Church bars severely autistic boy from mass...

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personally I hope the mods issue restraining orders against posters here who are attacking each other, having entirely abandoned rational discussion of the news article and facts reported therein.
I have never intended to attack anybody but I will not remain silent with somebody here telling me that I am not a Christian and face harsh judgement from God. I’m sorry, but I am just really furious right now.

You’re right, this has gone beyond rational discussion. And that is sad. It’s sad that one cannot post an opinion at Catholic Answers without being attacked and accused of being a fake Christian. Sad.
 
I never said you would face harsh judgment for God! Matthew 21 says that, but it doesn’t say that to just you, he says it to me, too, and to all of us.

Everyone has an un-Christian attitude at times. What I said is if you are not willing to accept disabled people, then don’t pretend you are a Christian, because we are commanded to be different than the rest of society and to take risks to welcome those who are unwelcome (Matthew 21).

Jesus has asked the same question of me, and asks the same question of all of us everyday! Everyone should ask themselves whether or not they are living the Christian life today.

I am sorry you feel offended, but don’t think I am spared of the same questions. I am in the same boat as you are, and am challenged to change my attitudes on a daily basis.

I happen to actually agree with you that the situation should not continue as it is, and he should not be allowed to roam un-attended at Mass. I think a special disability Mass would be more in order.

What I was trying to challenge is the strong rejection and fear of the family behind your response. You are not alone in having that reaction, and I have had it too to people with disabilities, but it is not what we are called to do.
 
I’m sure that the pastor and bishop sought the restraining order only as a last resort. The parents said that nobody told them their son was disturbing them–but how many people told the priest that, and expressed their concern and even fears?

And when the mother says they sit on their boy to comfort and calm him (in addition to retraining him with ropes and fleece ties)–well, do I detect just a bit of denial about the REAL reason? That maybe THEY are afraid of his hurting others, as well?
 
I’m sure that the pastor and bishop sought the restraining order only as a last resort. The parents said that nobody told them their son was disturbing them–but how many people told the priest that, and expressed their concern and even fears?

And when the mother says they sit on their boy to comfort and calm him (in addition to retraining him with ropes and fleece ties)–well, do I detect just a bit of denial about the REAL reason? That maybe THEY are afraid of his hurting others, as well?
they are probably afraid of him hurting himself.
 
I never said you would face harsh judgment for God! Matthew 21 says that, but it doesn’t say that to just you, he says it to me, too, and to all of us.

Everyone has an un-Christian attitude at times. What I said is if you are not willing to accept disabled people, then don’t pretend you are a Christian, because we are commanded to be different than the rest of society and to take risks to welcome those who are unwelcome (Matthew 21).

Jesus has asked the same question of me, and asks the same question of all of us everyday! Everyone should ask themselves whether or not they are living the Christian life today.

I am sorry you feel offended, but don’t think I am spared of the same questions. I am in the same boat as you are, and am challenged to change my attitudes on a daily basis.

I happen to actually agree with you that the situation should not continue as it is, and he should not be allowed to roam un-attended at Mass. I think a special disability Mass would be more in order.

What I was trying to challenge is the strong rejection and fear of the family behind your response. You are not alone in having that reaction, and I have had it too to people with disabilities, but it is not what we are called to do.
You clearly stated that I would have to answer to Jesus for my attitude. Telling somebody they’re gonna have to answer for something to Jesus is basically telling them their in big trouble with Jesus.

You are choosing to read whatever you want into my statements that is not there. I have stated several times that my issue is NOT with people with disabilities or this boy in particular, but you refuse to accept that and continue to accuse me of basically being an ignorant bigot that hates the disabled. I really do not appreciate such an accusation and I think it’s extremely unfair. I think I have made it clear that my issue is with the parents and not the boy.
 
I’m sure that the pastor and bishop sought the restraining order only as a last resort. The parents said that nobody told them their son was disturbing them–but how many people told the priest that, and expressed their concern and even fears?

And when the mother says they sit on their boy to comfort and calm him (in addition to retraining him with ropes and fleece ties)–well, do I detect just a bit of denial about the REAL reason? That maybe THEY are afraid of his hurting others, as well?
Or did other parishioners express their concerns to the parents and get the ‘oh, you just don’t understand’ brush off that is showing up in the mother’s reaction to the restraining order?

