Church is too wealthy?

[DCD]

Well I can think of nothing better so I will quote The Great Fulton Sheen.

Jn.12;4,5
“Judas became the spokesman of all those who through the centuries would protest the ornamenation of the Christian cult and would feel that, when the best of gold and jewels were given to the God Who made them, there was some slight made to the poor-not because they were interested in the poor, but because they were envious of that wealth.”

Peace,
David

 

[maryj]

the church is not too wealthy, the vatican holds for all peoples these treasures. they are priceless, money can not be borrowed against any of it. The vatican and all it holds belongs to all people of the world. I have had this discussion with too many people recently.

 

[Fitz]

I heard an interesting response to this claim…without even getting into numbers.

Ok, so the Church sells all of its property, assets, investments and art. They take the proceeds and help people all around the world for a few months until the money runs out.

or…

They keep things going the way they are and continue helping people for another 2000 years with the money they raise and control with prudent fiscal management.

I will add to your line of thinking…

It is not important that the church provide money to the poor. It is important that they continue to teach generation after generation what Jesus wants US to do with our money and time.

Remember in the bible it states that “the poor will always be with us”. So therefore there will always be people that we need to help and treat Christlike.

 

[Liberian]

What in the world does one say to a thing like that?

Surf(name removed by moderator)ure,

To whom would you sell the Sistine Chapel? What would he do with it?

Most of the Church’s “riches” are not valuable; they are priceless.

Pope Paul VI considered selling the Pieta and giving the money to the poor but decided against it. I cannot speak for his reasons, but any collector would likely have taken it out of public view and deprived the world–both rich and poor–of a treasure.

• Liberian

 

[seremina]

I thought the original Pieta was stolen anyway? The Pieta we see is the new one Pope John Paul II had commissioned.

Is this correct, or I am thinking of the wrong area’s Pieta?

 

[surfinpure]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have not abandoned the thread. I am reading and considering every post. You all have been very helpful. Thanks!

mary

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If I remember correctly Michaelangelo’s Pieta was damaged by a poor soul and has been restored-the attack in the 1970s?

Yep, here we are:

The most substantial damage occurred on May 21, 1972 (Pentecost Sunday) when a mentally disturbed geologist named Laszlo Toth walked into the chapel and attacked the Virgin with a hammer while shouting “I am Jesus Christ.”

After the attack, the work was painstakingly restored and returned to its place in St. Peter’s, just to the right of the entrance, between the Holy door and the altar of Saint Sebastian, and is now protected by a bullet-proof acrylic glass panel. The chapel of the Pietà is the location where the Pope vests before liturgical celebrations in the basilica.

 

[beckers]

If the asker is protestant, ask them what kind of car their pastor drives, is his name up on the sign in front of his church, what does his house look like, where do his kids go to school, and how does his wife dress?

Then tell him how our priests retire in poverty.

You do not have to make excuses for your Church. The accuser needs to provide proof of their argument. They will find none.

~Liza

And then you need ask him that if he leaves as pastor does his house and all the things bought with the church money stay his or do they go back to the church.

Priest or Bishop or the pope may reside in the church buildings but they do not own them and they pass on through the church to the next person in line much like the white house or governor’s houses.

 

[seremina]

Oh, okay. Thank you.

As for the OP…no, the Church is not too wealthy. They do more charity than anybody else. Why don’t you go bug Bill Gates? I hear he’s too wealthy. [giggles]

If I remember correctly Michaelangelo’s Pieta was damaged by a poor soul and has been restored-the attack in the 1970s?

Yep, here we are:

The most substantial damage occurred on May 21, 1972 (Pentecost Sunday) when a mentally disturbed geologist named Laszlo Toth walked into the chapel and attacked the Virgin with a hammer while shouting “I am Jesus Christ.”

After the attack, the work was painstakingly restored and returned to its place in St. Peter’s, just to the right of the entrance, between the Holy door and the altar of Saint Sebastian, and is now protected by a bullet-proof acrylic glass panel. The chapel of the Pietà is the location where the Pope vests before liturgical celebrations in the basilica.

 

[surfinpure]

And then you need ask him that if he leaves as pastor does his house and all the things bought with the church money stay his or do they go back to the church.

Priest or Bishop or the pope may reside in the church buildings but they do not own them and they pass on through the church to the next person in line much like the white house or governor’s houses.

Liza and Beckers,

Actually, the asker is my older brother, who is an agnostic and has not attended any church (so far as I am aware) since he left the Catholic Church many, many years ago. So any questions about his pastor or church would not apply. His bitterness is also for the many Protestant pastors who live and retire in wealth. He already sees your point there.

Oddly enough, it was the fact that our priests retire in poverty that caused him to make this statement in the first place last we talked. He wanted to know why all our retired priests and nuns were barely scraping by, and why all over the US people took up a second collection when “one room in the Vatican would pay for all their needs.” Please understand, I am not supporting him in his argument; I only want to clarify it so as to rule out arguments that would be useless to me.

Beckers, thank you. You made some very good points.mary

 

[surfinpure]

Oh, okay. Thank you.

As for the OP…no, the Church is not too wealthy. They do more charity than anybody else. Why don’t you go bug Bill Gates? I hear he’s too wealthy. [giggles]

Please re-read my opening post. I am not attempting to “bug” anybody, only to get some good facts with which to make a decent argument in favor of the Church. I would be very happy to have some data on hand that proves to my brother that the Church indeed does more charity than anyone else. Even figures for the United States alone would be very helpful. If you know of such a source, please share it with me.

