Church is too wealthy?

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Augustine,

Well, I can understand and sympathize with your perspective, if only in this regard. I believe what you are saying is that you would like to speak to this particular area of the allegation and agree that, at least in this respect, there is something to the charge. Very well; I can accept that. I suppose I was thrown off because I am viewing the Church wholistically here, as the charge seems to be applied by my brother.

I will concede that, from the perspective that all priests are also men, complete with concupiscence, certainly some are bound to fall prey to certain temptations. Since gaining wealth in America is a far less obvious or abominable sin to the public than, say, immorality, it naturally follows that this would be a greater temptation to a priest.

I still stand by what I have said regarding the Lord Almighty’s judgment of sinners. I don’t believe it is even for us to speculate on. Also, I repeat emphatically that I would never equate spending on the part of a priest with homosexuality. While my Catechism is not handy, I can say with certainty that presuming sin on the part of another is a grave sin in itself. So perhaps you have seen a priest spend too much or save too much. That is as far as the observation can go. You cannot even declare that he has done so against his conscience. For all you know, he may have believed himself to be doing a good thing for a good reason. “Man looks on the outward appearance, but GOD looks on the heart.” Only our Lord can decide to what degree a man is culpable.

Regarding specifically the idea that overspending leads to confused sexual urges, I say “hogwash.” I know many men and women who are engulfed in materialism, and none of them to date has crossed the line into homosexuality. What’s more, in the case of Christians, materialism seems to serve as a substitute for other sins of the flesh, since it is culturally acceptabe. Unless you have had some personal experience in the matter or are trained in that specific area of moral psychology, I would suggest leaving the subject alone.
Augustine22 said:
Surf(name removed by moderator)ure,

This was your original post:

“I need help in answering the allegation that the Church, particularly the Pope and the Vatican, is hypocritical (even Pharisaical) in that it ammasses and hoards great wealth, and that the Pope lives “like a king.” What in the world does one say to a thing like that?”

My first post was directed primarily to that. I said that I didn’t believe that this charge was true, about the Vatican at least. But that there was truth on the local level. When I briefly scanned the replies, I didn’t see much about the local Church. Only the Vatican, and others already gave some pretty good thoughts, imo.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve found that “answering” a person best begins with a solid effort to both understand and then see the possible validity in their objections and points before embarking on a “refutation”.

And that was one reason I posted what I did. I don’t think your brother is completely wrong or at least he isn’t crazy for thinking that. In my experience, if you don’t acknowledge that there may really be problems in this area, you will probably close him off to listening to you. He may end up feeling disrespected. If you completely disagree that there is a problem in the area of excessive wealth or luxury then that’s fine. Maybe there really isn’t this problem in your area of the country and so there is no need to address it with him because he hasn’t seen it.

But even if a person sees this as a problem, that doesn’t mean that the Church is not still the Church and he shouldn’t be Catholic. Whether sexual deviancy, covetousness or whatever, priests and bishops are human and some are bound to fall. There may be areas where certain problems or sins are more prevalent. Judas fell. Jesus picked him. Does that mean Jesus Christ wasn’t Jesus Christ?

Good luck in helping him.
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When people criticize the church for it’s wealth, why o why must they count the assets and not the liabilities? The church has an obligation to spread the gospel, and that of course costs money, time and talent. I wish we Catholics would give more money to the Church. There is a large baptist church near me that collects $40,000 per week. Imagine the evangelization we could do if we brought in that kind of money! Of course, nobody criticizes that Baptist church for having too much money.
 
From Newsweek - "The Pope Wears Prada"

**"He may never make the best-dressed lists, but Pope Benedict XVI is nothing short of a religious-fashion icon, riding in the Popemobile with red Prada loafers under his cassock and Gucci shades. But his penchant for designer wear and a move to ditch the papal tailors who have dressed popes for more than 200 years are causing new wrinkles in the Vatican"
**
Here’s the rest - msnbc.msn.com/id/10016674/site/newsweek/

Can anyone tell me why Prada shoes and Gucci shades are necessary? This pope in particular is caught up in what he wears. Editing his cassocks with pretty sequence and glitter nuances. I included this nice little factoid in the “Effeminate Priests” thread which proved to be quite a hit.

To the poster who was attempting to connect some made up dots regarding homosexuality, posh fashion and wealth in the priesthood, can you possibly justify why the pope would hire Prada and Gucci to design his overly sequenced get-up? Humility anyone?
 
Can anyone tell me why Prada shoes and Gucci shades are necessary?
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Can anyone tell me why any car fancier than a Chevy Cavalier or any house larger than 2,000 square feet are necessary? It always seems easier to point out the luxuries that someone else has than to point the finger at ourselves and see the many superfluous things in our own lives.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
It always seems easier to point out the luxuries that someone else has than to point the finger at ourselves and see the many superfluous things in our own lives.
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But when that “someone” is the pope?

I went to the Vatican last year and I am not saying that the RCC should sell any of the gifts, art, and treasure that it has received in the last 2000 years. In fact, by displaying it the way they do is important to posterity, as it really is a history lesson in and of itself.

However, I am merely pointing out that there are clearly some materialistic items that some clergy (Catholic and other) flaunt, including the pope, which could have been put to better use (monetarily).

