Church law vs reality

[Sr_Sally]

I wanted to chime in on this thread as well. My parish is bursting with children, but not every family is large. There are so many reasons why a couple may not have 4+ kids. Many have been outlined here. On thing we can all do is pray for those large familes you do see. And pray for the small families. Pray for young couples who don’t have children yet. Pray for young singles as they discern marriage and family life. Pray for older couples to be supportive of the young families they come in contact with. Pray for vocations to the priesthood and religious life. Pray that your parish have an orthodox NFP teaching couple.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

We’d ask that people “keep it real” in this thread.

I apologize, David. The way I took the original post, I thought we were having a more philosophical discussion, so I kept my answer very general.

I would like to also encourage you (like so many others already have) to look into Natural Family Planning. The Church is not against “birth control” so to speak, just artificial means of controlling family size. NFP and abstinence are morally acceptable means of controlling that aspect of your life, and you seem to have valid reasons for doing so!

 

[cathgoyo]

Thank you David and wife for sharing your great cross with us. My husband and I shall be praying for this depression to go away. I worked in Psych for years and came to understand the only good thing about depression is that it does always go away, always! So keep your rosary in hand, and Our Lady of Sorrows herself, shall bring peace to your mind and soul.

About spacing little ones or not, our daughter and her husband practice & teach NFP. They now have 6 children, just lost a pair of twins (2 months preg, a miscarriage). This was very hard on both of them and may well be what Our Lord has in mind that they wait a little time before having more! Time is on our side of Eternity, while God’s Heaven has no time. God shall not give you more than you can handle. This suffering is being used for the sanctification of many souls. Please remember us in your suffering ?

I am of the opinion that a good Priest with sound understanding of what depression is all about could help you at this time. Spiritual direction is a must for couples undergoing the trials of this world. Your wife seems to have great understanding of today’s Church, despite being in for such a short time.

God loves you.
gloria

.

 

[jc-servant]

My parish is overflowing with kids of all ages. However, we also have lots of small families and couples with no children. Looking at them at mass might not give a clue as to why they have that size family. For instance, I have some friends who only recently married for the first time in their 40’s and older. Someone looking at these couples might think, “Where are their kids?”

I’m in my early 40’s and I have never married. Who knows what people think when they see me? I’ve had many people assume that I’m divorced either with or without kids rather than never married with no kids. I think that family size has been affected in the past couple of decades by more women going to college and getting married later in life. It is not all due to artificial contraception.

 

[Potato1]

Hi there, i’m dave’s wife and i hope you don’t mind if i start a thread of my own.

Having only been a part of the catholic faith a few months, it has become increasingly confusing that the church isn’t overflowing with kids, when the law is crystal clear on the prohibition of using contraception of any kind.

is it a case of it being the law that has become obsolete and outdated? a law that alot of good catholics follow but a number of catholics see the need to have smaller families thus ‘ignoring’ that particular law.

i liken it to the fact that technically it is illegal to tape television programmes due to copyright legislation, but most people who wouldn’t want to miss that episode of ‘australian idol’ for instance, knowingly break the law anyway.

it’ll be great to hear your thoughts. thanks.

2 points:
I think you are correct that many Catholics do not follow the “law” I believe this is due to a lack of guidence from the pulpit. (I cant remember anytime hearing a homily on birth control but I sure hear a lot on generic broad issues.

2: Although I am in the US I do know a little about English and Austrailian Law. You are misinterpreting the copywrite law. Anyone can “copy” or record a tv show for later viewing, it is when you are selling those copy’s for profit, or somehow aiding someone to “get around” the pay, news channels that you are in legal territory. Don’t worry though it is a common misconception of what copywrite law is. Feel relieved that you are not “technically breaking the law” when you are tvoing mindless drivel.

 

[1ke]

Is this backed up in the Bible?

Yes, it is.

Jesus told us he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. He not only reinterated each of the Ten Commandments, he expanded upon them. For example, “You have heard it said, ‘though shall not commit adultery.’ But, I tell you a man who looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart.”

Should we keep Kosher?

That is not part of God’s divine Law, therefore the answer to your question is no.

Can someone explain what Gods Natural Law actually is?

The Divine Law and Natural Law are not the same thing, but they are related.

A great book on Natural Law is 50 Questions On The Natural Law: What It Is And Why We Need It by Charles E. Rice

 

[theAuthor]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Jake_Ellison]

That is not part of God’s divine Law, therefore the answer to your question is no.

The bible did provide all the laws about Kosher. Does this mean God changed his mind if at one point we would have had to keep Kosher and we dont now?

 

[Sr_Sally]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

Well since NFP teaches us not to have sex during fertile times if we need to avoid a pregnancy that month, then no “act” is taking place so nothing cane be done during it to prevent contraception. The way you are describing it sounds like a married couple is required to have sex every day and we are not. As we all know, there are many reasons why a particular couple might abstain–even during the non-fertile period.

As to those things a woman has to do, for the sympto-thermal method all a woman HAS to do is take her tempurature each morning. That’s hardly degrading. Checking the other symptoms can be as simply as an awareness or as detailed as interior checks. That again depends on each couple. Perhaps I’m not as squemish as you are, but for a woman to do those brief interior checks on herself isn’t degrading or unnatural to me.

Perhaps popping a pill could be considered less invasive until you think about the way the hormones affect a woman’s body! And there is nothing more unnatural and messy than the various barrier methods.

Just keepin it real folks.

 

[FLCathMom]

There are some couples who are uncomfortable with NFP and instead choose compete abstinence. Like PP said, w/ NFP there is no “act” with which you are interfering.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

Disagree.
“Doing something BEFORE the act, DURING the act, or AFTER the act”… implies DOING the ACT.

