Church Fathers on the Eucharist

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Hi there,

Just wanted to let you know I’m still pondering some of the responses, and I have very little time to be on here during weekdays so I can’t comment much.
I just wanted to make a correction:

Since belief should equal to actuation, or an actual reality that is happening, then the Protestant notion of a symbol does not equate to a Presence.

The Catholic Church does not teach that one must believe in transubstantiation in order for it to occur. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point you were trying to make though (?)

Also, I am aware that I could receive from the cup, but only if it was prepared seperately from the ordinary chalice, as I cannot have the piece of host floating in it (even if I don’t consume it) and I cannot share the chalice with someone who ate a host, or wore lipstick, etc. My pastor was not willing to have me drink the cup, but perhaps if there had been no other alternative, he could have. When I consider it was still possible and there have been ways to help those like myself or in similar circumstances (alcoholics for instance) I admit I’m still a bit sore over the whole thing. I mean, for one, I was doing a work to promote perpetual adoration when John 6 suddenly only looked figurative to me. I approached a few priests about my problem and neither of them would help me see a good, Catholic understanding of it. I just accepted the church knew better than I, and a few months later my health deteriorated and shortly thereafter I found out about the Celiac. Now, either God was giving me a cross and challenging my faith, or He was giving me a sign. To this day I am not sure which, but I will say that the one verse that repeatedly came to mind throughout all of this was “man cannot live on bread alone, but by every word…”. So, I began reading scripture more and more and let that be my nourishment.

Anyway, I am going to consider these posts more closely when I have more time.

Thanks!

 

[John_Henry]

the one verse that repeatedly came to mind throughout all of this was “man cannot live on bread alone, but by every word…”. So, I began reading scripture more and more and let that be my nourishment.

I enjoy your posts, in the sense that you seem to be honestly seeking. And that’s great. Would that more Catholics would seek. Remember that this whole Eucharistic thing doesn’t stand or fall in a vacuum, though. Either Christ did or did not establish a teaching Church. If he did, then however one interprets John 6, the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. If he didn’t, then…for me, the whole thing falls apart. If there’s no authority, then we cannot know the truth with the certainty necessary for faith. No authority, no truth. And we’re screwed.

This thing started with the Church Fathers. They unquestionably believed that the Eucharist was the body and blood of Christ, later defined as transubstantiation, or left undefined if you are Orthodox*. Did they also read John 6 with a spiritual interpretation? Absolutely (e.g., St. Augustine)! But the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that there are multiple levels of meaning to the Scriptures. And the early Church Fathers understood this. Thus a passage like John 6, obviously a reference to the Eucharist, is also read as a passage describing the necessity of coming to Christ and feeding on him in faith. They are two truths conveyed by the scripture. One is the literal meaning and the other is the spiritual meaning. It is to the glory of the Church that she doesn’t take the narrow either/or mentality, but the wider both/and mentality.

Speaking of which, and in reference to what I quoted above, “every word” is not only in Scripture.

• That Catholics and Orthodox have never believed anything else is a vast cataract of evidence in the belief’s favor. No one believed it was just a symbol. Is it a symbol? Yes. The Church teaches that it is. But just a symbol? Never!

 

[MariaG]

Hi there,

Just wanted to let you know I’m still pondering some of the responses, and I have very little time to be on here during weekdays so I can’t comment much.
I just wanted to make a correction:

The Catholic Church does not teach that one must believe in transubstantiation in order for it to occur. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point you were trying to make though (?)

