Church Can't Ever Go Corrupt

[Justy90]

No it doesn’t, and the reasoning in my premises still stands.

It begs the question and you avoid it.

 

[Hisalone]

It’s a lot more complicated than that. European Monarch’s were greedy for Church property and power. The Reformation gave them a precedent to take them. Many things would have happened differently if the grand catastrophe known as the Reformation and its aftermath were to be avoided.

Church authorities were greedy for political power, were greedy for land were greedy for wealth The Reformation set the Church of God free from this abuse.

 

[Hisalone]

You said a mouthful there and I totally agree. The mark has been completely missed because there is no understanding of who Christ really is and what he begins to do within us once our faith in his Salvation begins to grow and manifest itself deeper within us. It’s great to see someone here who understands this apart from all of the human rheoric.

God bless

 

[jdobbins]

Thank you for all the (name removed by moderator)ut people. I’d like to reformat the argument based on the responses I’ve gotten.

Okay so this argument is solely aimed at Christians.

**A Church is God’s way of providing moral guidance to humanity, therefore it’s a product of God’s intervention. However why would God provide a Church only to let it fall into error? It’s just illogical. **

**There’s the counter argument that there is no Church Institution, only the Scriptures. However why would God provide moral guidance through a medium that has so many honest yet conflicting interpretations? He might as well have not provided moral guidance at all. Again, its illogical. **

There’s also the argument that we can’t know what God would do or why therefore my approach is flawed. As I noted this is hypocritical thinking. Christians know that God wants salvation for us, that he sent Christ, that he has provided the Bible, etc. I should be able to apply reason in order to understand the nature and existence of His Church.

Jesus never said the Catholic Church could not experience corruption. It is both a human and Divine institution. It is the Mystical Body of Christ. He did say it would be attacked, but He also said the gates of hell wold not prevail. He also said He would be with it until the end of time and that the Holy Spirit would be sent to guide it. The attacks may be severe, as we saw with the Church in Ireland. We have seen pockets of political and moral corruption through the ages, but the Church has prevailed through all of them, as it always will. Jesus did give it the teaching Magisterium and the protection from error when the Pope speaks ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals, but those two subjects are the limits of his infallibility.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Church authorities were greedy for political power, were greedy for land were greedy for wealth The Reformation set the Church of God free from this abuse.

Wrong! The protestant revolt only bought disunity to Christianity.

 

[benidict]

:

Thats very true

cmon tweety mom, quit hiding behind the bag! tho i like the icon. state loud and true… I AM A CATHOLIC! you may be a little left of center my dear, but many of us still love ya! Peace to you and yours.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by AirLiner

A Church is God’s way of providing moral guidance to humanity, therefore it’s a product of God’s intervention. However why would God provide a Church only to let it fall into error? It’s just illogical.

There’s the counter argument that there is no Church Institution, only the Scriptures. However why would God provide moral guidance through a medium that has so many honest yet conflicting interpretations? He might as well have not provided moral guidance at all. Again, its illogical.

There’s also the argument that we can’t know what God would do or why therefore my approach is flawed. As I noted this is hypocritical thinking. Christians know that God wants salvation for us, that he sent Christ, that he has provided the Bible, etc. I should be able to apply reason in order to understand the nature and existence of His Church.

Why did God place the Tree of Wisdom?

The Church can go corrupt it is a fact, history supports it, for example: Indulgences.

We can’t use logic to explain how God thinks. We use reason to study the Bible, however the same does not apply to God, He is out of our imagination, we can’t understand Him, we just know He is, (Yahweh, “I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM” or “I AM WHO I AM”). It is a mystery of God.

The Church as a whole (every true-believer of Christ in the world) can’t go corrupt, parts of the Church can go corrupt (whether a part of the Catholic Churches, or a part of Baptist Churches, or a part of Pentecostal Churches, or a part of Methodist Churches, etc.), the Bible supports this (Judas). There will always be someone within the Church that is corrupt, it can be the Pope, the bishops, the fathers, the pastors, the missionaries , the laity,we are all fallible, so we have to stay every nanosecond of our lives with Jesus Christ to be saved and to be able to preach to the unsaved, to glorify Jesus with our lives, to do those great miracles Jesus told we shall do.

