Church Authority: Is it really just a guy in a hat?

[noma]

To end this all for a time:

A wise man once said: “Maybe you should take a break from these forums and spend some time in silence and prayer.”

My conversion involved a Greek Orthodox Priest, who pointed me to the Byzantine Catholic Faith, and had many wise words for me.

I am going back to him to pray with him, ask him questions, and seek quiet meditation with the Lord.

I am very confused at this time, and angry, and that is what has provoked this post, and many like it. I will return to tell you what has become of me, but will relegate myself to just sharing my opinion, and asking questions.

Thank you all again for your prayers. And most of you for your respectful statements.

 

[BlazingBolt]

Good Luck Noma, I will be praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you through this confusing time.

Just a couple of thoughts as well. Do you accept the Nicene Creed that the Church is one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic? Also, why do you think Jesus designated certain followers of his to be Apostles?

 

[FCEGM]

God’s speed, Noma. May He bless you with His peace and wisdom.

 

[Image_of_God]

To end this all for a time:

A wise man once said: “Maybe you should take a break from these forums and spend some time in silence and prayer.”

My conversion involved a Greek Orthodox Priest, who pointed me to the Byzantine Catholic Faith, and had many wise words for me.

I am going back to him to pray with him, ask him questions, and seek quiet meditation with the Lord.

I am very confused at this time, and angry, and that is what has provoked this post, and many like it. I will return to tell you what has become of me, but will relegate myself to just sharing my opinion, and asking questions.

Thank you all again for your prayers. And most of you for your respectful statements.

I’ll pray for you.

 

[noma]

A good point – noma seems to be conflating infallibility with inerrancy. (wrt more than just scriptures – cf. [post=1721073]this post[/post])

tee

Tee,

You are absolutely right. I was conflating the two notions.

Now, better educated on this matter, I still think the Catholic Church is not infallible in all cases it claims to be.

But as I was very wrong, and far worse indignant in my arrogance (and, also, confusion), I ignored what you were trying to say.

I sincerely apologize.

“And it will please those who are good to hear about the past errors of those who are now freed from them. And they will take delight, not because they are errors, but because they were and are so no longer.” - St. Augustine, Confessions

 

[Image_of_God]

Lies are the only alternative to the truth. Mistakes are ways of learning the truth, or they can be ways of indulging in lies. So now you believe that most people of the Catholic Church are not saved?

No, that is not what I said. Either people can use mistakes to better things and try their best not to make them happen again, or they can continue to do them over and over again, which is self deception. I want believe that most Christians are saved, but I don’t know how many are saved.

 

[Image_of_God]

Tee,

You are absolutely right. I was conflating the two notions.

Now, better educated on this matter, I still think the Catholic Church is not infallible in all cases it claims to be.

But as I was very wrong, and far worse indignant in my arrogance (and, also, confusion), I ignored what you were trying to say.

I sincerely apologize.

“And it will please those who are good to hear about the past errors of those who are now freed from them. And they will take delight, not because they are errors, but because they were and are so no longer.” - St. Augustine, Confessions

Let me note, the Papal Infallibilty and the Ecumenical Infallibilty of Councils are both Infallibilty of the Church not of specific people.

Since I do not believe that the Church can err, I think that that quote from St. Augustine is not in the right context, since he is speaking of error of a person—sin. Again, the Pope can err, but not when he is speaking with the Church’s charism of infallibilty.

The Papal Infalliblity is an infallibilty of the Church as promised from Christ. Augustine is speaking of personal error which the Papal Infallibilty is not.

 

[noma]

Let me note, the Papal Infallibilty and the Ecumenical Infallibilty of Councils are both Infallibilty of the Church not of specific people.

Since I do not believe that the Church can err, I think that that quote from St. Augustine is not in the right context, since he is speaking of error of a person—sin. Again, the Pope can err, but not when he is speaking with the Church’s charism of infallibilty.

The Papal Infalliblity is an infallibilty of the Church as promised from Christ. Augustine is speaking of personal error which the Papal Infallibilty is not.

The quote was intended to be directed toward me, and my errors (directly, the error I believed about inerrancy and infallibility). Errors are for people, not the Church. And the Church, as it is Orthodox and Catholic, cannot be in error, for it is the body of Christ.

But I can. And I was, and found in St. Augustine’s words (as usual) conviction from a holy man, and consolation in a fellow sinner covered by the Grace of Christ Jesus.

 

[Image_of_God]

The quote was intended to be directed toward me, and my errors (directly, the error I believed about inerrancy and infallibility). Errors are for people, not the Church. And the Church, as it is Orthodox and Catholic, cannot be in error, for it is the body of Christ.

But I can. And I was, and found in St. Augustine’s words (as usual) conviction from a holy man, and consolation in a fellow sinner covered by the Grace of Christ Jesus.

I am sorry. You know, noma, could you pray for me. I am a sinner too. And I need all the help I can get.

Look, I know that it was hard for you in the Catholic Church. Its authority seems to be hard to beat. But, I believe differently. Wherever you go I hope you are happy there.
But, I hope more so that you come home to the Church, we are always ready.

 

[noma]

I am sorry. You know, noma, could you pray for me. I am a sinner too. And I need all the help I can get.

Look, I know that it was hard for you in the Catholic Church. Its authority seems to be hard to beat. But, I believe differently. Wherever you go I hope you are happy there.
But, I hope more so that you come home to the Church, we are always ready.

I will pray for you. And I want desperately to come home. I am just not sure anymore exactly where that is.

