Church Exorcist and Pro Life Priest Warns Against Harry Potter

[styrgwillidar]

Pfff. Military-style guns are overrated and lack finesse. If you’re gonna combine the two, you’ll find no better example than in stuff like Devil May Cry and Final Fantasy.

Gunblades and Gun Kata FTW!! >XD

The finesse depends on the user. I just think that the series could have been more interesting, since its set in the current time period, showing more interaction with the normal world. (Hence a typical miltary sniper rifle in an alternate ending involving Dudley joining military to avoid jailtime over minor incident, similar to how one of my cousins became a marine)

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Oh, no! I didn’t mean to have an opinion. I’ll back off now.

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second. (In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely)…You’re defending books and movies that are being obsessed over by children and teens (who may or may not be YOU: Catholic/Christian adults with a wonderful distinction between right and wrong), you’re defending books and movies that discuss magic as being both good and bad (what!?), you’re defending books and movies that are immensely in the “Grey” area (this world does not need the Grey, but sadly, here we are…Satan is cheering right now as that is his favorite color.)

Please, for once! Just step back! Believe me, this topic has brought me to doing my research too…since I was not always on the opposing side. But hey, if we want truth, we seek it!

We should want our kids to fill their minds with the right stuff. These books are not harmless…

You’re in my prayers.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Oh, no! I didn’t mean to have an opinion. I’ll back off now.

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second. (In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely)…

Anew? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like you’re accusing us of not being objective. What are you saying? That we try looking at it from your perspective? Well, I’m sorry but objectively, your perspective IS flawed. Every anti-Potter “argument” so far, goes against every single rule of logic. You can’t dump logic when it’s not in your favor and you can’t accuse us of just wanting to win a debate when the very purpose of debate is to arrive at that which is true.

Tell me something, how much do you know on the subject of Literary Criticism? How much experience do you have writing fiction? Have you ever even created a magical fantasy character? Believe it or not, these are very objective questions that touch on very objective subjects. It is on objective grounds that we condemn O’Brien as inconsistent, biased, and just downright unfair. It is not because we are too in love with Harry Potter. I for one have many other fantasy series that I love just as much (perhaps even more).

Now this time, why don’t you ask yourself similar questions. Perhaps the reason why you can’t accept our arguments is because you have an emotional attachment with the anti-Potter movement? Perhaps you may have some personal, emotional reasons why you don’t like other people defending the books?

You’re defending books and movies that are being obsessed over by children and teens (who may or may not be YOU: Catholic/Christian adults with a wonderful distinction between right and wrong)

So you’re saying just because something is popular it is… bad? :ehh: In that case, that throws out a lot of things people can also obsess over. Work. Sports. Cars. Sex. One’s love life. Career. Academic performance. Even religion, believe it or not (just look at the Pharisees, both ancient and modern). The list can be endless.

I think you should realize by now that it’s really obsession itself that is the problem and not the object of obsession. :coffeeread:

you’re defending books and movies that discuss magic as being both good and bad (what!?)

Define “magic”. Might I remind you, I’ve presented to you an argument from semantics and your reply to that is still due. Furthermore, it will remain due every time you make a claim regarding the morality of “magic” unless you address it.

you’re defending books and movies that are immensely in the “Grey” area (this world does not need the Grey, but sadly, here we are…Satan is cheering right now as that is his favorite color.)

Okay, now that’s just absolutely wrong. Grey implies neutral. Satan has just as much to lose in the gray area as God. It is not a matter of need, gray areas are just as they are. They just are. They are a fact of reality. They’re proof that not everything is simple. And to be honest, I can appreciate the complexity gray areas bring. If everything was just simply black and white, life would be a lot more boring as it already is (at least to me ). At the very least, gray areas give us a chance to sit down and think. I’m not saying this is you, but I generally find that a lot of anti-Potter (and anti-Fantasy) people don’t think a lot.

The morality of things in the gray area depend on what they can add to your life, be it good or ill. If it’s ill, then that’s one point to Satan. However, if it’s good, then it’s one point for God.

Please, for once! Just step back! Believe me, this topic has brought me to doing my research too…since I was not always on the opposing side. But hey, if we want truth, we seek it!

Believe me girl, we’ve heard enough of the opposing side for years. What you’ve researched is nothing new. You’ve wasted your time. Sorry. You’re only adding to people’s scrupulosity by trying to find validity with what is inherently an invalid position to begin with.