Matthew 24:13 “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

John 14:12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

The peace of Christ be with all of us

Amen.

 

[Teneas]

What you have missed is that God gave Himself so that humans can be moral agents without Him we are corrupt, It is Christ within us individually that changes us to be moral. You have missed the mark so profoundly that your own salvation comes into question.

Nice that we can question another’s salvation here. God alone does this, not even our Catholic church makes claims about who is in hell.

 

[Teneas]

The Church as a whole (every true-believer of Christ in the world) can’t go corrupt, parts of the Church can go corrupt (whether a part of the Catholic Churches, or a part of Baptist Churches, or a part of Pentecostal Churches, or a part of Methodist Churches, etc.), the Bible supports this (Judas). There will always be someone within the Church that is corrupt, it can be the Pope, the bishops, the fathers, the pastors, the missionaries , the laity,we are all fallible, so we have to stay every nanosecond of our lives with Jesus Christ to be saved and to be able to preach to the unsaved, to glorify Jesus with our lives, to do those great miracles Jesus told we shall do.

Matthew 24:13 “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

John 14:12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

Amen.

This is how we view our Catholic Church. Our united Church. Much as non-Catholic’s view the Church. That our Church, a united collection of believers, can never go corrupt as a whole. It’s not so hard to understand how we view our Church if you take into account it’s the exact same way non-Catholic’s view the entire collection of believers. We just happen to believe it’s more than a collection of believers, that it’s an actual established organization for lack of better terms

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by **Teneas
**

This is how we view our Catholic Church. Our united Church. Much as non-Catholic’s view the Church. That our Church, a united collection of believers, can never go corrupt as a whole. It’s not so hard to understand how we view our Church if you take into account it’s the exact same way non-Catholic’s view the entire collection of believers. We just happen to believe it’s more than a collection of believers, that it’s an actual established organization for lack of better terms

Agreed, a united collection of believers to execute the Lord’s plan, to preach everyone and worship our Lord together, for me this is an organization.

Btw To answer the question I posted, Why did God created the Tree of Wisdom?

It was for us to take a choice because if He gave us free will, was for us to choose if we wanted to be with Him or without Him.

 

[guanophore]

The Church can go corrupt it is a fact, history supports it, for example: Indulgences.

You have been misinformed, A. there is nothing corrupt about an indulgence.

We can’t use logic to explain how God thinks. We use reason to study the Bible, however the same does not apply to God, He is out of our imagination, we can’t understand Him, we just know He is, (Yahweh, “I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM” or “I AM WHO I AM”). It is a mystery of God.

I agree that God is a mystery, and that we will never be able to comprehend all of Him. However, He does want us to use our minds to understand Him as best we are able. Thinking and using reason to understand are part of how God created us, and He expects us to use these gifts to seek after Him and find Him.

The Church as a whole (every true-believer of Christ in the world) can’t go corrupt, parts of the Church can go corrupt (whether a part of the Catholic Churches, or a part of Baptist Churches, or a part of Pentecostal Churches, or a part of Methodist Churches, etc.),

Actually, only people can go corrupt. It is not possible for the Holy Bride of Christ to be corrupt.

The peace of Christ be with all of us

Amen.

What brings you here to CAF?

 

[Teneas]

Agreed, a united collection of believers to execute the Lord’s plan, to preach everyone and worship our Lord together, for me this is an organization.

Btw To answer the question I posted, Why did God created the Tree of Wisdom?

It was for us to take a choice because if He gave us free will, was for us to choose if we wanted to be with Him or without Him.

For the first part:

Show me one, just one denomination, outside the Catholic Church that shows the world how united they are in their belief. Christian denomination of course. I am not saying there aren’t any others out there, I just know of no others that are united in their belief, much like the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and do not argue all the time about essential Christian belief.

Second part:

Yep.

I don’t want to derail the thread of course, just saying that individuals do not, in anyway, make up the entire Church. Pointing the finger at one bad kid, doesn’t make a family wrong in anyway.

 

[Rence]

For the first part:
Show me one, just one denomination, outside the Catholic Church that shows the world how united they are in their belief. Christian denomination of course. I am not saying there aren’t any others out there, I just know of no others that are united in their belief, much like the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and do not argue all the time about essential Christian belief.

