Church closings...a sign of catholic failure?

[RebeccaJ]

We CAtholics just do our thing adn people flock in. a million new Catholics on Easter. Wow. no door to door sales staff, how DO we DO it?

Even backwater of the Catholic world, Utah, had about 600 adult converts received into the Church this past Easter. I looked at the stats once for 2007 and there were diocese in the southwest that baptized more than 1200 adults that year.

I am glad to hear that the Mormon missionaries are not having success with Catholics in Latin America.

whyme, did you see this in the Catholic news section?

 

[PaulDupre]

For some strange reason, you guys just can’t face up to the facts as stated in the newspaper:

The Camden Diocese serves an estimated 450,000 Catholics. Fifty years ago, 74 percent of Catholics could be counted on to attend at least one Mass a week. Today, it is fewer than 24 percent.

The number of priests is also dwindling. In 2005, the diocese had 171 priests. But retirements are taking their toll, and the number of new priests does not come close to keeping up. By 2015, the diocese expects to have only 85 priests - nowhere near enough to staff 124 parishes.

These deserve red letters because these are important facts. Catholics are not going to Mass and a shortage of priests. Now it is here that the discussion should take place. Catholics not going to mass, means, less money in the collection and a shortage of priests means that churches need to close down.

Now the mormons have their members paying 10% and this certainly helps with expenses for lds churches and temples and could be attempted by catholic churches but it would not solve the catholic priest shortage problem.

The “priesthood shortage” is a diocesan phenomenon. In the Diocese of Boston there are very few, if any, seminarians right now. That is largely because of the scandal caused by their former bishop, which has bankrupted and virtually destroyed the diocese.

In the Diocese of Orange, CA where I live, there is a waiting list to get into the seminaries and the parishes are overflowing. New churches are constantly under construction. My parish has been there since 1961, but we built a new church 3 years ago to accommodate the tremendous growth. We have 5 masses every Sunday - they’re all very well attended. We also have 4 full-time priests, 1 semi-retired priest and 2 permanent deacons. We are about to break ground on a new rectory.

By contrast, drive past any LDS chapel on Sunday morning and witness the near-empty parking lot. More people are leaving the LDS church than are joining and the exodus has barely begun.

Also, the Catholic Church will never extort funds from her members the way the LDS Church does. The LDS Church infantilizes its members by making all of their spiritual decisions for them. Those who want to approach God as adults have to leave. We follow the biblical method - people give as moved upon by the spirit. Some give a lot, some give a little. That is part of spiritual adulthood.

Paul

 

[AgnosTheist]

Muslims are far more tolerant of Christians than vice-versa.

That was true in the past. But not in the present and the foreseeable future.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From the USCCB website…

“The number of priests available for pastoral ministry has not kept up with this extraordinary Church growth. Eight-two percent of dioceses and eparchies report that they have fewer priests relative to their pastoral needs compared to a decade ago. The shortage is most reported in the Midwest and the West, and least reported in the Northeast and the South.”

This is from a study that the USCCB did in 2000. You can read more here.

 

[Contarini]

Interesting.

I think the disappearance of Catholicism will probably take a couple of centuries. What you’re seeing now is the disappearance of anglophone Catholics in the U.S. and Canada, which will probably be complete in about 50 years. That’s not really comparable.

religions.pewforum.org/portraits

If you look at the data here you can draw some really interesting conclusions. Catholicism is disappearing three times as fast as the next highest denomination. (10% of Catholics have left Catholicism, just in the last generation).

Catholics seem to have a slightly higher birthrate than the mean, but they’re also quite a bit less educated and wealthy too.

Bear in mind that there are French and Spanish speaking Catholics in North America who look upon religion as an inherent aspect of their ethnic identities.

As the children of immigrants grow smarter and richer (to put it bluntly) they might end up leaving too.

European Catholicism will probably be allowed to survive as a small, minority religion even under an Islamic Europe (which is projected to happen in 50 years).

weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/685ozxcq.asp

So you’ll see the Vatican paying the jizyah tax for a century, before finally fading away. Or, perhaps it will hang on, like the Christians in the Arab world do, as a tiny minority which segregates itself along religious lines. Muslims are far more tolerant of Christians than vice-versa.

