Church changed Sabbath to Sunday?

[burnside]

Acts 20:7,1 and Corinthians 16:2 refer to the first day of the week as the Lord’s Day.
Why aren’t the SDA blaming the Catholic Church for abolishing circumcision if they are responsible for sabotaging the Sabbath?
The SDA teach,not that we have a soul,but that each one of us
is a soul.Along with the founders of the Mormons and Jehovah
Witnesses,the SDA founder claimed to know when the Second Coming would occur.All three lost some credibility when their predictions failed to come true.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Needed to resurrect this thread and get more replies.

On another note, I was at my mom’s SDA church today, and the sermon was all about the Pope being the Antichrist and the Church being the little horn described in Daniel. I had to listen to this tripe (coming from a 15-year old speaker, nonetheless) for 40 minutes! Complete with Powerpoint! ARGH!

 

[AmandaPS]

Standard modus operandi unfortunately. How do you get through to people who believe in such conspiracy theories that can probably put Jack Chick to shame.

 

[Des]

Archbishop 10-K:

Needed to resurrect this thread and get more replies.

On another note, I was at my mom’s SDA church today, and the sermon was all about the Pope being the Antichrist and the Church being the little horn described in Daniel. I had to listen to this tripe (coming from a 15-year old speaker, nonetheless) for 40 minutes! Complete with Powerpoint! ARGH!

Just wondering why you would even want to set foot inside a church that constantly trashes on the Catholic Church.

 

[davy39]

The whole purpose of some churches, is to bash the Catholic church. I really wonder why people will set there and listen to this bigoted trash. We’ll pray for them.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

This is really very simple. Yes, the Church changed the Sabbath. Yes, the Church has that authority. You can find good Bible quotes to use against protestants about the Church’s authority. I’ve seen linked here by someone I know (EENS) this site as a defense for the Church from the Bible (and from history): xanga.com/item.aspx?user=CatholicCrusader&tab=weblogs&uid=68053383. The second “comment” is in defense of the Church from early Christian practice.

 

[Trad_Catholic]

Archbishop 10-K:

Needed to resurrect this thread and get more replies.

On another note, I was at my mom’s SDA church today, and the sermon was all about the Pope being the Antichrist and the Church being the little horn described in Daniel. I had to listen to this tripe (coming from a 15-year old speaker, nonetheless) for 40 minutes! Complete with Powerpoint! ARGH!

It is a mortal sin against the First Commandment and the virtue of Faith to go to a protestant “service.” To even enter into their “church” is at least, I would think, a venial sin.

 

[kristalyn]

I have a few thoughts.

1. Go here and ask: forums.catholic-convert.com (as I post this, the boards there seem to be down, but they’ll be up soon!) It’s Steve Ray’s boards, and I think there are probably some FORMER SDA’s there who can help you.
2. Remember that CHRIST rose from the dead on Sunday, that’s why we celebrate the Lord’s Day on that day. If anyone is still celebrating the OLD Sabbath, then they’re living under the OLD covenant and rejecting the Messiah, Christ!! That would be MY point in talking to a SDA (although I’m not talking to family…and that makes a big difference.)
3. I’d also take issue (and I DO and HAVE taken issue!!) with any church whose message is “The Catholic Church is…” blah blah blah. Why did that time in the SDA church not get used to preach the words of Christ? To send forth people in a spirit of peace and gospel truth? If they’re spending their time as a congregation just tearing down someone else, then that is evidence to me that they have no real message of their own.

I am sorry I don’t have more specific answers than that. Hope that helps!!

P.S Hey, Trad_Catholic—this young man appears to be fighting against his own SDA parents. I don’t think he’s attending a SDA church out of free choice. He needs our help to get out and away…not a note about potential sinfulness.

 

[SDA2RC]

Archbishop 10-K:

Did the Catholic Church change the Sabbath to Sunday?

Archbishop… Yes the Church did transfer a weekly observance from Saturday To Sunday. However, Saturday is still the OT and Jewish Sabbath, that cannot be changed. What most SDA’s dont realize is that when the Church says it was changed by the Church, they mean by the first century Church, the Apostles. If they want to follow the example of the Apostles and early Christians then they must keep Sunday.

However, it is clear from scripture that the Sabbath was added to the Law during the Exodus and was done away with at Christ’s cross. To get around this the Adventist’s make several assumptions that are not supported by the Bible.

