Church Contradiction on Female Lectors?

[Goblin_Taters]

It seems to me that there is a contradiction among Pope Paul VI, the S.C.D.W. and Pope John Paul II when it comes to the matter of female altar servers. I have added italics to the following passages to highlight key words.

**Pope Paul VI: **

“The office of the lector, and it is proper to him, is to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly. Accordingly, it will be his task to read the lessons from the scripture (but not from the gospel) at Mass and at other sacred functions…”
*
(Ministeria Quaedam)*

“The offices of lector and acolyte are reserved to men, in keeping with the venerable tradition of the Church.”

(Ministeria Quaedam)

S.C.D.W.:

“The traditional liturgical norms of the Church prohibit women (young girls, married women, religious) from serving the priest at the altar…”

(Liturgiae Instaurationes)

“In accordance with the rules governing this matter; women may: (a) Proclaim the scripture readings, with the exception of the gospel…”

(Liturgiae Instaurationes)

Pope John Paul II:

“There are, of course,* various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the Intention of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers*.”

(Inaestimabile Donum)

**Summary: **
Paul VI: The position of lector is only to be filled by men. The man’s duty is to read the Word of God in the liturgical assembly.

S.C.D.W.: Women cannot serve the priest at the altar. They can proclaim the Scripture readings, with the exception of the gospel reading (act as lectors?).

Pope John Paul II: Women can read the Word of God. They cannot though act as altar servers.

Conclusions:

It seems that the view of Paul VI is at odds with that of the S.C.D.W. and Pope John Paul II when it comes to the issue of female lectors. Paul VI says that in the liturgical context only men may act as lectors, that is read the Word of God which is their proper duty. John Paul II and the S.C.D.W. seem to me to be saying, while not using the word “lector,” that women may act as lectors–that is, that women in the liturgical context may read the Word of God (with the exception of the gospel, according to the S.C.D.W.).

What do you think?

On the issue of female altar servers, John Paul II and the S.C.D.W. both state that women may not serve the priest at the altar. Although I’m not aware of any explicit statement to the effect, I imagine Paul VI would agree with them on this on.

 

[ncjohn]

Lector is an instituted ministry, reserved to men. “Reading” is not.

John Paul II did eventually write the instruction permitting women to serve as altar servers. There is at least some evidence that this was a concession to places where this was already being done, but even if that is true, the choice was made to allow it rather than repudiate it.

Either way, both items are matters of discipline and changeable at the Pope’s discretion.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by ncjohn:

Either way, both items are matters of discipline and changeable at the Pope’s discretion.

I suppose it’s the Pope’s perogative if he wants to break with the venerable tradition of the Church.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by ncjohn:

Lector is an instituted ministry, reserved to men. “Reading” is not.

It is proper to the lector, as an instituted minister, to “Read” the Word of God, the Scripture, in the liturgical assembly.

Whether you call them “lectors” or not, women who proclaim the Scripture in the liturgical assembly are indeed acting in the role of lectors and should be viewed in this light accordingly.

 

[ncjohn]

It is proper to the lector, as an instituted minister, to “Read” the Word of God, the Scripture, in the liturgical assembly.

Whether you call them “lectors” or not, women who proclaim the Scripture in the liturgical assembly are indeed acting in the role of lectors and should be viewed in this light accordingly.

The Church apparently disagrees, though in the TLM this view does stand.

We are free to agree or disagree with whether we think it’s the right approach, but in the end, it’s still in someone else’s hands.

 

[RobDH]

I suppose it’s the Pope’s perogative if he wants to break with the venerable tradition of the Church.

Vernerable tradition or not, it is, indeed, his perogative in all matters of discipline.

 

[Windmill]

Readers are to lectors as servers are to acolytes.

Lectors and Acolytes were minor orders (now ministries), and are only semnarians in formation for the priesthood. Lectors and acolytes are instituted, and are therefore only males,

Readers and servers are lay substitutes for instituted ministries, and the church allows females in these substitutional roles.

 

[Genesis315]

Only giving Communion in one species broke with the venerable tradition. So did not giving Communion to infants or vey young children (which St. Pius X partially restored–he lowered the age a lot). The Church has the authority to do these things.

 

[scylla]

The Pope has the ability to change these type of disciplines. Though it might be ignoring tradition, might be wrong or even detrimental to the faith of millions, this doesn’t affect the truth of Catholicism or infallibility of the Pope.

The Pope can be a horrible administrator, sin horribly, make imprudent and contradictory decisions on discipline, yet this will never affect the truth of the Faith. The faithful might suffer yet this has happened many times in the past and the Church will endure.

The Pope still needs to be respected and prayed for as he has an enormous responsibility and is only a man. God provides the Grace for him to carry out his job and not destroy the Church as it can’t be destroyed. A Pope though is not perfect, and can make mistakes.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Windmill:

Readers are to lectors as servers are to acolytes.

Lectors and Acolytes were minor orders (now ministries), and are only semnarians in formation for the priesthood. Lectors and acolytes are instituted, and are therefore only males,

Readers and servers are lay substitutes for instituted ministries, and the church allows females in these substitutional roles.

Paul VI, in his Ministeria quaeam, does in fact state:

“Orders which up to now have been called ‘minor,’ will henceforth be known as ‘ministries.’ Ministries may be committed to lay Christians. They are thus no longer to be regarded as reserved to candidates for the sacrament of orders.”

Paul VI states the above right before his declaration in the same document, previously quoted:

“The offices of lector and acolyte are reserved to men, in keeping with the venerable tradition of the Church.”