We should want our kids to fill their minds with the right stuff. These books are not harmless…

Yeah well even the “right stuff” can be harmful (Bible justifying slavery anybody?) and that which you deem as harmful (e.g. Harry Potter) may turn out to be the right stuff. I seriously implore to think about that.

 

[estesbob]

Oh, no! I didn’t mean to have an opinion. I’ll back off now.

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second. (In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely)…You’re defending books and movies that are being obsessed over by children and teens (who may or may not be YOU: Catholic/Christian adults with a wonderful distinction between right and wrong), you’re defending books and movies that discuss magic as being both good and bad (what!?), you’re defending books and movies that are immensely in the “Grey” area (this world does not need the Grey, but sadly, here we are…Satan is cheering right now as that is his favorite color.)

Please, for once! Just step back! Believe me, this topic has brought me to doing my research too…since I was not always on the opposing side. But hey, if we want truth, we seek it!

We should want our kids to fill their minds with the right stuff. These books are not harmless…

You’re in my prayers.

Michael Obriens critiques are badly written in the eyes of anyone who has read the books.

 

[Mumbles140]

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second. (In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely)

I’m not a literary critic, but we’ve seen a well-written, clear, and concise critique of O’Brien’s works that show he is inconsistent with the application of his opinions and then seemingly picks and chooses what he deems to make his opinion right. More importantly, no one has provided a response addressing the specific points made against O’Brien. That being said, I think it is, at least to this point, proven to be an objective literary analysis.

Then, you seem to be using the defense that his intentions are good, so we should support him. We acknowledge the power of Satan in everyday life, we are aware of how real and present the threat is. Our opinion is that the content contained in Harry Potter does not promote the occult, and we have not yet seen actual effects of someone falling into the Occult because of Harry Potter alone.

To bring up the Bishop’s point again, it is the isolation of faith that is leading people to the occult. Someone who is isolated from the faith is at risk, and maybe if they read Harry Potter it will make them seek more information, but we’ve already ruled those people out of the ‘appropriate readers’ pool. So the way I see it, there’s no evidence that this book is harmful to Catholics (or anyone) strong in their faith who are of an appropriate age and can discern reality from fiction. The only ‘evidence’ is from O’Brien, or other people who have based their opinions on O’Brien, and we have seen his arguments are built on a faulty, shoddy foundation.

I no doubt believe that O’Brien, Fr. Eutenener, and all of you are good, strong Catholics (for those who are Catholic on this thread), and I’m sure the concerns expressed come from a place of genuine concern and not about putting down others in a ‘holier than thou’ mentality. But we have read the books, we have read critiques that logically rebut the opinions of those in the opposition, and we have even seen critiques that highlight the Christian themes in the book, and we genuinely believe that the books are good entertainment and a good, moral story, but not a tool of Satan.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Sorry, the morality of the books is not at all grey. It is black and white.

Evil is evil. Good is good.

Again- a key, if not the key, point of the books is that it is the next life that is important. That no matter what happens in this life, win, lose, wield power or wealth- if we commit evil and destroy our soul we have lost for eternity. That if we have committed evil our only recourse is true remorse and repentance.

To paraphrase, it being too late to look it up and cut paste. The books are an exposition on fear of death, dangers of materialism, error in attachment to things of this world:

What gain, then, is it for anyone to win the whole world and forfeit his soul?

The critics of these books are ignoring or misrepresenting what they actually contain. The magic in ‘Frosty the Snowman’ is just as dangerous as HP if we use its opponents stated position.

 

[abort73catholic]

I’m going back to re-reading Harry Potter now. :coffeeread:

 

[CathModerate]

Until I read an Exorcists transcripts where he has bound the demon and forced him to speak the truth…and the demon says they lead many souls to hell thru Potter…then its nothing more than ultra conservative priests opinions…which arent bad, btw, but the church has a problem with painting with broad brush strokes even in this day and age and trying to lump everyone in under the umbrella of gullible and easily mislead.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Oh dear is right…

Pardon me for getting involved in yet another HP thread! I always do it, but why? I end up going crazy over your arguments. Well, thank you for an overall charitable discussion.
It’s your conscience. Your life.
Signing off…

With all my heart I wish you peace and blessings this Christmas!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I no doubt believe that O’Brien, Fr. Eutenener, and all of you are good, strong Catholics (for those who are Catholic on this thread), and I’m sure the concerns expressed come from a place of genuine concern and not about putting down others in a ‘holier than thou’ mentality.