Instead of dealing with when/if it was changed, I would admit that it was not changed, that the Seventh-Day Sabbath is still on Saturday. However, we as Christians are not bound to keep it. In fact, by keeping it we SDA’s deny the work of Christ on his cross. To this nearly all Christians attest, including those taught by the Apostles themselves. This will place the burden of proof on them. Then it gets even easier to deal with their “reasons”.

Brandon

 

[Des]

Trad_Catholic:

It is a mortal sin against the First Commandment and the virtue of Faith to go to a protestant “service.” To even enter into their “church” is at least, I would think, a venial sin.

Actually, I beleive it’s only a mortal sin to substitute a protestant service for the Catholic Mass.I do believe that unless they know thier Catholic faith well enough one should not set foot in there as to not get mislead.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Des:

Just wondering why you would even want to set foot inside a church that constantly trashes on the Catholic Church.

I have to go because I’m only 16 and I don’t have a car. My whole family is SDA. It’s as simple as that.

When I want to go to a real Mass, I have to walk to the Catholic church down the street.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

kristalyn:

P.S Hey, Trad_Catholic—this young man appears to be fighting against his own SDA parents. I don’t think he’s attending a SDA church out of free choice. He needs our help to get out and away…not a note about potential sinfulness.

You hit the nail right on the head!

I’d never attend a SDA church of my own free will, now that the Holy Spirit has enlightened me to the Truth in His true Church. Sadly, my mom has gotten me involved in pretty much all the youth activities they have (I have to stay there from 10 to 4. Pretty scary, huh?)

Like I was saying, I’m working on the conversion of everybody else around here.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The Divine-human relationship is based upon a covenant. Although God’s love for man never changes, He has revealed his truths gradually and has established and renewed his covenants in the course of history, ultimately revealed in the new and everlasting covenant of Christianity.

His first covenant was with two people, Adam and Eve. His next covenant, with an entire family, Noah’s. His next with a tribe, Abraham’s. Then he established a covenant with an entire nation, Israel, led by Moses. The last covenant was with all nations, Christianity. Notice the gradual growth of revealed truths as well as the gradual increase as to the numbers of those God share’s his covenant.

With each covenant, God establishes a new and transformed signs. With Adam, theologians interpret that the seventh-day rest was a sign of a covenant forged between God and Man.

In Genesis 2:3 “God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.”

Notice there’s no command to keep the seventh day holy. There’s no divine command at all. God rested on the seventh day, thereby blessing it and making it holy. No directives were given to man about this day until after the Exodus. Yet, God gave a Divine example to humanity which continues to be, for Catholics, the moral content of Ecclesiastical Law: after working six days, bless the seventh day and hallow it as a day of rest.

In other words, Sabbath was as sign of a covenant between God and Adam. Yet, with new convenants came new or transformed signs. With Noah’s covenant, the sign was a rainbow. With Abraham, circumcision. Later in Scripture, the Sabbath is transformed into a new sign of a covenant between God and Israel. Just as the rainbow was the sign of the Noahic covenant and circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, the Passover and the Sabbath of the decalogue were signs of the covenant between God and Israel (see Ex. 31:16,17; Ezek. 20:12).

This Sabbath sign or seal of God’s covenant is not new, however, it is a transformation of a sign of God’s covenant with Adam (see Gen. 2:1-3). The Sabbath sign of the Exodus had quite a few requirements (Ecclesiastical Laws) that existed nowhere in the history of Judaism until after God redeemed his people from Israel. See Deut 5:1-15 and Ezek 20:10-12.

To be continued…

 

[Des]

Archbishop 10-K:

You hit the nail right on the head!

I’d never attend a SDA church of my own free will, now that the Holy Spirit has enlightened me to the Truth in His true Church. Sadly, my mom has gotten me involved in pretty much all the youth activities they have (I have to stay there from 10 to 4. Pretty scary, huh?)

Like I was saying, I’m working on the conversion of everybody else around here.

Wow! I was assuming the SDA household as you called it were your roomates or something. Archbishop, go to this other forum below and tell them your story. I’m sure they could give you some more imput.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Catholic.Every little bit will help you know. Also, I don’t know if you’re ready for it or not but I would advise you to learn the Rosary and say it for the conversion of your family.