 

[BobP123]

Keep the readings in Latin and you won’t have too many fighting to become readers.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Genesis315:

Only giving Communion in one species broke with the venerable tradition. So did not giving Communion to infants or vey young children (which St. Pius X partially restored–he lowered the age a lot). The Church has the authority to do these things.

Well, you can believe what you will.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by scylla:

The Pope has the ability to change these type of disciplines. Though it might be ignoring tradition, might be wrong or even detrimental to the faith of millions, this doesn’t affect the truth of Catholicism or infallibility of the Pope.

What’s at the fore of the Christian life: the Institution or the Truth itself?

 

[Genesis315]

What’s at the fore of the Christian life: the Institution or the Truth itself?

You can’t really separate the two. And you have to be able to distinguish between the immutable truth revealed by God and the rules of the Church which can be changed.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Posted by Genesis315:

You can’t really separate the two. And you have to be able to distinguish between the immutable truth revealed by God and the rules of the Church which can be changed.

No, I don’t have to be able to distinguish anything. It’s all done for me from above. I just have to accept and be open to the persuasion of intelligent theologians.

 

[Man]

It seems to me that there is a contradiction among Pope Paul VI, the S.C.D.W. and Pope John Paul II when it comes to the matter of female altar servers. I have added italics to the following passages to highlight key words.

**Pope Paul VI: **

“The office of the lector, and it is proper to him, is to read the word of God in the liturgical assembly. Accordingly, it will be his task to read the lessons from the scripture (but not from the gospel) at Mass and at other sacred functions…”
*
(Ministeria Quaedam)*

“The offices of lector and acolyte are reserved to men, in keeping with the venerable tradition of the Church.”

(Ministeria Quaedam)

S.C.D.W.:

“The traditional liturgical norms of the Church prohibit women (young girls, married women, religious) from serving the priest at the altar…”

(Liturgiae Instaurationes)

“In accordance with the rules governing this matter; women may: (a) Proclaim the scripture readings, with the exception of the gospel…”

(Liturgiae Instaurationes)

Pope John Paul II:

“There are, of course,* various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the Intention of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers*.”

(Inaestimabile Donum)

**Summary: **
Paul VI: The position of lector is only to be filled by men. The man’s duty is to read the Word of God in the liturgical assembly.

S.C.D.W.: Women cannot serve the priest at the altar. They can proclaim the Scripture readings, with the exception of the gospel reading (act as lectors?).

Pope John Paul II: Women can read the Word of God. They cannot though act as altar servers.

Conclusions:

It seems that the view of Paul VI is at odds with that of the S.C.D.W. and Pope John Paul II when it comes to the issue of female lectors. Paul VI says that in the liturgical context only men may act as lectors, that is read the Word of God which is their proper duty. John Paul II and the S.C.D.W. seem to me to be saying, while not using the word “lector,” that women may act as lectors–that is, that women in the liturgical context may read the Word of God (with the exception of the gospel, according to the S.C.D.W.).

What do you think?

On the issue of female altar servers, John Paul II and the S.C.D.W. both state that women may not serve the priest at the altar. Although I’m not aware of any explicit statement to the effect, I imagine Paul VI would agree with them on this on.

These things need to be interpreted within the culture that they exist/ed. Contemplate that.

 

[Windmill]

Seminarians used to receive the order of tonsure after a few years of seminary. This initiated them into the clerical state. Later, they received the minor orders of porter, lector, exorcist, and acolyte (IOW, they were clerics when they received these minor orders). Since the church does not normally use minor orders anymore, we properly refer to seminarians as laymen. When Paul VI ays that these ministries are received by laymen, it is entirely correct. However, practically speaking, these laymen are seminarians in line for the priesthood. You don’t see instituted lectors and acolytes much anymore outside of a seminary. Why? Well, I bet you can guess why…

 

[scylla]

I would say the primary reason why we do not have instituted Lectors or Acolytes is because we have many wimpy Bishops.

Yes there are some real men who are Bishops who have instituted Lectors and Acolytes. But since these have to be men most the Bishops don’t have the guts to institute Lectors or Acolytes.

If you doubt this just call your local diocese and ask why. I did and the answer was disgusting in its mindlessness.

…
Now what do you mean by this question?

What’s at the fore of the Christian life: the Institution or the Truth itself?

The truth, even when the Bishops or Priests deny it, it doesn’t change the truth.

Many people have not realized that tradition reflects truth, so they think that tradition is just something we do instead of a symbol of truth, a reflection of it and a way to represent it.
Many of the dissident Catholics do not realize this and then just try to change traditions to fit their own version of Catholicism.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[8640]

The office of lector is not simply reading at Mass. It is a step toward ordination and it involves a ceremony whereby the bishop entrusts the sacred scriptures to the man and exhorts him to make the scriptures part of his life so that he may encourage his fellow christians in their journey. So, the point isn’t so much reading at mass, but being a guardian of the scriptures for the church.

I think this confusion is just arising from confusing language…

 

[John_Lilburne]

My reading of the liturgical books is that instituted lectors should be used when available. In practice I do not see this followed. I think this is a problem.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“101. In the absence of an instituted lector, other laypersons may be commissioned to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture.”

But at recent Midnight Masses of Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI we see one reading by an instituted lector and another by a woman. At a local level I rarely see instituted lectors reading at Mass, despite seminarians who have been instituted attending. In my own case I have been instituted as a lector, but am rarely able to fulfil this, despite bringing a Tribunal case in 2000 (the process for enforcing the Code of Canon Law).

A few problems this causes:

1. It damages the Church’s credibility.
2. Ordained ministers are failing to follow their Oath of Fidelity.
3. Seminarians get a distorted formation for the priesthood.

Reports on Midnight Masses are at romanrite.com/robert.html . More on Instituted Lectors are at romanrite.com/Lectors.html .