Can you please explain to me how the Catholic Church is united in its belief? What does this mean exactly? When people say this, I don’t understand it because I look around in real life and I see all kinds of variance with regards to beliefs. For example, in real life almost every Catholic woman I know is on some kind of birth control. And one Church is all “traditional” in the Mass, but another can have women dancing in the aisles in bare feet, long dresses and flowers in her hair. Then there are nuns and sisters who voice their opinion and supported Health Care Reform despite the whole US Bishops, who were against it. Then there are a few Catholic Hospitals who just announced they would do abortions in the case of a woman’s life being in danger, which raised all kinds of drama on the conservative side of this forum. I’ve never met anyone as scrupulous as those on this forum, so I can’t say they represent the every day Catholic. Churches are half full or less, except for Christmas, with no lines to confession anymore.

The tradional folks on the forum state that there are no variances of Catholics, only Catholics and lapse Catholics, but in real life, that’s not true, is it?

IMOHO, the Catholic Church isn’t unified at all. Sure it has it’s little communities here and there, and some are traditional and some are conservative in their beliefs and practices, but then you have whole communities that have a wide range of variance in that one community.

Yes, the dogma and the teachings have been consistent, but that doesn’t mean Catholics across the board believe and follow them.

Second part:
Yep.
I don’t want to derail the thread of course, just saying that individuals do not, in anyway, make up the entire Church. Pointing the finger at one bad kid, doesn’t make a family wrong in anyway.

Unfortunately, I see this variance in real life too. Yes, many folks, especially traditional ones will say that the Church as a whole will never be corrupt and shouldn’t be judged by the actions of individual “dissenters”. But then there’s a whole lot of Catholics out there who feel let down by the corruption that individuals in the Church have fallen into, and feel those individuals represent the Church as a whole.

 

[Teneas]

Can you please explain to me how the Catholic Church is united in its belief?

I believe you answer your own question here my friend:

Yes, the dogma and the teachings have been consistent, but that doesn’t mean Catholics across the board believe and follow them.

Catholics as a whole, across the board, will never believe everything 100%. That is a given, but I direct you once again to your statement above, or at least the first part of it.

“Yes the dogma and the teachings have been consistent” This makes the Catholic Church across the globe united in it’s belief. Individuals make up the Church yes, but do not dictate it’s truth.

Unfortunately, I see this variance in real life too. Yes, many folks, especially traditional ones will say that the Church as a whole will never be corrupt and shouldn’t be judged by the actions of individual “dissenters”. But then there’s a whole lot of Catholics out there who feel let down by the corruption that individuals in the Church have fallen into, and feel those individuals represent the Church as a whole.

Does this make the entire Church wrong? Or does it mean that those individuals will not grow past the sins of individual men, or a group of a few men? I would never believe my family is wrong just because my brother may act like a jacka** at times.

I do agree with you however on your thoughts, and you are in no way wrong for them. There are many individuals that make up our “united Church”, but we are not the Church as a whole. There will always be those that struggle with things our Church imposes, believes, practices. My wife does the very same thing, but remains strong in her belief in Christ’s Church.

Would Christ himself alter his decisions, beliefs, or teachings merely to accomadate those that did not like what he said? I am not saying that the Catholic Church is 100% right all the time about everything, but it is supposed to be as Christ like as possible. That is the goal of any true Christian.

Hope it helps, if not, by all means ask some more.

Peace and all good things

Ten

 

[Marc_Anthony]

**Individuals make up the Church yes, but do not dictate it’s truth. **

I just wanted to repeat this excellent quote for emphasis.

 

[Rence]

I believe you answer your own question here my friend:

Catholics as a whole, across the board, will never believe everything 100%. That is a given, but I direct you once again to your statement above, or at least the first part of it.

“Yes the dogma and the teachings have been consistent” This makes the Catholic Church across the globe united in it’s belief. Individuals make up the Church yes, but do not dictate it’s truth.

Ok, I get it, your statement was in reference to the leaders of the Church. I thought you meant the Church as a whole, including it’s “members”.

But I don’t agree that the Catholic Church across the globe is united in its belief. When people are not in agreement with the Holy See, they just leave (or adopt what they believe to be true and as a result get excommunicated), just like any other religion. One can say, yes, they left and the remainder is still faithful to the original Church, but that makes it the same as any other religion in that regard.