One question. What got you thinking about the Catholic Church since you have obvioulsy been bombarded with anti-catholic propaganda your entire life?

God Bless

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Just like the Exodus redemption event was remembered by the sabbath, the more glorious redemption event, that of Christ, is remembered by the day of our redemption, the Lord’s day.

We are to keep our sabbath (rest) on the Lord’s day according to the Church given the power to bind and loose by Jesus Christ. It is a sign which was transformed for Christianity, much like circumcision was transformed into Christian baptism, and the Passover was transformed into the Lord’s Supper of Eucharist.

Scripture tells us that we, as Christians are to worship God in spirit and truth, and no longer by the letter of the Torah. Christians from the 1st century have observed the transformed “sabbath” by keeping every day holy (continuous faith in Christ is the true sabbath rest), but especially the Lord’s Day. That continous rest, although begun here on earth for Christians, will be perfected in heaven.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD 50-110), a pupil of the Apostle John and the earliest Church Father to address this question, states that Christian converts have “**given up keeping the sabbath and now order their lives by the Lord’s Day instead, the day when life first dawned for us , thanks to him [Christ] and his death.” (Letter to the Magnesians 9 [A.D. 107]).

The theme of “God’s rest” (cf Gn 2:2) and the rest which he offered to the people of the Exodus when they entered the Promised Land (cf. Ex 33:14; Dt 3:20; 12:9; Jos 21:44; Ps 95:11) is re-read in the New Testament in the light of the definitive “Sabbath rest” (Heb 4:9) into which Christ himself has entered by his Resurrection. The People of God are called to enter into this same rest by persevering in Christ’s example of filial obedience (cf. Heb 4:3-16). (Pope John Paul II, Dies Domini, 8)

“On the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done” (Gn 2:2). Yet, Jesus himself declares in speaking of the Sabbath: “My Father is working still, and I am working” (Jn 5:17). Christ is doing the work of a NEW and everlasting creation!! As Christians, we affirm that God finished the glorious work of this NEW and everlasting creation on the day of Christ’s resurrection–the Lord’s Day–the transformed rest day–a new sign for a more glorious covenant!!

**

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I suggest you read all of Dies Domini as it seems the sabbath issue is quite important to you … as it should be.

**Dies Domini
**cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html

Here’s another excerpt:

The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God’s plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic stipulations but within the Decalogue, the “ten words” which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart. In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the Church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship with God, announced and expounded by biblical revelation. This is the perspective within which Christians need to rediscover this precept today. Although the precept may merge naturally with the human need for rest, it is faith alone which gives access to its deeper meaning and ensures that it will not become banal and trivialized. (ibid., 13)

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Des:

Also, I don’t know if you’re ready for it or not but I would advise you to learn the Rosary and say it for the conversion of your family.

One question. What got you thinking about the Catholic Church since you have obvioulsy been bombarded with anti-catholic propaganda your entire life?

God Bless

I have a rosary that I got from a friend (who I converted) and I’m working on memorizing it.

It was about a year ago… now that I think about it, this might seem like a really strange story.

Okay, here it goes:

I was working on a science fiction novel of mine. One of the main characters needed to be a clergyman of some sort. I didn’t want to use the stereotypical pagan priest/wizard, or invent a lame new religion, and a Protestant minister was too bland. So I made this character into a Catholic priest. As I was developing the story, I did a lot of research on the Catholic priesthood in order to make the guy more believeable. Researching the priesthood led to researching the sacraments and the hierarchy, then the Church itself, and then her doctrines, and on and on and on. I was consumed. Eventually, I wanted to be a priest myself. I’m working on discerning that vocation, so I’m not jumping to conclusions, but all that research just to write this book instigated a religious revival in myself, so I did some truth-search. Not surprisingly, I came to the Catholic Church. That’s my story.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Some Jewish scholarship that may be useful background when discussing the Sabbath with Sabbatarians.

**Jewish scholarship on Sabbath keeping agrees that the phraseology of the Sabbath-keeping commandment in Scripture does not fix the seventh day, but merely that the day referred to is that following any group of six consecutive days. In other words, that the “seventh day” = Saturday is a Jewish oral tradition, not a commandment of Scripture. **

From the Jewish Encyclopedia (1901-1906), “Sabbath and Sunday”…

It is recognized that the Sabbath as the symbol of the full content of Judaism is a fundamental institution; but the argument has been advanced that astronomy discredits the assumption of a universal cosmic seventh day (comp. Judah ha-Levi, “Cuzari,” ii. 20); and the notion of God’s “resting” on a certain day the beginning and ending of which are determined by terrestrial phenomena, is regarded as tinged with mythology.

