Church Authority and the Amazon Controversy

[Emeraldlady]

In all charity, we will have to agree to disagree here because reading the history of Christian martyrdom the reason for the persecution did not involve politics but you can choose to keep denying Christian persecution. That is your choice.

As I stated to another poster, the point I was making was against what was implied regarding the cultural figures the Amazon people had brought to the synod. They were not ‘missionary’ in any way. Nobody believes there is danger that a Christian will turn around and worship something other that the One True God in the Trinity that has been revealed to us, other than in making ourselves the idol.

I believe that making such a fuss of this display, is a classic example of trying to deflect from the idols we hold onto in our Western culture.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

If we genuinely are impelled by idolatry in Church we would be throwing ourselves out of the place.

Throwing ourselves out!? We are there seeking God’s mercy for our sins. We don’t stay away because of them.

They were not ‘missionary’ in any way. Nobody believes there is danger that a Christian will turn around and worship something other that the One True God in the Trinity that has been revealed to us

Whether or not they were not missionary is debatable also but either way we do not place false gods, wooden idols in the Holiest place in the Catholic church that is reserved for our God. That is completely irreverent to the sanctuary and to our Holy God, the Real Presence.

 

[graciew]

On the contrary, the hysteria of some Catholics surrounding the display of cultural images exposes a lot of good sense and reverence for the sacred. Prominent display of cultural images (Pachamama statues,

The sense of reverence may be there, but the sense of reflecting that somebody or “somebodies”installed this narrative and many run with it, isn t there
There is also much posting consistent with sedevacantism, non Catholic in the “name “ of Catholic , and much approval of it…
This was a narrative somebody or some installed in the minds and by repeating the “worshipping” , the “ Pachamama” deity nonsense it won t become magically true.
Yet many bought it line and sinker. And celebrated theft , and humiliating the people who had brought the gift.
And many sell the line and sinker very conveniently and rejoice in division.
Be warned. You have a problem Houston, and it isn t this carving.

 

[rom]

This was a narrative somebody or some installed in the minds and by repeating the “worshipping” , the “ Pachamama” deity nonsense it won t become magically true.

The worship of the Pachamama as deity did not magically become true because it was often repeated. Rather, it was often repeated because it was true.

Yet many bought it line and sinker.

Many people did not just buy the worship of the Pachamama as deity because it was often claimed and repeated. The truth is, they saw evidence of it on the news videos. There were natives bowing, prostrating, chanting, etc. What is that if not worshipping? Therefore, the Pachamama was not just a symbol or a work of art. It was an idol. Now, it’s your turn. Show me evidence that it is NOT an idol.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Panchamama was an imprudent idea and could have been easily replaced with something less objectional. I don’t see any benefits from the whole thing either, except maybe as a social event, but that’s not really important.

 

[yankeesouth]

I love the Intellectual Gymnastics people turning themselves into pretzels to not call a pig a pig.

You’re in good company…

Bishop Schneider condemns Pachamama statue as ‘new golden calf’ in open letter - LifeSite

Full text of Bishop Athanasius Schneider’s forceful response to Amazon Synod controversy.

www.lifesitenews.com

In response to outcries from the Catholic faithful regarding these rites and the use of these statues, Vatican spokesmen and members of committees of the Amazon Synod downplayed or denied the evident religious syncretistic character of the statues.Their answers, however, were evasive and contradictory; they were acts of intellectual acrobatics and denials of obvious evidence.

 

[Jen7]

In a more in depth study of Polycarps death, we know that the Jewish authorities were involved as well, not wanting his body handed over to the Christians. Hence he was publicly incinerated. As with so many of the early martyrs, the underlying motives for execution was political.

I think some of the tension in this thread may be because some of these older cultures did not separate church and state as we do. It was unheard of. The emperor was god. What he worshipped, his people were expected to worship & to disobey was a state crime. Separating church/state persecution seems to me to be suggesting a dichotomy that didn’t exist to these people.

 

[Randolph]

Below is a portion of Bishop Schneider’s open letter. How much I wished the author of this open letter were Pope Francis himself.

“Catholics cannot accept any pagan worship, nor any syncretism between pagan beliefs and practices and those of the Catholic Church. The acts of worship of kindling a light, of bowing, of prostrating or profoundly bowing to the ground and dancing before an unclothed female statue, which represents neither Our Lady nor a canonized saint of the Church, violates the first Commandments of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me” and the explicit prohibition of God, who commands: “Beware lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and worship them and serve them, things which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven” (Dt 4:19), and: “You shall make for yourselves no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall you set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God” (Lev 26:1).

The Apostles prohibited even the slightest allusions or ambiguity in regard to acts of venerating idols: “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?” (2 Cor, 6:15-16), and “Flee from idolatry. The things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that you should have fellowship with devils. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” (1 Cor 10:16, 21-22).

