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surfinpure
Guest
I hope Bill Gates doesn’t mind if we return to the subject of the Pope now. 
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seremina
Guest
Oh dear. I’m afraid you haven’t read the news article about Gates’ “generosity”. Yes, he did give that Catholic school brand-new Dell desktops for free. Some months later, though, he had the guts to demand for them to pay for the WinXP on EACH computer! Now they’re in debt to him. How is that charity?
As for the earlier poster that said she wasn’t bugging anybody…I know you weren’t. I was just trying to inject some clean humour into this subject. The idea that people think the Vatican, or the Pope, or the Churches, whatever-that-is-Catholic, is wealthy…is kinda dumb. I mean, sure, things LOOK rich. Its only gold-plating. Besides, you have to have some measure of money [its still teenie weenie though but halfway decent] in order to be the biggest charity in the world. The Church even helps in disasters! They helped victims of Katrina, etc. But yes, I’ll get you the stats.
I’ll get back to you on that.
Yes, clergy and religious, even the Pope, do take a vow of poverty. This means you rely on God for even your most basic necessities. The Pope’s hats, clothes, even his sun shades…are all -donated- to him. He hasn’t paid a penny for them. There’s been Popes that decided they wanted to sell a pair of their donated shoes just to help some poor people in a bind! If anything, the only wealth the Pope has is spiritual wealth. He tries to share that too.
Religious art is divinely-inspired, just as the Bible is. It shouldn’t be sold. It belongs to the Church, not the Vatican. Let’s not forget the cost it takes to keep these lovely things maintained and keep them restored. They are a labour of love.
As for the earlier poster that said she wasn’t bugging anybody…I know you weren’t. I was just trying to inject some clean humour into this subject. The idea that people think the Vatican, or the Pope, or the Churches, whatever-that-is-Catholic, is wealthy…is kinda dumb. I mean, sure, things LOOK rich. Its only gold-plating. Besides, you have to have some measure of money [its still teenie weenie though but halfway decent] in order to be the biggest charity in the world. The Church even helps in disasters! They helped victims of Katrina, etc. But yes, I’ll get you the stats.
I’ll get back to you on that.
Yes, clergy and religious, even the Pope, do take a vow of poverty. This means you rely on God for even your most basic necessities. The Pope’s hats, clothes, even his sun shades…are all -donated- to him. He hasn’t paid a penny for them. There’s been Popes that decided they wanted to sell a pair of their donated shoes just to help some poor people in a bind! If anything, the only wealth the Pope has is spiritual wealth. He tries to share that too.
Religious art is divinely-inspired, just as the Bible is. It shouldn’t be sold. It belongs to the Church, not the Vatican. Let’s not forget the cost it takes to keep these lovely things maintained and keep them restored. They are a labour of love.
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mark_a
Guest
Yes,and the disciple that complained was Judas, the money handler of the group, who liked to help himself.
Jerry Falwell answered the same accusation by saying that God needs to be brought back to the forefront.
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San_Patricio
Guest
I don’t want to get off-topic here, but isn’t it in his own interest to give out computers? Also, like the woman who gave her only two coins, vs. those who gave much more actual money but of their surplus, I don’t think it could truly be said that Gates is generous. If I’m wrong I apologise.
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San_Patricio
Guest
I’m sure the Pope won’t mind. The Church isn’t too wealthy. I agree w/ the other posters (sorry, I forget who) that said you should call on your brother to doccument his accusations. It is not your responsibility to be the accountant for the Church. However, I imagine that you could get stats on charitable donations from the IRS or something, though why anyone would want to talk to them I can’t imagine.I hope Bill Gates doesn’t mind if we return to the subject of the Pope now.
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surfinpure
Guest
In theory, you are certainly right. It is not my job to keep watch over the Church’s books. However, in the spirit of discussion with a person 1) whom I love dearly, and 2) who may one day think of returning to the faith, I would like to have some information to offer that demonstrates that I am serious about the discussion, that his concerns are worth my time and attention, and last but not least, that the allegations are unfounded.
It would be only too easy to place the ball back into his court and say, “You prove it.” But this is not really an answer. I am not afraid of the true and factual answer to the question, because I do believe that when things are brought to light, the Church has very little wealth (in terms of dollar signs) amassed, and the Pope lives quite humbly. Should that be so hard to prove? I don’t see why it ought to be. And if I were not a Catholic would I want to know? Probaby so. It is a reasonable request, because what my brother is really asking is, “Does the Church practice what she preaches?”