Thanks,

mary

 

[Sherlock]

I’m not sure that the answer to this is.

However, if you visit Rome and look at the wonder of the Sistine Chapel and the sheer opulence of St Paul’s and the Vatican City in general then I am left with one conundrum.

I wonder what Jesus would think if he saw it?

I am sure that Jesus would be very pleased to see the work of so many artists’ and architects’ hearts, minds, and hands all going to serve to praise God – so many people using their talents as a form of worship. Not to mention the inspiration and elevation of the mind to higher things that the viewing of these things has on the public, which has access to all of these things.

As for the pope himself, his papal apartments are really quite simple and plain.

 

[slowbutfaithful]

I am sure that Jesus would be very pleased to see the work of so many artists’ and architects’ hearts, minds, and hands all going to serve to praise God – so many people using their talents as a form of worship. Not to mention the inspiration and elevation of the mind to higher things that the viewing of these things has on the public, which has access to all of these things.

Yep. If the first thing that crosses the mind of someone who looks up at the ceiling of Sistine Chapel is dollar signs, they have a much more serious problem than the Church. The art and beauty of the great shrines in Rome (and elsewhere) are arguably the closest we’ll get to a vision of heaven while still planted here on Terra Firma.

 

[surfinpure]

Well I can think of nothing better so I will quote The Great Fulton Sheen.

Jn.12;4,5
“Judas became the spokesman of all those who through the centuries would protest the ornamenation of the Christian cult and would feel that, when the best of gold and jewels were given to the God Who made them, there was some slight made to the poor-not because they were interested in the poor, but because they were envious of that wealth.”

Peace,
David

Thank you, David – this is EXCELLENT!

 

[AELondon]

A few points…

1. Who owns the treasures of the Church? We do of course. If the Vatican didn’t maintain these priceless treasures they’d either be lost, destroyed, or scattered amongst countless collections around the worldwide. The Vatican holds these treasures on behalf of mankind as a testament to God’s gift of beauty and art.
2. The art and architecture of the Catholic Church is intended to turn our spirits and thoughts to the divine. If even one soul was turned to God because of this artwork… how much was that worth?

and finally…

1. How much do you think the Great Temple of Solomon or the rebuilt Temple was worth? And we know that Jesus approved of the Temple. After all he called it, “my Father’s house.”

 

[cazayoux]

He wanted to know why all our retired priests and nuns were barely scraping by, and why all over the US people took up a second collection when “one room in the Vatican would pay for all their needs.”

Hmmm …

This might get into WHY the church doesn’t sell it’s art, for example, to feed the hungry.
I’m not sure, but it’s probably got something to do with those items being a gift to the church. The giver’s intention would be betrayed if the gift were sold by the church.
Selling it would only be a temporary solution for those hungry.

Also, remember that the religious take a vow of poverty.
They are not released from that vow by retiring.
You’ll have to ask yourself, what is the reason that poverty is sought for the religious. What does the religious gain from their poverty?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Hmmm …

This might get into WHY the church doesn’t sell it’s art, for example, to feed the hungry.
I’m not sure, but it’s probably got something to do with those items being a gift to the church. The giver’s intention would be betrayed if the gift were sold by the church.
Selling it would only be a temporary solution for those hungry.

Also, remember that the religious take a vow of poverty.
They are not released from that vow by retiring.
You’ll have to ask yourself the reason that poverty is sought for the religious.
What does the religious gain from their poverty?
Do we pity them that they have so little?
Do they pity us because we can’t do without so much?
Is a retired priest, living in poverty, happy?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Why don’t you go bug Bill Gates? I hear he’s too wealthy. [giggles]

Bill Gates was in a college fraternity that was once all Catholic and which still today has it’s ceremony in a Catholic Church.

Don’t want anyone to freak out …
I’ve put on this ceremony in a couple of Catholic Churches (even a Cathedral once) and I assure you it is of the utmost respect and admiration for the holy place entered and for Christ Himself and all is completely in line with the Church’s teaching.

Bill Gates gives quite a bit.
He’s HUGE on philanthropy.
Possibly something he learned from the fraternity … or his wife.

michel

 

[surfinpure]

Also, remember that the religious take a vow of poverty. They are not released from that vow by retiring. You’ll have to ask yourself, what is the reason that poverty is sought for the religious. What does the religious gain from their poverty?

michel

Thank you for your reply, Michel.

Here, I believe, we get into a problem with semantics. By “poverty” what is really implied is “destitution.” Not having enough food, clothing, shelter, and medical care, etc. We all understand that the religious sign up for true poverty from the get-go, and there is much to be said about it (see the book Happy Are You Poor, by Thomas Dubay).

 

[stargazer257]

Bill Gates gives quite a bit.
He’s HUGE on philanthropy.
Possibly something he learned from the fraternity … or his wife.

michel

Agreed. I have personally “spent” some of his $ (i.e., I placed the order) that he and his wife donated to my diocese (Gates Grant/Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation) on dozens of brand-new Dell desktops to put in front of students in a local Catholic school. And that was only part of it. I’m sure my experience has been duplicated many times over.

Their charity has been a big factor in getting my childrens’ school up to speed with the current technology.

Thanks Bill, Thanks Melinda.Thanks B&MG Foundation.