel records information about him.
When he begins his ministry, essentially in the Jordan, he comes upon John the Baptist and Andrew for the first time. John is related, but recognises Jesus not as a family member from family events. Andrew is told he is the lamb of God.
Thereafter, the Apostles and disciples are gathered from strangers.
Joseph seems to pass, there is his mom, but Jesus does not seem to have anyone who can recount his birth I the narrative. Who would have had to pick up a relationship when he returned from Egypt. His contemporaries would have been killed by Herod in Bethlehem.
Mary, as a source flies in the face of who she is. A virgin giving virgin birth, she cannot be assumed to have defied the law and partake of birthday memory.
Next, the Gospel is to be read historically to a much larger extent than the OT in our faith.
Still there are inaccuracies and inconsistent passages.
Notable is WHO reigned and when at the time Jesus returned from Egypt.
Then there is the 3 very different accounts of the period between the last supper and Good Friday. The authors variations here illustrate well that they were not taking dictation.
So
To try and place DECEMBER 25TH on that record and record keeping is dubious.
Next
So why was the day identified? This is a seperate question. I think you are answering this one by poking holes in certain alternatives. Ok. Maybe those are low or no probability. Maybe they are accurate. But that leaves mystery not the right date.
Then again, there is a 1 in 365 chance it is right.
W
whatistrue
Guest
See post 97. Conquer, not steal. Remember time and place.Technically He told Israel to steal other people’s land.
First kill, then steal?See post 97. Conquer, not steal. Remember time and place.
W
whatistrue
Guest
Reading comprehension is a good skill to cultivate.
R
rom
Guest
Never. God never ordered anyone to steal. But getting rid of those Amazonian statues in the church is NOT stealing. It is cleansing the church of idols.When did God order someone to steal?
Note that two acts can be materially the same but formally different. The act of killing an innocent person is materially the same as the act of killing an unjust aggressor, but they are two formally different acts. The first is murder, while the second is self-defense. Likewise, taking the Amazonian statues away from the church is materially the same as stealing them, but the act does not have the formal character of stealing, because it is an act of getting rid of idols in a place of worship.
Similarly, the act of destroying property that does not belong to you is materially a bad act (vandalism), but formally it can be a good act depending on various factors and circumstances that affect the formal character of the act. Thus, Moses destroyed the golden calf; Christ overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the Temple. Materially they were vandalizing, but formally they were teaching the people how God must be respected. So, those who had the courage to go into the church, take away the idols and throw them into the river, have done a highly commendable job.
W
whatistrue
Guest
There may be a point thee, but the main issues as I see it is one of who gets to decide? I would be very hard pressed to justify comparing these perpetrators to Moses or Christ. I just don’t see where they think they got the authority as they are neither prophet nor Messiah. Now if one of them actually in fact got their marching orders from a burning bush (or equivalent - I am not that picky), then I could agree.
Looks like you have given yourself that right.There may be a point thee, but the main issues as I see it is one of who gets to decide?
R
rom
Guest
I don’t want to get out of topic, so I will be brief. “Thou shalt not kill” is a good translation. In fact, the new Bibles (NAB, RSVCE and others) have also stated the fifth commandment in Matt 5:21 and Matt 19:18 as “You shall not kill.” Go check it out.And “thou shalt not kill” is, as I understand it, a loose translation; a more correct word would be “murder”, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
W
whatistrue
Guest
I didn’t take anything from anywhere, nor am I trying to justify someone else doing so, so what is it that you claim I decided?
C
CapitalistCatholic
Guest
Vatican Clergy: Gathers around a statue of a pregnant woman, bowing and kissing the ground.
Laity: Gets confused and assumes they are worshipping the statue
Vatican clergy:
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Laity: Gets confused and assumes they are worshipping the statue
Vatican clergy:
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R
rom
Guest
Moses showed us an example of what to do with idols, and Christ showed us an example of what to do when our churches are being desecrated. What authority do we have to ignore their examples or not follow them? Do we have to be God or a prophet to do something good? Do we need to be directly ordered by God to get rid of idols in our churches? He already told us: “Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.” What else do you need?I would be very hard pressed to justify comparing these perpetrators to Moses or Christ. I just don’t see where they think they got the authority as they are neither prophet nor Messiah.
C
CapitalistCatholic
Guest
Exactly! Even if they are only representations of fertility and life, they should be placed no where near an altar. You know, the place where Christ is made present for us. A place of prominence, usually reserved for icons and blessed items.
W
whatistrue
Guest
That is true. However, whether that item is an actual idol rather than a work of art is a matter of assumption, not proven fact.He already told us: “Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.”
I obviously can’t speak for all, but I in no way consider myself to be on a par with either of them and know that there are many things they did that are not OK for me to do.Moses showed us an example of what to do with idols, and Christ showed us an example of what to do when our churches are being desecrated.
W
whatistrue
Guest
Same scenario, same picture; replace “Vatican Clergy” with “Ordinary Catholics”, “a pregnant woman” with “Blessed Virgin Mary”, and “Laity” with “Protestants”. If the Protestants are wrong, why do you think it is not possible for you to be?
C
CapitalistCatholic
Guest
I never said they were worshipping the statue. It looks that way! Why would they seek to create such a scandal? It is not a statue of Mary, nor a Saint, nor Christ, nor any angel. Why are they offering it such reverence?
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