Church Fathers on the Eucharist

[MariaG]

How do we know it isn’t the ones who believed in the real presence that were the heretics?

That would mean that all the early writings on the subject were the heretics. That would also mean that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church and it was not restored for over 1500 years?

It all comes down to faith in God. Is God strong enough to hold His Church without error through fallible men? It is a big one, I know I’ve been there. What makes more sense though, that God upheld the promises in Scripture telling us the the Church is a pillar and foundation of truth, or that the Church fell into false teachings until other men could come along and fix it?

Scripture warns us that false teachers would come along. It does not make sense to hold the opinion that the man who learned from the Apostle John was a heretic, but men who came 1500 years after the fact are the true teachers.

From CA Library
The Real Presence

Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (*Letter to the Romans *7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (*Letter to the Smyrnaeans *6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

God Bless,
Maria

 

[St.Eric]

How do we know it isn’t the ones who believed in the real presence that were the heretics?
God Bless

Well, John 6:66 gives us a clue. The ones who stayed with Christ are not the heretics. The ones who thought that this was a “hard teaching” and could not believe it walked away from Christ, never again to be his disciples. Christ did not run after them and clarify himself and tell them he was only speaking in parables. No, he let them walk, and walk they did. Not believing in the body and blood…This is the only instance in the bible where Christ lets disciples walk away without clarifying himself. Why, because there was nothing to clarify. If you don’t believe in the body and blood, you have no life in you…you walk away from Christ in your disbelief…

 

[KathyH]

Yes, but then where do you get the answers? Evidently you have to ask people as well; like I said, Jesus guides us towards men and resources. God speaks through men. God speaks to us as well within ourselves, but we confirm those thoughts with the thoughts of the community that surrounds us.

Now you have brought up the very subject that I have been leading to, and that is the understanding that Jesus only talks through man. Jesus told us his people would hear his voice, and he told us that he would send us his Spirit to teach us. We would never have to worry about false teachers if we would let God teach us. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment, so we are protected also in this way.

 

[MariaG]

Now you have brought up the very subject that I have been leading to, and that is the understanding that Jesus only talks through man. Jesus told us his people would hear his voice, and he told us that he would send us his Spirit to teach us. We would never have to worry about false teachers if we would let God teach us. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment, so we are protected also in this way.

Unfortunately Kathy, while Jesus did promise that He would send His Spirit to guide us, there is no personal infallibility just because you are Christian.

Was it this thread? or another? But your error can be seen in the fact that you believe that Paul was mistaken to use “Father” because you believe the Spirit has told you that when Jesus says call no man Father it was literal.

So are you missing any eyes or hands since Jesus also tells us to pluck out our eyes or cut off our hand if we sin?

We are not guareenteed to be personally infallible in our interpretation of Scripture.

God Bless you and keep you safe in this dangerous road you are walking, thinking you are more Spirit filled than the apostles.

Maria

 

[ferdie]

Well getting advice from a community of believers is fine, but when if is a question about God you need to ask Jesus what is right.

Your are right we need to ask our LORD. But our Lord answered us about him a long time ago. He told the us to listen to His Church, His voice on earth. We can’t rely on feelings and intuitions. The Church is visible for a lot of reasons, and one of them is to answer our questions about God.

 

[Milliardo]

Now you have brought up the very subject that I have been leading to, and that is the understanding that Jesus only talks through man. Jesus told us his people would hear his voice, and he told us that he would send us his Spirit to teach us.

Yes, that is true, but who did He send to teach? Who did the Spirit descend to? Wasn’t the Apostles? Weren’t they the ones commissioned to preach? Who was Jesus’ voice? Weren’t they the Apostles, who spoke in His Name? Even today, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants have pastors. I don’t see any church suddenly firing all its pastors, telling its congregation to just go to church, read the Bible silently, then go home. Each and everyone still goes to church, have the pastor deliver his sermon, and some people come up to their pastor for guidance and advice, etc.

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment, so we are protected also in this way.

Discernment is always accompanied by the perception of that person towards what his community teaches, as well as conformity to those teachings. It’s never on one’s own. That discernment then carries with it a connection with community. As you can see, the connection to men always comes up, since we are again a community of believers.