I am grateful after this many years my brother has even agreed to dialogue with me on the subject, and if there is any way that I personally can help to remove some of the road-blocks that have kept him away from the faith for so long, is it not my duty to do so?
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San_Patricio
Guest
Well, since you put it that way, I guess I have to agree with you (reluctantly- I hate agreeing with people
). I wish I could tell you exactly where to get the info you seek, but I honestly don’t know. Have you checked the UCCB or .VA sites?
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surfinpure
Guest
To be honest, no. I have not, and you’re right, I suppose I should. Heretofore I have had very little success with searching the VA site, even for documents that I know are there! Their search form needs much improving, IMHO. But I had not considered the USCCB. I’ll give it a go – thanks!Well, since you put it that way, I guess I have to agree with you (reluctantly- I hate agreeing with people
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Augustine22
Guest
I don’t think that’s right about the Vatican and the Pope really. But on a local level, I do think we have too much money. In my diocese that had a campaign to raise money for a trustfund of some kind so that the INTEREST could pay for many things.
They even hired a secular marketing company and targeted people based on the giving levels over the previous year. They “suggested” what each person should give.
So much for the left hand not knowing what the right is giving. By the time all was said and done, most people in each parish knew basically what the others had been giving.
I didn’t give a dime.
Can you imagine St. Paul saying we should hoard so much money that the very interest on it could pay the bills?
I think God might also use the scandals (and the huge pay-outs) as a way of taking money away from the Church because it used it so abhorrently already. And its like poison. Too many priests and bishops seem to really LOVE nice things.
May have to do with the decadent homosexual culture in some places?
Just a guess.
They even hired a secular marketing company and targeted people based on the giving levels over the previous year. They “suggested” what each person should give.
So much for the left hand not knowing what the right is giving. By the time all was said and done, most people in each parish knew basically what the others had been giving.
I didn’t give a dime.
Can you imagine St. Paul saying we should hoard so much money that the very interest on it could pay the bills?
I think God might also use the scandals (and the huge pay-outs) as a way of taking money away from the Church because it used it so abhorrently already. And its like poison. Too many priests and bishops seem to really LOVE nice things.
May have to do with the decadent homosexual culture in some places?
Just a guess.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
You must be so proud of yourself not having given a dime.
Endowments are sometimes prudent financial management of charitable organizations. For example, I know of parishes who planned for the day that the demographics of their parish would be poorer so they used the good times to build a maintenance endowment to allow them to maintain their building in the future and not burden the future parishioners whose means will be significantly less. It is noteworthy that you didn’t disclose the purpose of the endowment.
Your assertion the scandal lawsuits are punishment for some non-documented charge of fiscal mismanagement is slanderous. And then to make a broad-based charge that our ordained “LOVE nice things” insinuates that this has become their God. I didn’t know you were God and could see into their souls.
Finally, your linking this all to being related to a homosexual sub-culture is especially eggregious.
I suggest you read the following from the Catechism:
2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.
2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.
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surfinpure
Guest
I would be very careful about speculating as to why or how the Lord God chooses to punish people. Would our Lord allow youths to be molested in order to punish the clergy for overspending? It is a very dangerous line of thinking.
Also, when you say “too many priests and bishops,” to which specific clergymen are you pointing? I have not personally known a priest or bishop who “loves nice things,” nor have I lived in a diocese that could afford them. I don’t know where you live, but down here in Galveston, TX, we’re just scraping by as usual. Enough to keep the doors open, but not much more than that.
As for the remark about “homosexual culture,” this is out of line in the worst way.
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Valke2
Guest
What’s wrong with the Pharasees?I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.”
What in the world does one say to a thing like that?
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Augustine22
Guest
Surf(name removed by moderator)ure-
God uses everything and anything to get what good he can from it. Nothing scandalous about the idea. He did it with Israel all the time. If He believes there is too much love of money, nothing shocking that he would make use of such a sad and scandalous situation to accomplish other good ends, too. I also think of the rich man and the eye of the needle. This is all a purification, imo.
As for specific priests and bishops, I didn’t mention any in particular on purpose. But in my area of the country, you would have to be blind not to see it too frequently. New top of the line cars, rectories being redone to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars with the very finest while funds for Catholic education are cut.
As to the homosexual culture, I disagree. There are many excellent priests. Most even. But if you think there is not a serious problem with the homosexual culture, even if still a minority, then I don’t know what you have been reading the past few years.