Also, I am aware that I could receive from the cup, but only if it was prepared seperately from the ordinary chalice, as I cannot have the piece of host floating in it (even if I don’t consume it) and I cannot share the chalice with someone who ate a host, or wore lipstick, etc. My pastor was not willing to have me drink the cup, but perhaps if there had been no other alternative, he could have. When I consider it was still possible and there have been ways to help those like myself or in similar circumstances (alcoholics for instance) I admit I’m still a bit sore over the whole thing. I mean, for one, I was doing a work to promote perpetual adoration when John 6 suddenly only looked figurative to me. I approached a few priests about my problem and neither of them would help me see a good, Catholic understanding of it. I just accepted the church knew better than I, and a few months later my health deteriorated and shortly thereafter I found out about the Celiac. Now, either God was giving me a cross and challenging my faith, or He was giving me a sign. To this day I am not sure which, but I will say that the one verse that repeatedly came to mind throughout all of this was “man cannot live on bread alone, but by every word…”. So, I began reading scripture more and more and let that be my nourishment.

Anyway, I am going to consider these posts more closely when I have more time.

Thanks!

I pray that someday you may see He was doing both, challenging your faith yet giving you the tools (the word) in which to live out that challenge.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I enjoy your posts, in the sense that you seem to be honestly seeking. And that’s great. Would that more Catholics would seek. Remember that this whole Eucharistic thing doesn’t stand or fall in a vacuum, though. Either Christ did or did not establish a teaching Church. If he did, then however one interprets John 6, the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. If he didn’t, then…for me, the whole thing falls apart. If there’s no authority, then we cannot know the truth with the certainty necessary for faith. No authority, no truth. And we’re screwed.

This thing started with the Church Fathers. They unquestionably believed that the Eucharist was the body and blood of Christ, later defined as transubstantiation, or left undefined if you are Orthodox*. Did they also read John 6 with a spiritual interpretation? Absolutely (e.g., St. Augustine)! But the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that there are multiple levels of meaning to the Scriptures. And the early Church Fathers understood this. Thus a passage like John 6, obviously a reference to the Eucharist, is also read as a passage describing the necessity of coming to Christ and feeding on him in faith. They are two truths conveyed by the scripture. One is the literal meaning and the other is the spiritual meaning. It is to the glory of the Church that she doesn’t take the narrow either/or mentality, but the wider both/and mentality.

Speaking of which, and in reference to what I quoted above, “every word” is not only in Scripture.

• That Catholics and Orthodox have never believed anything else is a vast cataract of evidence in the belief’s favor. No one believed it was just a symbol. Is it a symbol? Yes. The Church teaches that it is. But just a symbol? Never!

Hmph. Never quite seen it this way. Yes, I do believe the church has authority. The crux of my problem with the Catholic church isn’t actually the eucharist, although reading John 6 was what set the ball rolling so to speak. Reading Scripture just totally changed my entire point of view, and the problems in the church add fuel to my narrow-mindedness

Sometimes I wonder if God isn’t just trying to help me put things in perspective better. Ordinarily I am an either/or type of thinker aferall (and this I was, even as a Catholic. Probably more so than I am now). I am trying to overcome my tendency to jump to conclusions and try to see these things objectively, or should I say, as God sees them.

Don’t think I can comment further on this right now. These are things I will simply need to save for future reference. It is one of many things I am currently struggling with in my search for truth.

Thanks all, for your (name removed by moderator)ut and support

 

[mozart-250]

Hmph. Never quite seen it this way. Yes, I do believe the church has authority. The crux of my problem with the Catholic church isn’t actually the eucharist, although reading John 6 was what set the ball rolling so to speak. Reading Scripture just totally changed my entire point of view, and the problems in the church add fuel to my narrow-mindedness

Sometimes I wonder if God isn’t just trying to help me put things in perspective better. Ordinarily I am an either/or type of thinker aferall (and this I was, even as a Catholic. Probably more so than I am now). I am trying to overcome my tendency to jump to conclusions and try to see these things objectively, or should I say, as God sees them.

Don’t think I can comment further on this right now. These are things I will simply need to save for future reference. It is one of many things I am currently struggling with in my search for truth.

Thanks all, for your (name removed by moderator)ut and support

Hi:

I read your stuff with interest because I am a Protestant Evangelical who has been questioning my faith for a year or so.

Although as I as of yet have insufficient reason to convert to another faith, what I find interesting is that I have wondered what I would do in reverse (if I were Catholic and questioning my faith). I have concluded is that at the end of the day I as a Catholic would probably also find insufficient reason to convert elsewhere.