Honeysuckle–disagreeing with you does not equate with ignorance. Autism does not make one immune to puberty, and just because the mother says that it is only due to ‘sensory reasons’ does not mean that the young man wasn’t seeking a sensual thrill by getting an adolescent girl onto his lap. We’re not talking about a child–we are talking about an adolescent male with impaired social skills grabbing an adolescent female. An adolescent female who, by virtue of circumstances, cannot be considered free to express exactly how she felt about the situation (a situation which, to outsiders looked exactly like a sexual assault).

What excuse is there for not making sure that ‘occasional incontinence’ isn’t contained? Why reject the offer of a private Mass?

We’re not talking about mild disturbances by someone talking out of turn during Mass–we’re talking about real concerns about health and safety of several people.

No, he cannot be disciplined out of being autistic–but that doesn’t mean he cannot be disciplined at all.
 
I didn’t put those words in your mouth, they are yours, and it is entirely one-sided.

So, from that, I conclude you do not feel strongly that we are called to minister to people who are ostracized from society. Perhaps I am wrong, but you’ve expressed very little that would acknowledge the other side of the story.

There is a post from a mother on page 2 or 3 telling the story of her autistic son trying to give the sign of a peace, and the person turning away, and her son having tears in his eyes.

I assume that person would be you, based on your anger that the Race’s have a different story than the priest. But maybe I’m wrong. You can clear up the misunderstanding if you choose to.

I think it’s interesting that so very, very few people have responded to the human need that Adam represents, or the scripture I quoted. Instead, they talk about their fears of people being hurt, and suggest no accommodation that allows him to be in community with other Catholics is acceptable.

I don’t think that’s an acceptable position for anyone who is a Christian to have, and it’s based on the verses I quoted.

What’s so irrational about that Puzzleannie? Was Jesus irrational when he called the Pharisees vipers? Who should this boy turn to if not to the Church?
Are there ANY limits on a persons behavior at Mass?

What is the Priests responsibility to his Faith Community?

What is the Races responsibility to their Faith Community?
 
Are there ANY limits on a persons behavior at Mass?

What is the Priests responsibility to his Faith Community?

What is the Races responsibility to their Faith Community?
Yes, to # 1 but to All peoples behavior…including unruly children and parents who refuse to take them out…I 'd like to see a priest tell a parent…their child wasn’t welcome…

Some priest are no different than some of the uncharitable posters who don’t understand disabilities…

The Races responsibility is the same as all of us to our faith community…what about the responsiblity of their community to them.

Now having responded I say , the Races are going thru a tough time…their son needs some extra extra special education…my son behaves himself most of the time …if he doesn’t he would be taken out. The parents also need to discline him and it can be done but is difficult and would need some help and understanding…
 
I think it would really be interesting to hear what other parisioners have to say about this. I did a google search on this story and it seems that all of them have only interviewed this family. I haven’t seen any interviews with parishioners or this priest. Aren’t any of these reporters interested in hearing the other side of this story? It just comes across as another smear story on the Big Bad Catholic Church.

Sad.
 
You clearly stated that I would have to answer to Jesus for my attitude. Telling somebody they’re gonna have to answer for something to Jesus is basically telling them their in big trouble with Jesus.
Yes, and it’s true. The Church is Christ on earth, so when someone challenges you on an issue that neglects a deep principle of the gospel, and you say “I don’t have to answer to you”, then you are in effect saying I will ignore the message, and will wait until I am face to face with Jesus before I deal with this.

You don’t have to take my word for it. What does the Church say Matthew 21 teaches?
You are choosing to read whatever you want into my statements that is not there. I have stated several times that my issue is NOT with people with disabilities or this boy in particular, but you refuse to accept that and continue to accuse me of basically being an ignorant bigot that hates the disabled. I really do not appreciate such an accusation and I think it’s extremely unfair. I think I have made it clear that my issue is with the parents and not the boy.
Well, I may indeed be “reading bigotry” into your comments, but it’s not very plausible to imagine a person who truly feels the Church should be a welcoming place to those who cannot function normally in society would respond with outrage that a family has a different story than the priest.

Maybe your outrage is really over something else, like the expectation that a parish fail to be responsible because they wish to be politically correct. In that case, it’s understandable, (at least to me). But that’s just one part of the story. What about ministering to Adam? That’s the other part, and you have never responded.

It’s a valid and relevant question for everyone in the Church. What exactly is our responsibility to those who cannot sit normally through Mass? Do we have any obligation to them based on Matthew 21?
 