Thank you.

God bless!

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Sorry, the morality of the books is not at all grey. It is black and white.

Evil is evil. Good is good.

Again- a key, if not the key, point of the books is that it is the next life that is important. That no matter what happens in this life, win, lose, wield power or wealth- if we commit evil and destroy our soul we have lost for eternity. That if we have committed evil our only recourse is true remorse and repentance.

To paraphrase, it being too late to look it up and cut paste. The books are an exposition on fear of death, dangers of materialism, error in attachment to things of this world:

What gain, then, is it for anyone to win the whole world and forfeit his soul?

The critics of these books are ignoring or misrepresenting what they actually contain. The magic in ‘Frosty the Snowman’ is just as dangerous as HP if we use its opponents stated position.

:clapping:

It’s your conscience. Your life.

Signing off…

Excuse me now while I get back to wickedly reading Harry Potter and suppressing my conscience about it. Because that’s obviously what’s happening here.

There’s not a chance that you could be wrong about Harry Potter. In fact, there’s not even a chance that legitimate disagreement is possible. You’re so self-evidently and absolutely right - despite the overwhelming evidence against the paranoid and culturally Manichean position of the anti-Potter crowd, and the dearth of specificity in that position - that no one who disagrees with you can possibly be doing so in good conscience.

Clearly.

You really ought to ask yourself why you feel the need to resort to such bizarrely transparent and self-defeating ad hominems in this discussion. I think it’s because the conclusion you’ve chosen to defend has no legitimate defense.

If it did, these threads might just actually differ in how they end. As things are, however, they always end the same: the anti-Potter individual gives up and says goodbye in frustration, usually after openly declining to deal in specifics.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second.

On the contrary, I have. Many times.

In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely.

Believe me, if we were that concerned with merely “winning,” we’d just swamp you in pages upon pages of detailed structuralist analysis of the Harry Potter novels’ imagery and spiritual content, and here in this thread, the inescapably and self-evidently Christian content of the Harry Potter novels would be laid bare for all the world to see. Well, at least for all those who are willing to open their eyes and look.

You’re defending books and movies that are being obsessed over by children and teens (who may or may not be YOU: Catholic/Christian adults with a wonderful distinction between right and wrong)

The Harry Potter novels are thoroughly, almost obsessively black/white in their morality.

Seriously, lil_flower_luv. More even than any other anti-Potter individual on these boards, your idea of this series is a complete caricature with no resemblance to the real thing. The Harry Potter series inculcates an extremely de-ontological sense of object-based morality. It is consistently the bad guys who espouse an “ends-justify-the-means” mentality and look like monsters the whole time. One character, while he is still very bad (Albus Dumbledore as a teenager), adopts the strikingly utilitarian slogan “for the greater good!”

Black and white morality all over.

you’re defending books and movies that discuss magic as being both good and bad (what!?)

I’m rereading The Chronicles of Narnia right now. I’m on Dawn Treader. Let me share some things I’ve recently read with you:

in Prince Caspian, Glenstorm - a good guy who receives nothing but praise from the narrator - calmly explains that he used astrology.

Later, Caspian uses magic (Susan’s horn) to summon martial aid in his rebellion against his uncle.

In The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Lucy discovers that a spell book from which she has been reading magic spells actually conforms to Aslan’s “own rules” (the Lion explains this to her himself), despite the fact that it contains spells you can use to spy on people, enhance one’s physical beauty in a destructive way, etc.

Magic exists, and exists just as ambiguously, in Narnia as in Harry Potter. To object to Harry Potter for “discussing magic as being both good and bad” but not to feel just as strongly about Narnia is positively delusional.

you’re defending books and movies that are immensely in the “Grey” area (this world does not need the Grey, but sadly, here we are…Satan is cheering right now as that is his favorite color.)

This objection has been repeatedly refuted.

Please, for once! Just step back! Believe me, this topic has brought me to doing my research too…since I was not always on the opposing side. But hey, if we want truth, we seek it!

Mind-numbingly ironic. And not in a good way.

We should want our kids to fill their minds with the right stuff. These books are not harmless…

They are actually very Christian and wholesome.

 

[curlycool89]

Oh, no! I didn’t mean to have an opinion. I’ll back off now.