This kind of pontification costs nothing and is no doubt vastly enjoyable for the pontificator. But you join a long host of predecessors who have confidently predicted the disappearance of “Romanism.” I see no reason to treat your statements with any greater respect than I treat those laughably false prognostications of the past.

Edwin

 

[BartBurk]

How many converts to Catholicism are reading this thread? I don’t think I joined a dying religion. In fact the Catholic converts in my area each year are at least 10 times the number of converts to our local Mormon wards. It’s not even close. And most of the converts to Mormonism around here aren’t attending after a couple of years while the Catholic converts tend to stay. As I said, I don’t think the Catholic Church is dying though some of the nominal Catholics may be slipping away. And many of those are like Paul Dupre – as adults they revert back to Catholicism.

 

[Nordar]

How many converts to Catholicism are reading this thread? I don’t think I joined a dying religion. In fact the Catholic converts in my area each year are at least 10 times the number of converts to our local Mormon wards. It’s not even close. And most of the converts to Mormonism around here aren’t attending after a couple of years while the Catholic converts tend to stay. As I said, I don’t think the Catholic Church is dying though some of the nominal Catholics may be slipping away. And many of those are like Paul Dupre – as adults they revert back to Catholicism.

It’s not dying in fact it is attracting more and more converts, The Priest shortage is only in some areas, the Seminaries in NY a full of young men wanting to be Priests!
I was at The Cathedral Seminary in Douglaston NY about a month ago, first of all it is huge, and full of Seminarians,

 

[why_me]

How many converts to Catholicism are reading this thread? I don’t think I joined a dying religion. In fact the Catholic converts in my area each year are at least 10 times the number of converts to our local Mormon wards. It’s not even close. And most of the converts to Mormonism around here aren’t attending after a couple of years while the Catholic converts tend to stay. As I said, I don’t think the Catholic Church is dying though some of the nominal Catholics may be slipping away. And many of those are like Paul Dupre – as adults they revert back to Catholicism.

I don’t think that you joined a dying religion. I see the problem more as getting people to go to church on a sunday. As the article stated many catholics in that area do not go to church. They perhaps see no need to do so.

I have no idea what the activity rate is for catholic converts. But I am sure that many lose their fire after awhile and develop a routine of attending and not attending.

And if the mormon church is having such problems, why is catholic answers sending out mormon threat emails?

 

[why_me]

The “priesthood shortage” is a diocesan phenomenon. In the Diocese of Boston there are very few, if any, seminarians right now. That is largely because of the scandal caused by their former bishop, which has bankrupted and virtually destroyed the diocese.

By contrast, drive past any LDS chapel on Sunday morning and witness the near-empty parking lot. More people are leaving the LDS church than are joining and the exodus has barely begun.

Also, the Catholic Church will never extort funds from her members the way the LDS Church does. The LDS Church infantilizes its members by making all of their spiritual decisions for them. Those who want to approach God as adults have to leave. We follow the biblical method - people give as moved upon by the spirit. Some give a lot, some give a little. That is part of spiritual adulthood.

Paul

Well this post is a very biased post. I would not say that the lds church extorts funds. It encourages people to pay a tithe and most do. It also claims that blessings will come from paying an honest tithe and many lds claim that blessings come to them. I see no problem with that. To each his or her own. The biblical method is usually 10 percent of the income. In fact, I hear some protestant preachers say the same, at least the ones on TV.

And as far as empty parking lots, I think that the lds church is also growing. I see no temples closing down, but more are being built. And again, if more people are leaving the lds church than joining, why is catholic answers asking for money to fight the mormon threat?

All faiths are experiencing retention problems these days. I think that it is a sign of the times as atheism makes inroads into the human conscienceness.