Yes, to # 1 but to All peoples behavior…including unruly children and parents who refuse to take them out…I 'd like to see a priest tell a parent…their child wasn’t welcome…

Some priest are no different than some of the uncharitable posters who don’t understand disabilities…

The Races responsibility is the same as all of us to our faith community…what about the responsiblity of their community to them.

Now having responded I say , the Races are going thru a tough time…their son needs some extra extra special education…my son behaves himself most of the time …if he doesn’t he would be taken out. The parents also need to discline him and it can be done but is difficult and would need some help and understanding…
I really don’t think any of this is about understanding disabilities or unruly, disruptive behavior in Mass. This issue has gone way beyond that. The problem is that there is a real safety issue here. It’s not this boys fault. Of course, he doesn’t understand what he’s doing.

It just comes across to me that the parents are more worried about their sons right to go out in public (and I can understand that) than the people that have been put in harms way. They explain it away and make excuses and refuse to acknowledge that there’s a problem. A child being hit is a problem. People being nearly run over is a problem. Elderly people nearly being knocked over is a problem. But they don’t seem to express any concern about it. They don’t even seem to care.
 
Yes, to # 1 but to All peoples behavior…including unruly children and parents who refuse to take them out…I 'd like to see a priest tell a parent…their child wasn’t welcome…
The parents admit their child urinates on the floor , has to be physically restrained either by sitting on him or tying him up and that he did indeed get into a parishioners car and race the engine. He also pulled an adolescent girl onto his lap. Should this type of behavior be allowed by everyone at Mass? just one person? Two? Where do you draw the line?
Some priest are no different than some of the uncharitable posters who don’t understand disabilities…
What is it this Priest has not done that you think he should have?
The Races responsibility is the same as all of us to our faith community…what about the responsiblity of their community to them.
I have read much about the communites responsibilty to the Races but very little about their responsibility to their community. Why dont the stay in the cry room? Why wont they allow the Priest to say a private Mass?
Now having responded I say , the Races are going thru a tough time…their son needs some extra extra special education…my son behaves himself most of the time …if he doesn’t he would be taken out. The parents also need to discline him and it can be done but is difficult and would need some help and understanding…
But they refuse to discipline him. They have refused every reasonable accomodation the Priest has offered. Wghat should he do?
 
Yes, and it’s true. The Church is Christ on earth, so when someone challenges you on an issue that neglects a deep principle of the gospel, and you say “I don’t have to answer to you”, then you are in effect saying I will ignore the message, and will wait until I am face to face with Jesus before I deal with this. I am not ignoring anything. I disagree with you that my position is uncharitable and I don’t believe I have anything to answer to Jesus for on this matter. And no, I do not have to answer to you…unless by chance you are a priest or bishop or the pope…

You don’t have to take my word for it. What does the Church say Matthew 21 teaches?

Well, I may indeed be “reading bigotry” into your comments, but it’s not very plausible to imagine a person who truly feels the Church should be a welcoming place to those who cannot function normally in society would respond with outrage that a family has a different story than the priest. I never once said the Church should not be welcoming to this boy. In fact, I made it very clear that I agreed with the priests attempt to go out of his way to accomodate this child’s needs by celebrating Mass at his home. How much more welcoming can you get?

Maybe your outrage is really over something else, like the expectation that a parish fail to be responsible because they wish to be politically correct. In that case, it’s understandable, (at least to me). But that’s just one part of the story. What about ministering to Adam? That’s the other part, and you have never responded. I pointed out that the Church clearly did “minister to Adam”. You chose to ignore it.

It’s a valid and relevant question for everyone in the Church. What exactly is our responsibility to those who cannot sit normally through Mass? Do we have any obligation to them based on Matthew 21?
 
I really don’t think any of this is about understanding disabilities or unruly, disruptive behavior in Mass. This issue has gone way beyond that. The problem is that there is a real safety issue here. It’s not this boys fault. Of course, he doesn’t understand what he’s doing.

It just comes across to me that the parents are more worried about their sons right to go out in public (and I can understand that) than the people that have been put in harms way. They explain it away and make excuses and refuse to acknowledge that there’s a problem. A child being hit is a problem. People being nearly run over is a problem. Elderly people nearly being knocked over is a problem. But they don’t seem to express any concern about it. They don’t even seem to care.
When you explain your perspective that way, it makes sense to me, and is not offensive. You may be right that the parents are in denial. That certainly is possible. Another possibility is the one I raised, which is that the priest is misinterpreting his behavior.