And thank you also for your prayers.

 

[Image_of_God]

I will pray for you. And I want desperately to come home. I am just not sure anymore exactly where that is.

And thank you also for your prayers.

You know I can sometimes compare to your cituation. I am not trying any persuasions so…

But, anyway, A thought usaully comes up when I think of this. I hope it will help you, too, but I don’t know.

You should always think of the Crucifixion and how our of this horrible event came the oppurtunity of new life for everyone and the gates of heaven were opened.

But also think of this, Rome was a center of a paganistic empire. It was the most strongest city in the world. But, look at what God has done to Rome. He has turned the center of a paganistic and wicked empire, into the “heart” of the Church. By his Divine Providence, he would let Rome be sacked and the Roman Empire fall away, so that he could make this city for his own Glory. It shows that God is incharge of Rome not the Pope. When humble people come into the papacy, it can be used for what it was meant to be. One Pope that inspired me is Gregory VII who I will read about later on. But, if you would like to read about him you can always go to newadvent.org

 

[noma]

Again thank you, IoG. I will look into this.

“In You, 0 Mother, was preserved unimpaired, the image of God,
for you have taken up the cross and followed Christ.
By your deeds you have taught us to overlook the flesh,
for it passes away, and to care for the soul which is immortal.
Therefore, holy Mother Mary, your spirit rejoices with the angels.”

• Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great

 

[geraldffff]

Many people think they speak in accordance with his will, but how do they know? How can they all be infallible if they contradict each other?

Christ is clearly speaking specifically to Peter:

Matthew 16:18 ‘And I also say to** thee**, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever **thou **mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’

Christ is clearly giving specifically Peter special authority.

Also if you study the early Christians you will find that they all recognized this authority and strived for unity and fought against many heresies.

It was guaranteed by this authority which scriptures were inspired, not everything made it in to the Bible. The Canon of scripture was defined by the Church.

Exactly! To add to that Jesus gets very personal with Peter when he confirms that Peter is to be his preimer appointed represenative.
John 21:15
Jesus Reinstates Peter ] When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

 

[Eireann]

I believe in the statement Christ gave to Peter, that on this rock He would build His Church. But I **think **that follows for all believers; that all those in Christ’s Church, who put their faith on Christ, when they speak in accordance with His will, speak without error.

As such, I think there is nothing unique about the Pope, or about any of the Church magisterium. They were right when they spoke with the intentions of Christ. They are wrong about many things now.

So I open up the debate to all of you. Why should I believe that this authority was only for Peter? Granted, it was told only to Peter. St. Paul’s letters were only given to some select church’s. Christ said many things only to a select few. So why believe that the pope is more than a guy in a hat?

Thinking is one thing, it’s knowing that’s important.

 

[geraldffff]

St. Augustine of Hippo wrote the City of God to demonstrate what the true Church looks likes. Some are perishing some are being saved.

The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28" ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29" ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ "

 

[BlazingBolt]

How do we know the early Arian and Gnostic Heresies among others were incorect?

 

[noma]

How do we know the early Arian and Gnostic Heresies among others were incorect?

Gnosticism is directly attacked in Scripture in Timothy.

From John 1:1, as well as many other places, Arius is refuted.

The majority of Catholic Answers seems to accept that these heresies were dealt with strongly in Scripture.

However, as I am leaning away from the the thesis of this thread (I was likely wrong, and shown to be so here), and as I am leaning toward accepting the authority of the first seven councils (I am leaning toward Orthodoxy), that right there would be sufficient for refutation.

 

[geraldffff]

I have often thought to go to another religion. I have nine living brother and sisters who were baptized Catholic as I was. Some are Christians some are not, none are Roman Catholic. Upon examination I have found that to be other than Roman Catholic is not reasonable. For instance I am uncomfortable with the ABC thing it seems very unbalanced against the poor, unedgucated who recieved no instruction and no modeling on selfrestraint in formative years. But reason tells me for the Church to do other than she has would be a slippery slope on an endless down hill grade. I could split from the man in the hat but then lifes observation tells me that I would need to continue to split and continue to split into infinity. So I reflect and pray on what Peter observed and I find only mirrored in the Roman Catholic Church. John 6: 67After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.
:68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 

[noma]

Thank you for a point I will need to ponder.

I am indeed on a very steep and slippery slope, formed of sand.

I must take care not to fall too far, but to find a sure ledge, connected to the Rock, and to cling to it, discarding all else that may be affixed to me, so that, all other notions dying to me, and falling into nothingness, I remain, though naked, upon the rock, and though I may lose all else, save my soul.

Then I can be clothed in the light of the Grace of Christ.

You have very good words for me to ponder.

 

[DesertBrother]

But beauty is not enough. The Roman Church is filled with the virtues of faith and of hope. Its members with the virtue of love. But the Roman Church itself, in its rules, its laws, its morass of strictures and legislation, I have found to be without love.

A father has rules and laws for his children and his household doesn’t he? Although his children in their immaturity might find the house rules cold and oppressive, the father’s motivation in making them is love and protection. If the children were capable of guiding themselves he wouldn’t have made them. And once the children have grown, they come to understand how wise and loving their father’s guidance was.

What you see now as oppressive ruIes (still quite early in your conversion), are the very things that helped make possible that joy you experienced early on. You were full of joy because you had submitted yourself in obedience to Christ’s Church. You had released yourself of the burden of figuring it all out with your own mortal mind. The minute you started analyzing everything according to the flesh, you stopped walking on the water.