Michael O’Brien’s critiques are badly written in the eyes of those who cannot just step back and look anew at what you’re defending for even a second. (In actuality, you’re too concerned with winning a debate on a message board, but that’s another discussion entirely)…You’re defending books and movies that are being obsessed over by children and teens (who may or may not be YOU: Catholic/Christian adults with a wonderful distinction between right and wrong), you’re defending books and movies that discuss magic as being both good and bad (what!?), you’re defending books and movies that are immensely in the “Grey” area (this world does not need the Grey, but sadly, here we are…Satan is cheering right now as that is his favorite color.)

No, they’re just objectively badly written.

By the way, I was a teenager who was obsessed with these books when they came out! And I was a non-practicing Catholic at the time, by the way. Never got interesting in any sort of “real-world equivalent” witchcraft because I knew that it was all fiction.

Sheash, if you believe people on this board, all kids are stupid and should be locking in their room with nothing but a tv playing EWTN for 18 years. Oddly enough, those would be the types most likely to jump ship in college because their faith would be more superficial than real. Those with real faith don’t need to be watched 24/7 because they actually have a vested interest in their faith instead of just following their parents rules.

And again, the condescending “I’ll pray for you” is getting old. I’m sure all of us can always use prayers, but prayers are not going to accomplish what you’re looking for (which is conversion to your point of view on HP in this case). What we’re looking for is a logical argument, not “your not good Catholics if you don’t think HP is evil”.

 

[Purple_Junebug]

I think the answer is that little kids shouldn’t watch Harry Potter and other movies gamorizing occult practices. If you are already strong in your faith, watching Harry Potter will not make you want to be a witch, it’s as simple as that. Also, is all you watch Harry Potter? Watch some Catholic movies too, they’re good for you!

 

[Mimi]

Okay – I have decided to weigh in here, tho’ it looks as though this thread is getting worn…

I have great admiration for Fr. Euteneuer. I even met him once. I believe in demonic posession, though, as he says, full-blown posession is fairly rare. He has seen up close & personal how ppl who have cast spells on someone to get revenge can mess up their lives and also the saving power of God’s Grace.

That being said, I have my reservations about HP. My dh & one adult son absolutely think it’s a great story; go to the movies, watch the re-runs on tv (almost every time they are on), etc. I do not share their enthusiasm. I think there are far better stories on which to spend my time, stories which bolster my faith or are just more interesting. They are solid Christians (both Catholic; dh is a convert of 5 yrs).

I have had an experience with the occult I think was real, involving a ouija board (as a teen). It shoulda scared me into the arms of my Savior, but I had to learn the hard way (Thy Will be Done, not mine). Long story v v short, I came back to the faith as an adult.

I think if one can keep the stories straight and keep the Fictional ones in the Fiction dept. of one’s mind, then HP will likely do no harm. However, children – and a few adults – are not able to do this. In these cases HP could possibly lead them into all kinds of spiritual danger.

Blessed Christmas to all!
Mimi

 

[lil_flower_luv]

And again, the condescending “I’ll pray for you” is getting old. I’m sure all of us can always use prayers, but prayers are not going to accomplish what you’re looking for (which is conversion to your point of view on HP in this case). What we’re looking for is a logical argument, not “your not good Catholics if you don’t think HP is evil”.

Excuse me, but if my motives need to be questioned when I offer prayers on a Catholic message board, then I don’t think I should be here.

I can comfortably say the age-old argument that HP books have Christian content is nothing but an insult to the Church you are part of. Lewis and Tolkien, real Christian fantasy authors, wrote from a Christian perspective, therefore their books contained clear Christian symbolism. Have you any evidence of Rowling’s Christian beliefs? And if we want this discussion to go anywhere, I would like page numbers and paragraphs proving the Christian symbolism in Harry Potter. And no comparing HP himself with Jesus, if you can help it.

I pray the same prayer for you as I pray for everyone. That you will be brought to the light and love of Christ in everything you do. I’m sorry if there is something wrong with that.

If I am “resorting” to ad hominems, then I am at a loss for words at what you are all doing. I may be the only one left here who does no agree with you, but that does not mean my argument is fruitless.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

However, children – and a few adults – are not able to do this. In these cases HP could possibly lead them into all kinds of spiritual danger.i

Yes well, many of us on the “pro-Potter” side have already reiterated the importance of parental guidance as well as stress how such importance applies to ALL things that go into children’s heads, not just fantasy books.