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding, and taking the time to explain what you meant

 

[Teneas]

Ok, I get it, your statement was in reference to the leaders of the Church. I thought you meant the Church as a whole, including it’s “members”.

But I don’t agree that the Catholic Church across the globe is united in its belief. When people are not in agreement with the Holy See, they just leave (or adopt what they believe to be true and as a result get excommunicated), just like any other religion. One can say, yes, they left and the remainder is still faithful to the original Church, but that makes it the same as any other religion in that regard.

Thank you very much for your patience and understanding, and taking the time to explain what you meant

You are welcome.

Those people that leave are not Catholic anymore though are they? They remove themselves from the unity. Even if they remain within the Church, so to speak, they removed themselves from that unity. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the Church itself is not unified. The Church is unified in it’s teachings, belief’s, and doctrine. There will always be those across the globe that choose to believe differently, even inside your very own Catholic Church.

Again, I agree with you about individuals, as we are graced with free will. It’s a shame that some people either can’t grasp our beliefs, or simply don’t want to accept them due to their own flawed human nature. I am not knocking them at all, simple stating the facts about it.

 

[Rence]

You are welcome.

Those people that leave are not Catholic anymore though are they? They remove themselves from the unity. Even if they remain within the Church, so to speak, they removed themselves from that unity.

Actually, they are. The Church teaches that an indelible mark is made on the soul by Baptism, and teaches that once Baptised, one is always and forever Catholic. So by it’s own rules and standards, they include those who have chosen to leave the Church among their ‘members’. If they didn’t teach this, I’d agree with you. But beause of their teaching, I can’t. Even if one formally petitions to leave the Church, the Church still owns them as Catholic, though dissenting Catholics the same.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that the Church itself is not unified. The Church is unified in it’s teachings, belief’s, and doctrine. There will always be those across the globe that choose to believe differently, even inside your very own Catholic Church.

Again, I agree with you about individuals, as we are graced with free will. It’s a shame that some people either can’t grasp our beliefs, or simply don’t want to accept them due to their own flawed human nature. I am not knocking them at all, simple stating the facts about it.

Thanks again for being patient and explaining what you meant to me

 

[Teneas]

Actually, they are. The Church teaches that an indelible mark is made on the soul by Baptism, and teaches that once Baptised, one is always and forever Catholic. So by it’s own rules and standards, they include those who have chosen to leave the Church among their ‘members’. If they didn’t teach this, I’d agree with you. But beause of their teaching, I can’t. Even if one formally petitions to leave the Church, the Church still owns them as Catholic, though dissenting Catholics the same.

Very true. I stand corrected on my use of the term “no longer Catholic”. The Church does recognize them, and in fact most of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters as well as Catholic because they all hold a piece of the truth of the Church. I guess I went to your line of thinking of how the individual actually thinks about it. If that individual leaves the Church, they believe they are no longer Catholic. Funny how I went to individual thought, and you went to the official Church teaching.

Good conversation my friend.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by **guanophore
**
You have been misinformed, A. there is nothing corrupt about an indulgence.

I agree that God is a mystery, and that we will never be able to comprehend all of Him. However, He does want us to use our minds to understand Him as best we are able. Thinking and using reason to understand are part of how God created us, and He expects us to use these gifts to seek after Him and find Him.

Actually, only people can go corrupt. It is not possible for the Holy Bride of Christ to be corrupt.

What brings you here to CAF?

I will ignore what you said about indulgences.

Yes we have to use our reason to understand God, I agree, just that when we start to use reason to understand God, we must first know that we will never understand Him entirely, and you said it yourself to seek Him in first place.

That is what I said, the Church as a whole can’t go corrupt, when I meant parts I was referring to people.

Well, I attend a Catholic Church with my family every Sunday because I like to congregate with them, so why not learn about my Catholic brothers. I don’t want to be an ignorant, I need to learn about different denominations, religions, etc (why people believes this and that.). I’ve met a lot of Christians Catholics that are so ignorant about their own beliefs(Catholics who say that non-Catholic worship another Jesus, Catholics who really think relics and objects have powers, etc) , they made me think all Catholics were like that, so I joined this forum to avoid that ignorance.

God bless.