My perspective was best expressed by another blogger, Charles Leck, who wrote this today:

"*Thanks, Redtown, for your come-back comment. Good comments. I enjoy your polite, considerate style.

Yes, I’ve considered that someone might be injured. I’m suggesting, and not in some ideal way either, that there are solutions. A congregation that represents Jesus simply can’t turn someone away – especially someone diseased. I know how congregations operate and if this one had been given serious, attentive leadership, the they could come up with a solution. A special place for Adam – something he could take great pride in. He would be segregated from people he might injure, but he would be in the house of his Lord, and allowed to worship him.

Refusing someone entry into a church doesn’t sit right with me.

In a church, along time ago, that I had some major responsibility in, we had a homeless fellow who would just wander in, weave his way down the aisle to the front of the church and look up at the Pastor and give him hell.

One day I managed to find the fellow out on the street and I had a long, relatively sober conversation with him. I told him I’d like to give him the opportunity to speak to the congregation occasionally, but we’d have to set some rules of behavior. He wanted to know how long he could talk. Twenty-minutes, I told him, twice a year.

He was so nervous his first time that he gave up after 5 minutes and sat down in a pew and allowed the worship to roll on. He never asked to speak again. He began attending, got to know some people and eventually was talked into going into treatment at a Salvation Army facility. He works for the Army now (or did, the last time I heard) and I know he stayed sober for many, many years.

Charlie Leck"*
 
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masondoggy:
I never once said the Church should not be welcoming to this boy. In fact, I made it very clear that I agreed with the priests attempt to go out of his way to accomodate this child’s needs by celebrating Mass at his home. How much more welcoming can you get?
The parish could be quite a bit more charitable, as could you. It’s really disappointing that the majority of people are so blind to their need to alter their attitudes toward those who are different.

It’s more than just, hey, maybe we shouldn’t subject the person to euthanasia, it’s about having a truly Christ-like attitude.

It’s amazing to me that the major theme of the gospels is minimized and rationalized away by so many people. The gospels were written about Adam.

The Church could:

Allowing him to be at Mass with others, separated by two pews and allowed to leave early.

Allowing a therapist to help decrease the bad behaviors during Mass.

Listening to the mother’s explanations of the son’s behavior, assuming they are valid explanations.

Shaking his hand when he gives the sign of the peace.

Offering to help the family.

But let me guess, 20 more people will post on this thread infuriated that I dare expect such an attitude from them. I don’t have to apologize for calling that attitude un-Christian, because there is no getting around the fact that it isn’t.
 
.

Yes, I’ve considered that someone might be injured. I’m suggesting, and not in some ideal way either, that there are solutions. A congregation that represents Jesus simply can’t turn someone away – especially someone diseased. I know how congregations operate and if this one had been given serious, attentive leadership, the they could come up with a solution. A special place for Adam – something he could take great pride in. He would be segregated from people he might injure, but he would be in the house of his Lord, and allowed to worship him.

Refusing someone entry into a church doesn’t sit right with me.
According to what is reported, the priest did not deny the boy entrance to the church. He tried to work with the family and offer solutions, during Mass, to allow the boy access to Mass while protecting other parishioners. The family refused. It was because the family refused to work with the priest that he had to resort to the restraining order as a last resort to protect the community. This is not the boys fault, it is the parents fault. They are the what is keeping this kid from Mass. Not his disability.
The parish could be quite a bit more charitable, as could you. It’s really disappointing that the majority of people are so blind to their need to alter their attitudes toward those who are different.

It’s more than just, hey, maybe we shouldn’t subject the person to euthanasia, it’s about having a truly Christ-like attitude.

It’s amazing to me that the major theme of the gospels is minimized and rationalized away by so many people. The gospels were written about Adam.

The Church could:

Allowing him to be at Mass with others, separated by two pews and allowed to leave early. And if I remember correctly, didn’t somebody else say that was one of the options offered to the parents?

Allowing a therapist to help decrease the bad behaviors during Mass.

Listening to the mother’s explanations of the son’s behavior, assuming they are valid explanations. It’s irrelevent. It doesn’t matter why he does what he does. The fact is it’s harming other parishioners.