Fascinating.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Indeed, it must be a similar struggle. A pleasure to have good company in my searching . I’ve enjoyed your posts as well.

I pray we both find the place God wants us!

I know where I want to go, the question is, is it God’s Will for me to move there. I feel stagnant as a Catholic. I feel like I am growing through the Mennonites. But perhaps they are teaching me to be a better Catholic. Only time and prayer will tell…

God Bless,

 

[ALLGIRLS]

JoyToBeCatholic,

Rosalind Moss has Celiac disease. She’s on Catholic Answers Wednesdays (not sure if every Wednesday, or once or twice a month, you can find out on the home page), the first hour, w/ a show called “From the Heart.” Perhaps you could discuss your problem w/ her.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[mercygate]

Indeed, it must be a similar struggle. A pleasure to have good company in my searching . I’ve enjoyed your posts as well.

I pray we both find the place God wants us!

I know where I want to go, the question is, is it God’s Will for me to move there. I feel stagnant as a Catholic. I feel like I am growing through the Mennonites. But perhaps they are teaching me to be a better Catholic. Only time and prayer will tell…

God Bless,

Many Catholic reverts have profited from a season in a Bible-based evangelical congregation. As a convert to Catholicism, I cannot say that I would recommend this, especially since there is nothing good out there in any absolute sense that didn’t start, stand, and end in the Catholic Church. People DO find fellowship, a good preacher, access to Bible study that they might have missed in their home parish but it is THERE – perhaps as near as the parish down the road, if you are willing to look for it.

As for the Real Presence in the Eucharist:

“Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Jesus quotes this passage from Deuteronomy when tempted by Satan. The Hebrew for “word” in that passage is “dabar” – commandment. Man lives by the Commandments of God.

For Christians, Jesus’ command to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” is paramount. When the Priest elevates the consecrated Host and says, “Behold the Lamb of God,” he holds in his hands the living Word: The fulfillment of all the Commandments. Indeed, when we receive that little wafer on our tongue, we can truly say, “Not by bread alone . . .”

 

[PaulusRobertus]

We should read Sant’Ignazio di Antichia…

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Allgirls,
I do remember trying to get in touch with Rosalind at the onset of my diagnosis, but I couldn’t find a way to do that.

Many Catholic reverts have profited from a season in a Bible-based evangelical congregation. As a convert to Catholicism, I cannot say that I would recommend this, especially since there is nothing good out there in any absolute sense that didn’t start, stand, and end in the Catholic Church.

Well, I have been attending a Mennonite congregation that, although I know the denomination is a product of the reformation (and therefore “started” with the Caholic Church), I believe it is a “reformed” church, in that it is the closest denomination I have found (I think ) to the New Testament church. Of course, I know you believe the Catholic church we have today IS that New Testament Church, and I know there are huge doctrinal differences that could be argued (like infant baptism, which I’m not certain I would deny either), but this is what I question. With the congregation I am going to, I see a real fear of God and a love for God that is put into action.

People DO find fellowship, a good preacher, access to Bible study that they might have missed in their home parish but it is THERE – perhaps as near as the parish down the road, if you are willing to look for it.

I didn’t have to look for it in the Catholic parish - I was very much involved in it. I wasn’t just looking for fellowship/bible study/etc… I was looking for pure worship and a community that looked most like that of the church in New Testament times; a church community that will edify me and encourage me to grow in holiness, which, from what I see in Scripture, I am more a part of in the congregation I am in now, than when I was in the Catholic parish(es) -(I’ve been to them all around here).

As for the Real Presence in the Eucharist:

“Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.” Jesus quotes this passage from Deuteronomy when tempted by Satan. The Hebrew for “word” in that passage is “dabar” – commandment. Man lives by the Commandments of God.

For Christians, Jesus’ command to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” is paramount. When the Priest elevates the consecrated Host and says, “Behold the Lamb of God,” he holds in his hands the living Word: The fulfillment of all the Commandments. Indeed, when we receive that little wafer on our tongue, we can truly say, “Not by bread alone . . .”