 

[dosdog]

Qatar’s first Catholic Church will be inaugurated in February
Doha, Sep. 26, 2007 (CWNews.com) - The first Catholic church in Qatar, dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary, will be consecrated in February 2008, the AsiaNews service reports.
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10388&size=A

China Catholics throng to church
Sunday, 23 September 2007
Beijing’s Southern Cathedral has the kind of congregation many Catholic churches in Europe can only dream of attracting. There are no official ties between China and the Vatican, despite attempts by both sides over recent months to overcome their differences. But that does not seem to matter to the faithful at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to give the Beijing church its full name. The solid-looking brick cathedral, founded in 1605 by Jesuit Matteo Ricci, is the base of newly-appointed Beijing Bishop Father Joseph Li Shan
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7009165.stm

Do you fear that this, your perception of the church’s failure to address your favorite issue—or to take the orthodox or radical position that you espouse, will cause the church to lose most of its members?

The Roman Catholic continues to grow globally. It has even reversed the trend in defections from her to pentecostal and evangelical churches in Latin America.
manilatimes.net/national/2007/apr/08/yehey/top_stories/20070408top1.html

Muslims converts face ostracism in France
Muslims are converting to Christianity in their thousands in France but face exclusion from their families and even death threats. The Muezzin call to prayer. But here in France it is no longer reaching all Muslim ears.

Around 15,000 Muslims each year are converting to Christianity - around 10,000 to Catholicism and 5,000 to Protestantism. Many Muslims in France hide their conversion but the trend is continuing. World wide around six million Muslims a year convert to Christianity
iris.org.il/blog/archives/2230-Muslims-Converting-to-Christianity-by-the-Thousands-in-France.html

 

[why_me]

The priest shortage evidently goes back to the collapse of morale in the '70s, and also to the recent scandal, which is a consequence of that collapse.

This has much to do with it too. I think that many catholics were affected by the scandal. The catholic church made a mistake in how it was handled but I think that they have learned from their mistake. But for some catholics, they will never recover from the abuse scandals.

The idea: ‘How can god allow such a priest to serve for so long’ will be a part of their mindset.

 

[why_me]

It’s a newspaper article with a date of Monday. You’re trying to tell us that some priest went to the trouble of photocopying it or typing it out, printing out a mailing list, and mailing them out, all on the same day, just so that you could receive it by yesterday and rush here to post it?

I call horsehockey on that one. Priests are very busy people, as we know, and unless your parish is one slated to be closed, I don’t know why we’re supposed to think he’d do this. Even if your parish is one to be closed, it’s far more likely that your priest would spend at least a few days composing a thoughtful letter to his parishioners.

I think you cut and pasted it from here:

pressofatlanticcity.com/146/story/125900.html

There are priests who notify their parishioners by email of weekly events in the parish and also send with these notices, noteworthy news articles. I think that this is a good way to stay in touch with the parishioners without spending a lot of cash. The priest notifies the parishioners who to notify that week if they need ‘Good Semaritan’ help or Knights of Columbus happenings etc.

I don’t think that it is uncommon.

 

[dosdog]

This has much to do with it too. I think that many catholics were affected by the scandal. The catholic church made a mistake in how it was handled but I think that they have learned from their mistake. But for some catholics, they will never recover from the abuse scandals.

The idea: ‘How can god allow such a priest to serve for so long’ will be a part of their mindset.

Synopsis: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is finding itself the subject of lawsuits alleging sexual abuse. As with the incidents within the Catholic Church, Mormon officials are accused of knowing about the abuse, not reporting it to the police, and trying to contain the information. NPR’s Howard Berkes says dozens of lawsuits are now being prepared against the Mormon Church. (8:11)
kosnoff.com/CM/Articles/Articles103.asp

SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
Special Report
by Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

 

[RebeccaJ]

Welcome back dosdog.

 

[dosdog]

Welcome back dosdog.

Thank you Mrs. Rebecca - Hope everthing is well with you
DD

 

[why_me]

Synopsis: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is finding itself the subject of lawsuits alleging sexual abuse. As with the incidents within the Catholic Church, Mormon officials are accused of knowing about the abuse, not reporting it to the police, and trying to contain the information. NPR’s Howard Berkes says dozens of lawsuits are now being prepared against the Mormon Church. (8:11)
kosnoff.com/CM/Articles/Articles103.asp

The problem with the lds church is that the bishopric is made up of average people who also work for a living. It is a very localized way of doing things. And being local yokels they have made mistakes in this issue.