Six days of labor are prescribed as clearly in the Sabbath law as is one day of rest; both must be religiously observed, which is impossible under prevailing conditions. **Furthermore, the phraseology of the commandment does not fix the six days (the definite article is not prefixed to [Hebrew given]); the definite article before “seventh” implies merely that the day referred to is that following any group of six consecutive days; the phrase “the seventh day” is found also in the Pessah law (Deut. xvi. 8), where it is evident that no fixed day of the week is intended. **

No obligation should be imposed that is impossible of fulfilment to the majority (B. B. 60b; Maimonides, “Yad,” Mamrim, ii. 5). To the Sabbath may be applied Ps. cxix. 126, in the sense often given it (Ber. ix. 5; Yer. Ber. vii. 17; Gi?. 60a), for now the Sabbath is “remembered,” not “observed,” just as Pesi?. R. 23 asserts is the case with non-Jews. The only consideration to be weighed is the unity of Israel. If all or most Jews were to observe Sabbath on the so-called first day in the manner in which it should be observed, namely, by abstention from work, the difficulty would be met without loss to true religion. This in substance is the contention of Samuel Hirsch and others.

In other words, according to Jewish scholarship, rest after six days is Divine Law, but that Saturday is the day of rest is merely custom based upon oral tradition and can be changed without breaking divine law.

To be continued …

 

[itsjustdave1988]

This same Jewish source indicates that originally, during Israel’s nomadic period, the Sabbath was not likely a fixed day, but varied based upon the lunar cycle. It was only when Israel settled in the land and became farmers that the Sabbath became something kept at regular intervals:

Probable Lunar Origin.

-Critical View:
The origin of the Sabbath, as well as the true meaning of the name, is uncertain. The earliest Biblical passages which mention it (Ex. xx. 10, xxxiv. 21; Deut. v. 14; Amos viii. 5) presuppose its previous existence, and analysis of all the references to it in the canon makes it plain that its observance was neither general nor altogether spontaneous in either pre-exilic or post-exilic Israel. It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence
(Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). The old Semites worshiped the moon and the stars (Hommel, “Der Gestirndienst der Alten Araber”). Nomads and shepherds, they regarded the night as benevolent, the day with its withering heat as malevolent. In this way the moon (“Sinai” = “moon “sin”] mountain”) became central in their pantheon. The moon, however, has four phases in approximately 28 days, and it seemingly comes to a standstill every seven days. Days on which the deity rested were considered taboo, or ill-omened. New work could not be begun, nor unfinished work continued, on such days. The original meaning of “Shabbat” conveys this idea …

The Sabbath depending, in Israel’s nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day. When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion. (ibid)

To be continued …

 

[itsjustdave1988]

This same Jewish source indicates that after the Babylonian Exile, Sabbath-keeping was interpreted with more strictness:

The Assyro-Babylonians may have had similar days of abstinence or propitiation (the 7th, 14th, 19th, 21st, and 28th of the month Elul), and contact with them may have served to lend the Jewish Sabbath a more austere character. The Assyrian calendar seems to disclose an effort to get rid of the movable Sabbath in favor of the fixed. If after the twenty-eighth day two days are intercalated as new-moon days, the 19th day becomes the 49th from the beginning of the next preceding month, as in the Feast of Weeks, in connection with which the emphasis on “complete Sabbaths” (“sheba’ Shabbot temimot”; Lev. xxiii. 15) is noteworthy. (ibid)

When discussing the Sabbath with Sabbatarians, they will attempt to convince you that Saturday = Sabbath is by the Word of God. However, even Jewish scholarship admits otherwise. It is rest and worship that is enjoined after six days of work, according the written Word of God. It’s not likely that Saturday was always the Sabbath for Judaism. Furthermore, it is a custom or oral tradition which asserts it to be Saturday, not Scripture. In other words, it is Eccesiastical law (not immutable) versus Divine law (immutable) that Saturday is the Sabbath day. The Church did not change the Divine Law, but did change Ecclesiastical Law from the Jewish custom.