We celebrate the Lords Supper in communion also. I do believe the church is an integral part of the Christian life. No one can take their bibles and shut themselves up and believe they are doing the will of God.

The main thing that keeps me from deciding to join this congregation is the possibility of the Catholic Church’s claims about the Eucharist. As a Catholic, I perceived my relationship with God very differently than I do now, but I’m not sure my perception was correct. It admittedly seemed like a more intimate relationship with Christ via the Eucharist, but perhaps that was based on my faith in the Real Presence. Now that that faith has been challenged, I no longer sense that relationship - even when I go to mass.

People have tried telling me it was a “dark night” experience or something, but I think it was a move that began with my reading of Scripture, and led me to reason that it was possible I was imagining that intimacy. I know faith cannot be reasoned, and eventually I may end up returning to my Catholicity out of sheer faith, but right now I cannot say with certainty that it was real faith, or imagined intimacy that I was experiencing in the Eucharist. I’ve had to question a 10-years-worth of supposed enlightenment and intimate relationship with Christ and I no longer know what is real, what is God and what is imagined.

Worse part is that I am so worried that I had been wrong all those years that I have hardened my heart (or closed my mind - depending on the authenticity of these supposed experiences) when I am in a Catholic Church.

I absolutely love the congregation I go to. I feel like they have taught me so much. Every encounter with them is like an encounter with the greatest of saints I used to read about. They are like the St Francis’s and the St. Therese’s. But my walk with Christ is not about my relationship with those on this earth above my relationship with Christ. I’m at a loss for where I belong and I am unsure if, at this point, I would recognize truth if it jumped up and bit me.

 

[MariaG]

The main thing that keeps me from deciding to join this congregation is the possibility of the Catholic Church’s claims about the Eucharist. As a Catholic, I perceived my relationship with God very differently than I do now, but I’m not sure my perception was correct. It admittedly seemed like a more intimate relationship with Christ via the Eucharist, but perhaps that was based on my faith in the Real Presence. Now that that faith has been challenged, I no longer sense that relationship - even when I go to mass.

People have tried telling me it was a “dark night” experience or something, but I think it was a move that began with my reading of Scripture, and led me to reason that it was possible I was imagining that intimacy. I know faith cannot be reasoned, and eventually I may end up returning to my Catholicity out of sheer faith, but right now I cannot say with certainty that it was real faith, or imagined intimacy that I was experiencing in the Eucharist. I’ve had to question a 10-years-worth of supposed enlightenment and intimate relationship with Christ and I no longer know what is real, what is God and what is imagined.

Worse part is that I am so worried that I had been wrong all those years that I have hardened my heart (or closed my mind - depending on the authenticity of these supposed experiences) when I am in a Catholic Church.

I absolutely love the congregation I go to. I feel like they have taught me so much. Every encounter with them is like an encounter with the greatest of saints I used to read about. They are like the St Francis’s and the St. Therese’s. But my walk with Christ is not about my relationship with those on this earth above my relationship with Christ. I’m at a loss for where I belong and I am unsure if, at this point, I would recognize truth if it jumped up and bit me.

There were many Saints through time that did not “feel” anything when they recieved the Eucharist. Mother Teresa went through 40years (I believe it was 40), of spiritual dryness in which she knew her job was to keep walking forward in faith no matter what she “felt”. Yet others feel very intensely when recieving the Eucharist, as you did although you now doubt that it was ever real.

You are wise to realize that you do not know if you can trust yourself anymore. I may have told you this before, but you should try to explore scripture and the Church teachings that say that Christ is the Church. If the Holy Spirit can show you the truth in this, it can then be easier to trust that the Catholic Church is right, because you are simply trusting in Christ (the Church), something that you already are doing.