There is always a possiblity that the bishop may find himself out of his league over these types of problems (When someone reports abuse). And bishops have made mistakes. But I think now there is a more clear cut policy over this type of issue. And unfortunately, if a local bishop goofs, the church organization in Utah is to blame according to lawyers.

And the same thought goes through a Mormon mind too: How could god allow this man (bishop) to make such a mistake!

And so, mormons have local yokels doing their priesthood and church callings but the catholic church has people in professions or vocations and it went straight up to the pope, I believe.

 

[why_me]

However this thread is not about sex abuse but about the newspaper article. A poster mentioned the sex abuse scandals as having influence in catholics going to mass or not.

 

[why_me]

Welcome back dosdog.

I thought he was banned! I did find it strange that he was not heard from and that led me to that conclusion.

 

[LaMar]

Hey Why Me,

However this thread is not about sex abuse but about the newspaper article. A poster mentioned the sex abuse scandals as having influence in catholics going to mass or not.

The reason the pew study shows Mormons holding steady (population wise) is due to their (very) large families. If LDS family size approached the national average, you’d see a net loss in members, though it wouldn’t be as pronounced as the Catholic loss. I’d imagine the slump in overall growth is probably due (at least in part) to exactly this sort of abuse and misbehavior.

I’ve always thought that the “professional laity” which runs the wards and stakes in Utah (excluding metro Salt Lake City) was a big problem. Where I live now, the vast majority of Mormons are upper middle class (attorneys, physicians, etc.) who are competent to manage a ward. In Utah, it’s common for a bishop to be a guy who works in a restaurant or a supermarket. He’s too often in it for the ego trip. It isn’t universal, but it’s much more common there than elsewhere. As bishops and sps screw up (nepotism, covering up crimes, etc.) it’s a good incentive for people to become disgusted and leave.

If I lived in my parents’ ward, I’m sure I would have long ago been excommunicated. So would you, probably for nothing more than having friendships with priests and nuns. My parents’ bishop is a good example of a total nobody who practices unrighteous dominion on a regular basis. (He’s a very financially successful fellow who has some serious insecurity issues, and his personal life is a mess).

The reference to sex abuse lawsuits are a relevant example of exactly the sort of thing which convinces regular people to quit wasting their time in an organization – Mormon, Catholic, or Secular.

 

[dosdog]

The problem with the lds church is that the bishopric is made up of average people who also work for a living. It is a very localized way of doing things. And being local yokels they have made mistakes in this issue.

There is always a possiblity that the bishop may find himself out of his league over these types of problems (When someone reports abuse). And bishops have made mistakes. But I think now there is a more clear cut policy over this type of issue. And unfortunately, if a local bishop goofs, the church organization in Utah is to blame according to lawyers.

And the same thought goes through a Mormon mind too: How could god allow this man (bishop) to make such a mistake!

And so, mormons have local yokels doing their priesthood and church callings but the catholic church has people in professions or vocations and it went straight up to the pope, I believe.

CATHOLIC CHURCH ADVISED TO SUE ‘SEX-EXPERTS’ WHO COUNSELLED PEDOPHILE PRIESTS
NEW YORK (NY)
Life Site

NEW YORK, January 14, 2003 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Dr. Judith Reisman, Ph. D., the researcher who uncovered the fraud underpinning the field of sexology created by Dr. Alfred Kinsey, has advised the Catholic Church to sue the so-called sex “experts” who advised the Bishops and allegedly “treated” sex abuser priests. An article by the Catholic Citizens of Illinois and The Wanderer Press points out that Reisman believes that the ‘treatments’ given to predator priests in Kinsey-inspired therapy sessions were so grossly ineffective, that the Catholic Church and the victims of clerical sexual abuse have a legal claim against these sex clinics for medical malpractice.
poynter.org/column.asp?id=46&aid=17303