Someone else had the audacity to connect materialism with homosexuality in the priesthood. On that premise, I would ask him to attempt to “explain away” the finery that the pope demands.
 
dapper said:
From Newsweek - "The Pope Wears Prada"

**“He may never make the best-dressed lists, but Pope Benedict XVI is nothing short of a religious-fashion icon, riding in the Popemobile with **red Prada loafers ****under his cassock and Gucci shades. But his penchant for designer wear and a move to ditch the papal tailors who have dressed popes for more than 200 years are causing new wrinkles in the Vatican”

Here’s the rest - msnbc.msn.com/id/10016674/site/newsweek/

Can anyone tell me why Prada shoes and Gucci shades are necessary? This pope in particular is caught up in what he wears. Editing his cassocks with pretty sequence and glitter nuances. I included this nice little factoid in the “Effeminate Priests” thread which proved to be quite a hit.

To the poster who was attempting to connect some made up dots regarding homosexuality, posh fashion and wealth in the priesthood, can you possibly justify why the pope would hire Prada and Gucci to design his overly sequenced get-up? Humility anyone?
Click to expand...
  1. The word is “sequins,” not “sequence.” A sequence is a series of events.
  2. I have never trusted NBC or Newsweek to provide accurate information on any subject, and I do not trust them in this case either. Read the book Bias, by Bernard Goldberg. Perhaps you’ll reconsider whose “news” you’re going to believe.
  3. Even *if *information about the shoes/sunglasses is accurate … so what? It is commonly known that the Pope is given many such items. Perhaps he wore them once to honor the intent of the donor and then gave them away. Who knows? And I see no problem with changing tailors. I believe papal vestments should be ornately beautiful, just as I believe church buildings should be so.
  4. Are you attempting to in some roundabout way insinuate that the Holy Father is homosexual?
 
surf(name removed by moderator)ure said:
  1. The word is “sequins,” not “sequence.” A sequence is a series of events.
  2. I have never trusted NBC or Newsweek to provide accurate information on any subject, and I do not trust them in this case either. Read the book Bias, by Bernard Goldberg. Perhaps you’ll reconsider whose “news” you’re going to believe.
  3. Even *if *information about the shoes/sunglasses is accurate … so what? It is commonly known that the Pope is given many such items. Perhaps he wore them once to honor the intent of the donor and then gave them away. Who knows? And I see no problem with changing tailors. I believe papal vestments should be ornately beautiful, just as I believe church buildings should be so.
  4. Are you attempting to in some roundabout way insinuate that the Holy Father is homosexual?
Click to expand...
Forgive my mispelling. And with regards to the rest, please re-read what I am saying. I am not implying that the pope is gay. I am correlating the previous post that stated materialism has a connection to homosexuality and the preisthood.
 
Wear it once and throw it away huh? Wow, thats pretty fabulous… and highly unlikely. :nope:

My point here is that your brother is probably on to something. I have no problem with the church and its history and gifts but there are many priests and clergy (* including the pope *) that to me, should project a little more frugality in their appearance and how they live…you know, as Jesus did. I thought the last pope did a good job with that. This pope however demands taste while churches and Catholic schools are closing all over the place.

I know it’s not a problem for you to have your pope dressed up in SEQUINS, but when attempting to make a point refuting the opulence of the RCC, he is hardly a good example of simple living.

Someone did mention the RCC’s liabilities and there is merit to that. I just think that the shepherds could do a better job at setting an example by their own actions.
 
Surf(name removed by moderator)ure-

“Regarding specifically the idea that overspending leads to confused sexual urges, I say “hogwash.” I know many men and women who are engulfed in materialism, and none of them to date has crossed the line into homosexuality. What’s more, in the case of Christians, materialism seems to serve as a substitute for other sins of the flesh, since it is culturally acceptabe. Unless you have had some personal experience in the matter or are trained in that specific area of moral psychology, I would suggest leaving the subject alone.”

At least based on what you wrote before this in your last entry, we seem to somewhat understand one another now. But this (what you wrote directly above) is a mischaracterization of what I wrote.

If you re-read my first entry, I didn’t say that spending causes homosexuality. (Although, if you read St. Paul, he teaches that sins blind and can lead to more and deepened sinfulness. So even this is not an illogical idea. Read Romans 1 in particular). Here is what I wrote:

"Too many priests and bishops seem to really LOVE nice things…

May have to do with the decadent homosexual culture in some places?"

So, I was suggesting a reverse connection to what you thought I meant. The sexual decadence and perversity of the homosexual culture often extends to material decadence as well. Homosexual decadence is not a novel idea. And the fact is, there is a problem with homosexual influence in the Church, especially in the Western world.

And yes, what I wrote is based on both a level of experience in psychology and personal experience, too. As I said, I have many priest friends. And I don’t mean 2 or 3.

Peace.
 
RE: the pope & his Prada shoes

Do we need to begrudge an old man a pair of comfortable shoes?

Should he instead wear a $9.99 fake plastic leather shoes made in China by slave labor?

I figure he’s more in line with the European style of owning a couple of nice items of clothing and getting some good wear out of them, vs. the American way of having a closet full of cheap goods. Expensive is not the same as decadent, if what you’re paying for is good quality that lasts. Not that I would know if Prada is good quality. My shoes are made in China.

RE: the topic in general… if people are so concerned about the poor, then they should give away all their stuff to the poor and live as a beggar, like St. Francis. Once they’ve done that, then they can criticize the church for what it does with its wealth, monetary and otherwise. Talk is cheap, and it’s easy to point fingers and call out hypocrisy in the Church, other Christians, and generally everyone but yourself. Charity begins at home.
 
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