Orion-
Hmmm…rash judgments. Do you know what I give to charity (the Church and more) aside from this one campaign? In fact, after this episode a few years ago, I stopped using the envelopes and give cash only so that no one knows what I give–will you jump to the rash conclusion that this is because I give so little? And you didn’t say if you see nothing wrong with secular marketing companies being given such private information and then coming in to prod people to give based on that private information. Does that seem wrong to you or not?
You also did not answer the question I asked. It was not rhetorical. Can you imagine St. Paul or any of the apostles advising the amassing of such wealth that the interest alone on the wealth could take care of the needs of the community? I can’t, especially after reading the book of Acts.
The campaign was for many fine things like the schools, building funds, and more, so the problem was not the use, but the method, imo. You chose to read something ugly into the fact that I did not say what it was for. Is that another violation of your own warning to me?
I love the Church too and lost a great deal to join it. So why not enjoin the points and concerns rather than going down this road?
FYI…many good and loyal Catholics in my diocese complained about these very same things.
As to your other admonishments to rash judgment…Did I name anyone specifically? Did I say it applied to everyone? Even to most? No, no and no. This cannot be, by definition, rash judgment.
I said it applied to “too many” and I stand by that. I have seen enough to have an informed opinion. I have many priest friends.
Obviously, my disappointments, frustrations and concerns have only created anger rather than open and frank discussion between brothers in the faith. So I’ll leave…and focus on something better and happier.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
God uses everything and anything to get what good he can from it. Nothing scandalous about the idea. He did it with Israel all the time. If He believes there is too much love of money, nothing shocking that he would make use of such a sad and scandalous situation to accomplish other good ends, too. I also think of the rich man and the eye of the needle. This is all a purification, imo.
As for specific priests and bishops, I didn’t mention any in particular on purpose. But in my area of the country, you would have to be blind not to see it too frequently. New top of the line cars, rectories being redone to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars with the very finest while funds for Catholic education are cut.
As to the homosexual culture, I disagree. There are many excellent priests. Most even. But if you think there is not a serious problem with the homosexual culture, even if still a minority, then I don’t know what you have been reading the past few years.
Orion-
Hmmm…rash judgments. Do you know what I give to charity (the Church and more) aside from this one campaign? In fact, after this episode a few years ago, I stopped using the envelopes and give cash only so that no one knows what I give–will you jump to the rash conclusion that this is because I give so little? And you didn’t say if you see nothing wrong with secular marketing companies being given such private information and then coming in to prod people to give based on that private information. Does that seem wrong to you or not?
You also did not answer the question I asked. It was not rhetorical. Can you imagine St. Paul or any of the apostles advising the amassing of such wealth that the interest alone on the wealth could take care of the needs of the community? I can’t, especially after reading the book of Acts.
The campaign was for many fine things like the schools, building funds, and more, so the problem was not the use, but the method, imo. You chose to read something ugly into the fact that I did not say what it was for. Is that another violation of your own warning to me?
I love the Church too and lost a great deal to join it. So why not enjoin the points and concerns rather than going down this road?
FYI…many good and loyal Catholics in my diocese complained about these very same things.
As to your other admonishments to rash judgment…Did I name anyone specifically? Did I say it applied to everyone? Even to most? No, no and no. This cannot be, by definition, rash judgment.
I said it applied to “too many” and I stand by that. I have seen enough to have an informed opinion. I have many priest friends.
Obviously, my disappointments, frustrations and concerns have only created anger rather than open and frank discussion between brothers in the faith. So I’ll leave…and focus on something better and happier.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
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surfinpure
Guest
First, your point was not made clearly in your previous post. Second, we have no business speculating as to how God is choosing to chasten His people. That is not for us to decide, even to discuss. How God deals with individual sinners is strictly His affair. We ought to take great caution lest we incur an extra penalty for declaring judgments met out on God’s behalf.
While I could never condone priests violating vows of poverty, as I said, I have personally never seen it done, and I would venture to say that it is merely the exception to the rule.
You disagree about what, exactly? You disagree that linking problems of spending in the Church and homosexual culture is out of line? I would like to see how in the world one could possibly draw a connection between the two, without audaciously declaring that a significant portion of the priesthood is homosexual. It seemed to me this is what you were inferring, however your position was, again, not stated clearly. Of course we have a problem with a growing homosexual popuation, but what on earth does that have to do with this thread??
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Augustine22
Guest
Surfin-
I don’t know why, but I checked one last time…almost wish I hadn’t. But quickly:
Surfin- “We ought to take great caution lest we incur an extra penalty for declaring judgments met out on God’s behalf.”