The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

along these same lines would be the following with many scripture verses that I will not list. These are from this site The Bible Cheat Sheet

THE CHURCH
The Church must be one
Apostolic Church
Authoritative Church
Infallible Church
Perpetual Church

God Bless,
Maria

 

[John_Henry]

Well, I have been attending a Mennonite congregation that, although I know the denomination is a product of the reformation (and therefore “started” with the Caholic Church), I believe it is a “reformed” church, in that it is the closest denomination I have found (I think ) to the New Testament church.

You say it is a product of the reformation, and thus started with the Catholic Church, but say it is the closest denomination to the NT Church you have found. I mean no disrespect. Isn’t that somewhat of a contradiction in terms? You admit that the reformation churches are products of the 16th century, and that the Catholic Church predates them all. In fact, as St. Ignatius of Antioch said in AD 107, the church was called “catholic” even then. And he says it in such a way that it is in understood term. I.e., the usage of the term is widespread by AD 107. What Church gets closer than this to the NT Church?

How one asnwers this question will depend on ones assumptions. Some assume Jesus did in fact intend to form a church, under the headship of the apostles, of whom Peter was the first. This Church was to not have the gates of hell prevail against it (i.e., it would last forever). Inevitably, the NT age came to end with the death of St. John. What now? Is the Church to die? No. St. Clement, of whom we read in the NT, relates to us that the apostles chose successors for themselves, the bishops. Only the Ortodox and Catholics have a pedigree (so to speak) that goes all the way back to the beginning? What Church gets closer than this to the NT Church?

Under the great commision, this Church was to go to “all nations” to teach them “all” truth, and Christ was to be with her “all-ways”. There is no better definition of the word Catholic. What Church fulfills this NT mandate more than the Catholic Church?

St. Paul in his letters, quotes portions of early Christian liturgies. By the generation after the apostles, St. Justin gives us a glimpse of the “worship service” that was being conducted at that point in time. It is identical to the structure of the Mass. It is most certainly not a Mennonite service.

Granted all these things are objective. The early Church was most certainly the mustard seed that has grown into the tree of the Catholic Church. They are in continuity. The Church most fulfills Christ’s words about the Church. She has the same liturgy. The seeds of the same beliefs (regenerational baptism, real presence in the Eucharist, penance, prayers for and by the departed, the New Eve). This is all a matter of history and can be ascertained. The Orthodox may dispute a detail here or there. OK fine. But the Mennonites are dismissed out of court. As I say, this is objective history.

The subjective element is that the Catholic Church doesn’t look all that hot these days. She is in a difficult portion of her history, to say the least. But that doesn’t change who she is. It only means that those who have the eyes to see need to get their act in gear and help make things new. What shouldn’t happen is that good Catholics should leave for a service where the people are nicer, or the worship is “purer”, whatever that might mean. They should buckle down and help in the fixing.

And now we come full circle, the only other assumptions that can be made about the NT Church is that Christ didn’t intend to found one (in which case, why are we using the scriptures the earliest Churches composed to disprove its existence), or we end up reading our preferences into the pages of scripture as to what that NT Church looked like. But this is where I bow out. I cannot comprehend the view that sees anything other than a sacramental hierarchichal authoritative teaching church in the NT. Sure I see all that AND strong fellowship etc. But at the least I see that. And the decision between fellowship/encouragement and the sacraments is no real decision (though admittedly, the situation in the Church right now stinks). Especially when it is OUR job to ensure that fellowship and encouragement happen.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Isn’t that somewhat of a contradiction in terms? St. Ignatius of Antioch said in AD 107, the church was called “catholic” even then. the usage of the term is widespread by AD 107. What Church gets closer than this to the NT Church?

yes, in name no one gets closer, but it doesn’t look at all like the church I see in the NT. I’m simply not able to say with certainty that the Catholic church we know today is the way it was begun or intended. And if it is not, I cannot say with certainty just when it developed on its own, but I would guess probably fairly early on. I am inclined to believe that the true NT church is really quite small. I don’t think we can judge the authenticty of Christ’s true church by it’s popularity. Jesus even said it would be so.