St. Paul, without doubt, would say to all who actively participated in the acts of veneration of Pachamama statues, which symbolize material or creatural things, these words: “But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements, which you desire to serve again?” (Gal 4:9). The pagans, indeed, worshipped the elements as though they were living things. And observing the syncretistic or at least highly ambiguous religious acts in the Vatican’s Gardens, in St. Peter’s Basilica and in the church of Santa Maria in Traspontina, St. Paul would say: “They worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever” (Rom 1:25).

All true Catholics, who still have the spirit of the Apostles and of the Christian martyrs, should weep and say about the pagan ceremonies which took place in the Eternal City of Rome, paraphrasing the words of Psalm 79:1: “O God, the heathen have come into thine inheritance; thy holy city of Rome have they defiled; they have laid Rome in ruins”

Bishop Schneider condemns Pachamama statue as ‘new golden calf’ in open letter - LifeSite

Full text of Bishop Athanasius Schneider’s forceful response to Amazon Synod controversy.

www.lifesitenews.com

 

[rom]

Panchamama was an imprudent idea and could have been easily replaced with something less objectional.

Indeed. Why did they not use the Amazonian painting of “Our Lady of the Amazon” that MagdalenaRita showed us in another thread. That thread is closed now, but here is the link she provided:

G1 - 'Nossa Senhora da Amazônia é a flor da vitória-régia', diz designer - notícias em Amazonas

This painting was made by an Amazonian in 2011 and is very beautiful and very reverent. So, why did they not use this one? Why did they use the Pachamama instead? I think it is because they have a different agenda in this Synod. They want to tell us that the Pachamama is the culture of the Amazonian people, and that they can’t understand anything else outside their culture. Therefore, instead of teaching them our Faith, they want us to simply accept their beliefs without trying to evangelize them. But that is not obeying what Christ told us to do. He said, “Teach ye all nations… teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt 28: 19-20).

 

[Rubee]

Do you know there were certificates people would get from a Roman magistrate after they cursed Christ, to certify they were not Christians? Tell me, was the emperor Nero under whom St. Peter was crucified upside down Jewish? You need to read about the early church, that’s all.

 

[Rubee]

There is also much posting consistent with sedevacantism, non Catholic in the “name “ of Catholic , and much approval of it…

Please point out the sedevancantism you see. Which posts made you think the posters believe the see of Peter is vacant? Or that Pope Francis isn’t pope? I see after all you guys excuses have been burst by the pope himself, it’s now on to the next tactic: adhominems and patently absurd accusations.

 

[rom]

Pope Francis’ true beliefs and identity are made known as time passes: the purposeful ambiguous language in Amoris Laetitia; the clearing out of orthodox/faithful bishops/cardinals; the refusal to answer the Dubia; the appointments of “progressive” bishops/cardinals/priests to high positions in the Curia,; the throwing of underground Chinese Catholics under the bus; the belittling of youth preferring the Tridentine Mass; the charge of rigidity upon healthy practices or upon those whose express descent; the preference/participation/defense of Pachamama ceremony in the Vatican; and what is yet to come from this Amazon Synod…

Just a parenthetical note on the bold-faced part of your post. You are right. Pope Francis did not answer the Dubia. But just to make things straight, I want to add that the Dubia were answered, however not by Pope Francis, but by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. See The Dubia Were Answered - The Catholic Thing

 

[Fauken]

Just a parenthetical note on the bold-faced part of your post. You are right. Pope Francis did not answer the Dubia. But just to make things straight, I want to add that the Dubia were answered, however not by Pope Francis, but by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. See The Dubia Were Answered - The Catholic Thing

I’ve seen that article. While it’s great that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote something, the dubia was not addressed to him, but the Pope. It should be answered by the recipient, who is the leader of the Church, unless Pope Francis has stated that whatever Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI said is his response, which I don’t think he has.

 

[Rubee]

Thank you for this! I did not know Pope Benedict answered! Oh, how I wish he had not resigned.

 

[rom]

I agree with you. Pope Francis should have been the one to answer, but he did not.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

BRAVO!!! Great post!

 

[Fauken]

I agree with you. Pope Francis should have been the one to answer, but he did not.

I wouldn’t call it an answer then, or at least, not the answer. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has no authority to be making such a response.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I cried when he resigned. It was worse than losing my dad (no pun intended).

 

[Randolph]

I cried when he resigned. It was worse than losing my dad (no pun intended).

I also cried when Pope Benedict resigned. But more than our tears… Something else perhaps more powerful. As reported by BBC News,

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Rubee]

I cried when he resigned. It was worse than losing my dad (no pun intended).

I just had a sinking feeling in my stomach. But I thought it was because papal resignation was very bizarre to me, then.