“Declaring” would be the key word there, maybe? If you can show me where the Church teaches that speculating on what God may be doing is a sin, let me know. Lots of good people have been doing it on the scandals. And it seems pretty reasonable to me. Letting men in with problems with sexual deviancy seems to have resulted in a judgment, doesn’t it? Or do you think the fact this was all brought out was from the devil and everything is just fine?
Surfin- “First, your point was not made clearly in your previous post.”
Which was why clarified, right?
Surfin- “While I could never condone priests violating vows of poverty, as I said, I have personally never seen it done, and I would venture to say that it is merely the exception to the rule.”
Parish priests are not bound by vows of chastity, Surfin. That’s not the problem. Surrounding oneself with luxury is. It confuses the affections.
Surfin- “You disagree that linking problems of spending in the Church and homosexual culture is out of line? I would like to see how in the world one could possibly draw a connection between the two, without audaciously declaring that a significant portion of the priesthood is homosexual. It seemed to me this is what you were inferring, however your position was, again, not stated clearly. Of course we have a problem with a growing homosexual popuation, but what on earth does that have to do with this thread??”
You agree there is a problem with homosexuality. So how is it “out of line” to suggest a connection between excessive wealth and sexual perversion?
I think there is a perfectly logical connection. Our Lord made very clear the dangers of wealth. It easily deludes the mind and hampers the spirit. On a slightly different but related track, which country is the greatest purveyor of pornography in the world? The richest country–ours. IMO, not coincidental.
Now, I really am off to dinner.
Merry Christmas and I didn’t mean to upset you…
I don’t know why, but I checked one last time…almost wish I hadn’t. But quickly:
Surfin- “We ought to take great caution lest we incur an extra penalty for declaring judgments met out on God’s behalf.”
“Declaring” would be the key word there, maybe? If you can show me where the Church teaches that speculating on what God may be doing is a sin, let me know. Lots of good people have been doing it on the scandals. And it seems pretty reasonable to me. Letting men in with problems with sexual deviancy seems to have resulted in a judgment, doesn’t it? Or do you think the fact this was all brought out was from the devil and everything is just fine?
Surfin- “First, your point was not made clearly in your previous post.”
Which was why clarified, right?
Surfin- “While I could never condone priests violating vows of poverty, as I said, I have personally never seen it done, and I would venture to say that it is merely the exception to the rule.”
Parish priests are not bound by vows of chastity, Surfin. That’s not the problem. Surrounding oneself with luxury is. It confuses the affections.
Surfin- “You disagree that linking problems of spending in the Church and homosexual culture is out of line? I would like to see how in the world one could possibly draw a connection between the two, without audaciously declaring that a significant portion of the priesthood is homosexual. It seemed to me this is what you were inferring, however your position was, again, not stated clearly. Of course we have a problem with a growing homosexual popuation, but what on earth does that have to do with this thread??”
You agree there is a problem with homosexuality. So how is it “out of line” to suggest a connection between excessive wealth and sexual perversion?
I think there is a perfectly logical connection. Our Lord made very clear the dangers of wealth. It easily deludes the mind and hampers the spirit. On a slightly different but related track, which country is the greatest purveyor of pornography in the world? The richest country–ours. IMO, not coincidental.
Now, I really am off to dinner.
Merry Christmas and I didn’t mean to upset you…
S
surfinpure
Guest
Augustine,
I could take the time to type out plenty of responses to your post, but I believe that would be a mistake. You and I clearly are not on the same page. The bottom line is that the bone you have to pick with a handful of our priests has very little to do with the reason I started this thread - namely, in order to gather information in order to help me make an answer to my brother the agnostic. Now, if you happen to have any figures, studies, books, articles, links, or other sources that would help me, by all means, share.
I could take the time to type out plenty of responses to your post, but I believe that would be a mistake. You and I clearly are not on the same page. The bottom line is that the bone you have to pick with a handful of our priests has very little to do with the reason I started this thread - namely, in order to gather information in order to help me make an answer to my brother the agnostic. Now, if you happen to have any figures, studies, books, articles, links, or other sources that would help me, by all means, share.
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stargazer257
Guest
Well, Bill chipped in on our copies of XP. I can’t speak for others.
And sure, putting more pc’s in front of more students will help MS sell more software, but it also gives the students the tools and therefore the experience that they will need to be competitive (or at least, competent) when they move on to the next level of schooling (high school, college…)
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Augustine22
Guest
Surf(name removed by moderator)ure,
This was your original post:
“I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.” What in the world does one say to a thing like that?”