Only the Ortodox and Catholics have a pedigree (so to speak) that goes all the way back to the beginning? What Church gets closer than this to the NT Church?

Since many of today’s (not all) protestant churches are a product of the Catholic church, do they not also posses a “lineage”?

Under the great commision, this Church was to go to “all nations” to teach them “all” truth, and Christ was to be with her “all-ways”. There is no better definition of the word Catholic. What Church fulfills this NT mandate more than the Catholic Church?

Other Christian denominations are evangelistic. Even myself (on a much smaller scale) go into the world daily and try to bear testimony to Christ. Again, numbers don’t mean everything. I believe good Christians everywhere try to teach the truth - but just b/c it is not embraced by all, has a big church erected b/c of it, and given a popular name does not mean the truth hasn’t been told there.

St. Paul in his letters, quotes portions of early Christian liturgies. By the generation after the apostles, St. Justin gives us a glimpse of the “worship service” that was being conducted at that point in time. It is identical to the structure of the Mass. It is most certainly not a Mennonite service.

can you show me why? can you point me to something i may read/study about these quotes and the worship service you are referring to? Thanks.

Granted all these things are objective. The early Church was most certainly the mustard seed that has grown into the tree of the Catholic Church. They are in continuity. The Church most fulfills Christ’s words about the Church. She has the same liturgy. The seeds of the same beliefs (regenerational baptism, real presence in the Eucharist, penance, prayers for and by the departed, the New Eve). This is all a matter of history and can be ascertained. The Orthodox may dispute a detail here or there. OK fine. But the Mennonites are dismissed out of court. As I say, this is objective history.

Perhaps I need to look more in-depth at history then. I haven’t “seen it” historically yet either. I can see what looks like the development of Catholic doctrine very early on, but there seems to be a gap of time where there is nothing to support it. Maybe I just haven’t come across it yet though or just don’t recognize it as such.

The subjective element is that the Catholic Church doesn’t look all that hot these days. She is in a difficult portion of her history, to say the least. But that doesn’t change who she is. It only means that those who have the eyes to see need to get their act in gear and help make things new. What shouldn’t happen is that good Catholics should leave for a service where the people are nicer, or the worship is “purer”, whatever that might mean.

No. I am not choosing a church based on the niceness of the people. I sought them out b/c I believe they adhere most closely to scripture and their spirituality is not unlike that of the Franciscans or Carmelites. They believe in and live out a life of self-denial and detachment, which I believe is the key to a greater union with God and the essence of Jesus’ teachings. As a Catholic, I was so attached to the church and all it’s pomp and circumstance, that I felt a slave to her; constantly needing her intercession to attain God’s grace. Very attached to the formal prayers, rosaries, liturgies, statues, art, devotions, music - all these tangible, sensual mediums. I used to love all of it, but I eventually have found it all very distracting and restricting. This is what I mean by pure worship. I think those things are very distracting, restricting and potentially idolatrous. Perhaps it is not that way for everyone (?) - I cannot know, but I felt they were obstacles and I fear that God is offended that people turn to all of these things instead of coming directly to Him.

As far as corruption, I understand and accept the human elements of the church and I do not expect perfection from the people within. Of course, I do expect to find good fruit though.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Hi, Maria,

I didn’t mean to seem as though I skipped your post. I have a lot to address in it and want to check the link you provided. I will see if I can respond tonight.

Thanks.

 

[mercygate]

JoyToBeCatholic,

Of COURSE the Church does not look exactly like the First Century Church! How could it? Do you look anything like you looked on your first birthday? The Church had to accommodate its growth to billions of members world wide. But if you look at the Church of the New Testament, you will see Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, you will see councils and ministries.

You will not see big church buildings because in its infancy, the church centered in synagogues and houses and then went underground for about 250 years because of persecution.

But the Church is still THE Church. And no: although Protestants retain Scripture (except for 7 books) and call upon the name of Jesus, they do not “possess the lineage” in full because they have broken Apostolic Succession both physically (by not having consecrations in Apostolic lines) and intentionally by outright rejecting the lineage, holy orders, and sacraments and by rejecting the teaching of the Church and inventing teachings of their own (sola/sola, eg).