 

[Mumbles140]

I can comfortably say the age-old argument that HP books have Christian content is nothing but an insult to the Church you are part of. Lewis and Tolkien, real Christian fantasy authors, wrote from a Christian perspective, therefore their books contained clear Christian symbolism. Have you any evidence of Rowling’s Christian beliefs? And if we want this discussion to go anywhere, I would like page numbers and paragraphs proving the Christian symbolism in Harry Potter. And no comparing HP himself with Jesus, if you can help it.

But just because Lewis and Tolkien, known Christian authors, chose to write from a Christian perspective doesn’t mean every author has to declare their Christianity (which Rowling is a Christian, not sure which branch of protestantism though) to have Christian themes in their books. Furthermore, the fact that those books are written ‘from a Christian perspective’ does not change the fact that they use the exact same type of magic found in Harry Potter, so does saying the books are Christian excuse them from the same stigma placed on HP?

And if you want specifics, I’m sorry that I don’t have the book in front of me, but I can tell you that Harry, to defeat the Dark Lord, has to deliver himself over to be murdered. Then, because of the connection they have from Harry’s birth, he is miraculously brought back to life, and eventually evil is defeated. Those also aren’t the only examples of self-sacrifice in the book.

The books also have other Christian themes, such as choosing to fight honorably and virtuously (there are ‘forbidden dark spells’ that cause serious physical harm or death - these are not employed by the ‘good guys’) against those who wish to be prejudiced and bring violence against those not of ‘pure blood.’ There are also the bonds of friendship, loyalty, and compassion all throughout the stories. Lastly, they highlight the importance of supporting what is right, even when it is not popular.

If you need more specifics, they are literally strewn throughout this thread by we who enjoy Harry Potter and remain staunch Catholics. If you notice some of the previous threads, there are talks about ‘children or adults who may be confused’ avoiding these books. We have preached this from the start, and in those cases, this book can cause people to gain a curiosity for the Occult (although I don’t think reading the books ever caused possession, and no one has proven any case of that yet). However, for appropriate readers who can differentiate fact from fiction and pick out the morality in books, we find them enjoyable, especially in comparison to the filth that you find on tv. There aren’t sexual acts, abuse of drugs or alcohol, nor foul language - how many prime-time shows can claim not to have any of those for their entire run?

 

[curlycool89]

I can comfortably say the age-old argument that HP books have Christian content is nothing but an insult to the Church you are part of. Lewis and Tolkien, real Christian fantasy authors, wrote from a Christian perspective, therefore their books contained clear Christian symbolism. Have you any evidence of Rowling’s Christian beliefs? And if we want this discussion to go anywhere, I would like page numbers and paragraphs proving the Christian symbolism in Harry Potter. And no comparing HP himself with Jesus, if you can help it.

Now your making the same excuses as O’Brien. You’ve abandoned objectivity in favour of favouritism. I’ve read LOTR twice (on my third time), and you know what, unless you’re looking for the Christian symbolism you’re going to miss it (not so much with Silmarillion). I pretty much missed it the first 2 times I went through, and the third time I’m not seeing very much (it’s an extremely good story nonetheless).

Look at The Hobbit, the morals expressed there include stealing is good, breaking the laws of a land is ok, and the book includes a copious amount of deception by the main characters (to keep secrets or because of greed, both are motives). Now, unless this book was written by Tolkien people would be all over this book.

Lewis praises someone who uses astrology in his book. So, what’s the difference? Tolkien and Lewis are better because they also have Christian themes? That sounds an awful lot like “the ends justify the means” to me.

If I am “resorting” to ad hominems, then I am at a loss for words at what you are all doing. I may be the only one left here who does no agree with you, but that does not mean my argument is fruitless.

Yes. Yes it does. You’re not convincing anyone here because you’re not using logic. Besides implying several times that we’re all bad Christians because we like HP, you haven’t managed to make any points.

 

[estesbob]

lil_flower_luv;7388248:

real

Christian fantasy authors, wrote from a Christian perspective, therefore their books contained clear Christian symbolism. Have you any evidence of Rowling’s Christian beliefs? And if we want this discussion to go anywhere, I would like page numbers and paragraphs proving the Christian symbolism in Harry Potter. And no comparing HP himself with Jesus, if you can help it.

.

Ok-“Deathly Hollows” page 325 paragraph 8. What do you think the signficance of the scripture quote used here is?

How about page 327 pargarph 2?