My first post was directed primarily to that. I said that I didn’t believe that this charge was true, about the Vatican at least. But that there was truth on the local level. When I briefly scanned the replies, I didn’t see much about the local Church. Only the Vatican, and others already gave some pretty good thoughts, imo.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve found that “answering” a person best begins with a solid effort to both understand and then see the possible validity in their objections and points before embarking on a “refutation”.
And that was one reason I posted what I did. I don’t think your brother is completely wrong or at least he isn’t crazy for thinking that. In my experience, if you don’t acknowledge that there may really be problems in this area, you will probably close him off to listening to you. He may end up feeling disrespected. If you completely disagree that there is a problem in the area of excessive wealth or luxury then that’s fine. Maybe there really isn’t this problem in your area of the country and so there is no need to address it with him because he hasn’t seen it.
But even if a person sees this as a problem, that doesn’t mean that the Church is not still the Church and he shouldn’t be Catholic. Whether sexual deviancy, covetousness or whatever, priests and bishops are human and some are bound to fall. There may be areas where certain problems or sins are more prevalent. Judas fell. Jesus picked him. Does that mean Jesus Christ wasn’t Jesus Christ?
Good luck in helping him.
This was your original post:
“I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.” What in the world does one say to a thing like that?”
My first post was directed primarily to that. I said that I didn’t believe that this charge was true, about the Vatican at least. But that there was truth on the local level. When I briefly scanned the replies, I didn’t see much about the local Church. Only the Vatican, and others already gave some pretty good thoughts, imo.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve found that “answering” a person best begins with a solid effort to both understand and then see the possible validity in their objections and points before embarking on a “refutation”.
And that was one reason I posted what I did. I don’t think your brother is completely wrong or at least he isn’t crazy for thinking that. In my experience, if you don’t acknowledge that there may really be problems in this area, you will probably close him off to listening to you. He may end up feeling disrespected. If you completely disagree that there is a problem in the area of excessive wealth or luxury then that’s fine. Maybe there really isn’t this problem in your area of the country and so there is no need to address it with him because he hasn’t seen it.
But even if a person sees this as a problem, that doesn’t mean that the Church is not still the Church and he shouldn’t be Catholic. Whether sexual deviancy, covetousness or whatever, priests and bishops are human and some are bound to fall. There may be areas where certain problems or sins are more prevalent. Judas fell. Jesus picked him. Does that mean Jesus Christ wasn’t Jesus Christ?
Good luck in helping him.
H
happygal
Guest
Why bother which Pastor is rich, or Vatican are wealthy?? Most importantly use that money to help the poor will do. God give us provision in other to help those less fortunate ones.
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Brett_Barnes
Guest
Answer: “If you were 2,000 years old, you would be ‘wealthy’ too.”
We gain wealth as we grow older. We know more and gain more knowledge as we grow older. We gain more wealth as we spend our lives gaining the things we need, shelter, clothing, etc. We gain spritually as well. Each Mass holds new treasures for us all.
The church’s perceived “wealth” is based on the fact that it is a very old insittution that has grown in wealth based on its longevity.
Could the church scrap everything and help the poor? Sure they could but give a man a fish and he eats today, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
The church belongs to all Christians, not just Catholics, our history and tradition is the foundation of all Christianity. The church also belongs to all future Christians. We cannot sell-off their inheretance.
Imagine if the Church, for example, had liquidated it’s assets to rebuild Europe after the Great Plague? Would we even have our bibles? Would we even know of Christ?
St. Peter’s may be oppulent, but it does not belong to the Pope, it belongs to all of us. As does the rest of the Church’s “wealth”.
We gain wealth as we grow older. We know more and gain more knowledge as we grow older. We gain more wealth as we spend our lives gaining the things we need, shelter, clothing, etc. We gain spritually as well. Each Mass holds new treasures for us all.
The church’s perceived “wealth” is based on the fact that it is a very old insittution that has grown in wealth based on its longevity.
Could the church scrap everything and help the poor? Sure they could but give a man a fish and he eats today, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
The church belongs to all Christians, not just Catholics, our history and tradition is the foundation of all Christianity. The church also belongs to all future Christians. We cannot sell-off their inheretance.
Imagine if the Church, for example, had liquidated it’s assets to rebuild Europe after the Great Plague? Would we even have our bibles? Would we even know of Christ?
St. Peter’s may be oppulent, but it does not belong to the Pope, it belongs to all of us. As does the rest of the Church’s “wealth”.
- Status