 

[MariaG]

Hi, Maria,

I didn’t mean to seem as though I skipped your post. I have a lot to address in it and want to check the link you provided. I will see if I can respond tonight.

Thanks.

Not a problem, but thanks for the heads up. I WAS begining to wonder if I was on your ignore list for some reason or another

Don’t worry if you don’t get back to me, but I do think it would be beneficial for you to meditate on those verses and their meaning.

If you want to view the Catechism and look up the footnotes many of which refer to scripture here are some more things to look up on this if you wish.

Catechism of the Catholic Church search on body church christ

CCC home page

God Bless,
Maria

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

There were many Saints through time that did not “feel” anything when they recieved the Eucharist. Mother Teresa went through 40years (I believe it was 40), of spiritual dryness in which she knew her job was to keep walking forward in faith no matter what she “felt”. Yet others feel very intensely when recieving the Eucharist, as you did although you now doubt that it was ever real.

The problem isn’t so much that I don’t feel anything. I’ve experience aridity in prayer before and I understand it is not uncommon. I actually hear a knocking at the door/a tugging at my heart - but am discerning whether it is emotions, affections for my past perceptions of God and past prayer experiences, or the real thing.

You are wise to realize that you do not know if you can trust yourself anymore. I may have told you this before, but you should try to explore scripture and the Church teachings that say that Christ is the Church. If the Holy Spirit can show you the truth in this, it can then be easier to trust that the Catholic Church is right, because you are simply trusting in Christ (the Church), something that you already are doing.

The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

along these same lines would be the following with many scripture verses that I will not list. These are from this site The Bible Cheat Sheet

THE CHURCH
The Church must be one
Apostolic Church
Authoritative Church
Infallible Church
Perpetual Church

I haven’t check out the site yet, but I will do so. I just wanted to say that I don’t discount the importance of the church, or any of the aspects of it that you raise. I’m just not certain I believe the church to be the Catholic Church we see today. How I see things is a bit complicated, and I’m not good at expressing things. In fact, I’m not really even sure how I see things. I’m a very abstract person. I feel like I have to put the pieces of a puzzle together in order for me to even see what is developing in my mind when it comes to conceptualization. I’d have to give it some good, long thought. I was reading back in a thread I started in April about holiness and that might help to give some idea. Maybe I’ll start a new thread at some point, that deals more directly with my perception of church, and the Catholic church.

Bless You

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Well, it’s not perfect, but it touches on a bit of it. I’d appreciate your insight. I didn’t want to hijack the thread anymore

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1487710#post1487710

 

[MariaG]

Well, it’s not perfect, but it touches on a bit of it. I’d appreciate your insight. I didn’t want to hijack the thread anymore

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1487710#post1487710

Actually, that does help to explain alot.

It seems to be similar to how I feel about JW’s. They seem to be able to live in the world but not be of the world, (at least the ones I know personally).

The problem of course is that JW’s are in fact wrong. They don’t believe in the Trinity and use a corrupted interpretation of Scripture to support that view. And from the Catholic point of view, the group you are referring to would also be wrong due to the lack of belief in the Real Presence, (which I know you are working on that )

But are there not in fact vocations available for those like you who must live in the world but are trying to be separate from it? Or is it only for non-married women?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Oh and I may again have already given you this, (I have told others but can never keep straight who ), there is a great book by St. Francis De Sales, *Introduction to a Devout Life. *It focuses on advice and practical step by step instructions on how a person like you is already married but is feeling a call for deeper devotion, can live that life, live that devotion through thier current circumstances.

A guide to making your whole life a prayer to God and praying without ceasing yet still being a wife.

You can find it at CA shop (link below) or you may even find it in your local parish library.

Introduction to the Devout Lifeby St. Francis De Sales

God Bless,
Maria

ps. Do you in fact have a sacramental marriage?