Shaking his hand when he gives the sign of the peace. Where was it ever reported that people were refusing to shake his hand? If that was the case, I would equally be outraged. But if I remember correctly, that happened to a poster here in this thread, not to this particular boy.

Offering to help the family.

But let me guess, 20 more people will post on this thread infuriated that I dare expect such an attitude from them. I don’t have to apologize for calling that attitude un-Christian, because there is no getting around the fact that it isn’t.
 
The parents admit their child urinates on the floor , has to be physically restrained either by sitting on him or tying him up and that he did indeed get into a parishioners car and race the engine. He also pulled an adolescent girl onto his lap. Should this type of behavior be allowed by everyone at Mass? just one person? Two? Where do you draw the line?

What is it this Priest has not done that you think he should have?

I have read much about the communites responsibilty to the Races but very little about their responsibility to their community. Why dont the stay in the cry room? Why wont they allow the Priest to say a private Mass?

But they refuse to discipline him. They have refused every reasonable accomodation the Priest has offered. Wghat should he do?
To be honest , more work should be done with the family…they need help with their son…I don’t know what else could be done …
On the news this morning a meeting was asked for with the Bishop…autistic society and family…thats were they will she progress will be noted.

When someone rejects your child…they reject you…it hurts…my son is sometimes difficult but I have help with disipline and would never allow a continued display at Mass…but then…I’ve seen small children disrupt Mass and their parents won’t take them out…🤷

I’m finished with this thread…it hurts.
 
To be honest , more work should be done with the family…they need help with their son…I don’t know what else could be done …
On the news this morning a meeting was asked for with the Bishop…autistic society and family…thats were they will she progress will be noted.

When someone rejects your child…they reject you…it hurts…my son is sometimes difficult but I have help with disipline and would never allow a continued display at Mass…but then…I’ve seen small children disrupt Mass and their parents won’t take them out…🤷

I’m finished with this thread…it hurts.
I hope the family does get more help, but to be honest, I don’t think it’ll do any good. It seems to me that they aren’t accepting the help and are refusing to cooperate. They are in serious denial and they won’t be able to help their son until they wake up. Just my opinion.

I disagree that anybody here is rejecting this child. That’s the impression the media has portrayed with their headlines. But it’s misleading. Really misleading and that’s where my aggravation lies.
 
I appreciate those posters who have had personal experience with autistic and other types of handicapped family members sharing their knowledge with me. I have learned a lot, especially that behavior of most/all such handicaps cannot be stereotyped because there is so much variation between types, degree of disability, etc.
It seems to me that no one on this thread has personal knowledge of the situation in this particular news story. We are all getting it from news stories. Am I correct?
Therefore, I am appalled that anyone can be called a bigot, unChristian, unfeeling or not living the gospel by any other poster. I have read all the posts and have not seen anything that would warrant such a response.
Our knowledge of the situation is limited by what we have read in the news and therefore somewhat incomplete. What the priest has offered or done, what the family has requested or done and how the rest of the parishioners have responded is again incomplete knowledge for us. Posters have offered their opinions ( the purpose of such a board) and speculated on the situation. I have not noticed any lack of charity in those opinions that would warrant the vitrolic response of any poster to question anothers faith.
'What is the faith community’s duty" is an interesting and valid point for discussion in my opinion, possibly a new thread? But again, to jump to the assumption that posters or the community of this particular parish are not meeting the gospel in this situation is rash, unfair and possibly sinful.
Certainly prayers are in need for this family, priest, parish and poster.

PEACE AND LOVE
:gopray:
 
To be honest , more work should be done with the family…they need help with their son…I don’t know what else could be done …
On the news this morning a meeting was asked for with the Bishop…autistic society and family…thats were they will she progress will be noted.

When someone rejects your child…they reject you…it hurts…my son is sometimes difficult but I have help with disipline and would never allow a continued display at Mass…but then…I’ve seen small children disrupt Mass and their parents won’t take them out…🤷

I’m finished with this thread…it hurts.
That is the best thing said in this entire thread! The family needs help with their son!

Aimee I am sorry if I said anything to hurt you - do know that I would not be afraid to sit next to you and your son and shake his hand. I may give you more room than I normally would others but only because I understand that “personal space” for the autistic tends to be a larger area than for typically developing individuals. If my one post before this on this thread was in any way a tirade (it wasn’t meant to be) I do apologize to you and others who are currently parenting a child with autism - I was trying to point out how I understood what the Priest was saying.

Brenda V.
 
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