NFP is making the decision to NOT engage in sexual relations.
Totally different.

 

[maria29]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

This is what Pope John Paul II said about it:

"At the same time, the use of the natural methods gives a couple an openness to life, which is truly a splendid gift of God’s goodness**. It also helps them deepen their conjugal communication and draw closer to one another in their union - a closeness that lasts throughout their lives**. "

The Church has encourage couples to learn NFP. Can NFP be used for the wrong reasons, of course! I’m not sure how you find NFP to be degrading to women especially in light of what the Pope says.

 

[mercygate]

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

Early in our marriage, as non-Catholics, we contracepted using condoms, diaphragm or the pill at different times. If you think monitoring the natural cycle of a woman’s hormones is unnatural/degrading, in contrast with inserting a diaphragm or using a condom (yuck! ugh!) or putting chemicals into your system to thwart conception, then you need to revisit your ideas of “unnantural” and “degrading.”

NOTHING is more degrading than the language of contraception that says: I want your (unmentionables) but I want no part of your fertility or your children. Talk about a turn-off!

Our marriage notched up several dozen layers in quality when we intuited the wisdom of not contracepting and went with God’s plan. We didn’t even know about NFP and used the old rhythm method. BTW: we found and used NFP to CONCEIVE because it gives you a really good position on your fertility.

 

[rayne89]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

Uh taking your temp orally is degrading? Most of the other stuff you can do within seconds when you go to the bathroom, big whoop. And putting a condom on is oh is so natural and edifying.Just really heps keep the romantic mood. Just keeping it real.

Ofcourse if your going with the pill than you risk aborting newly conceived children and that really brings Glory to God right? This isn’t about what is the easiest choice, it’s what is the right choice. As someone who has used NFP for 10 years I know our marriage has been richly blessed by turning away for the worlds “easy choice”.

 

[stayathomemommy]

I think its a case of the “caffeteria Catholic” They take what they want to believe and forget the rest.

And sorry but so what if people dont understand the law…that doesnt make it ok to do it anyway! I might not understand why we cant drink and drive BUT I still dont do it. (i do understand why we cant drink and drive but i cant think of another example) I think its very well known that we do not support any contreception. If people dont understand it they still need to follow it and learn about it for themselves. I am tired of people not finding the info they need and then giving the cop out that they just were never taught that!

I do wish Priests would talk about it more during Mass. No sugar coating it. But I also see it as the fault of the people that go every Sunday but dont dig in deep to learn more about their faith and be active participants.

 

[stayathomemommy]

Also, I can’t stand those who call the Church outdated and attempt to make it “hip to the times”. There are plenty of churches out there that let you believe whatever you want. Don’t go and try to change my Church!

 

[Socio_Momma]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception” It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

Knowing your basic medical health and understanding the gift of the body, sexuality & fertility is not degrading.

What is degrading is treating any of these things as though they were wastes or something that was diseased. Barriers do the former, while hormones & sterilization do the latter. Further, all these methods do nothing to understand one’s fertility or one’s health. And all work to actively stop full union of 2 fleshes into 1, attempting to divide us as a couple something that is contrary to the purpose of Marriage. If that’s not the opposite of bringing Glory to God then what is? Certainly not NFP which requires understanding, cooperation, and respect for what God has given in all areas & for the couple to hold nothing back from each becoming 1 flesh in both the literal & spiritual sense. God gave us faith & reason to be used together, NFP gives us knowledge we can use the combined facets of our faith (prayerful discernment) & reason to be guided by God on whether or not to have sex.

To be very accurate NFP does not actually prevent conception and the entirity of it works with God in the natural order. NFP is using information on a woman’s fertility and deciding on whether to have sex or abstain for a period of time through prayerful discernment. Abstaining is a choice & it is something we do all the time for all sorts of reasons. If not just imagine if we all acted on every sexual impulse? But the reality is that we don’t, instead we abstain because it’s not the right time or there is a serious reason to avoid sex (like we are in public, spouse is ill etc).

Again you have to actually have sex in order to prevent it or to work contra. This isn’t what NFP does. While some may try to stick it in with other family planning methods the simple fact that for NFP to work there is no sex. With every other method for the method to work there must be sex. NFP is not cut from the same cloth as contra-ceptive methods. With every act of sex one does with NFP it is by its very nature open to life, nothing about the sexual union is divided out & fertility is treated with respect. It does nothing unnatural to stop or hinder life, nothing working contra (against) the actual sex act instead it is still the totality of the sex act & the reflection of the marriage present. Contraception also only has the illusion of control, in the end the reality is that God is in control. NFP recognizes this and works with God, not directly against (contra).

There is one choice given by God available if a couple has to avoid a pregnancy, it’s abstaining from sex. NFP is a manner of choosing a periodic level of abstaining based on scientific information for the individual woman’s fertility, it is highly effective as previously noted when correctly & consistently used. It allows for a couple to come together after a short time of abstaining during a women’s peak fertility. Moreover, when a couple does choose to have sex with NFP they recognize that they are being open to life within that act (even if the probablity of pregnancy is slim) & within their marriage. They accept all of each other & all of God (keping open to the ultimate life giver). They don’t cut out the openess to life just because they want to “keep it real” instead the embrace actual reality with NFP.

Hope that was real enough…

 

[1ke]

I’m being called away to dinner. Will read posts later, but wanted to say that as far as I am concerned, NFP is indeeeeeeed “doing something before, during or after the act to prevent conception”

There is no act.

It, by it’s very nature if used to try and circumvent conception

Then by that definition I’m circumventing conception right now because I’m sitting at my computer and not having sex. But, since the Church does not give us a positive law that we must have sex every day, or any day, then in fact your logic is flawed.

is not really “being open to the possibility of conception.” Is it? Just keepin it real folks.

That is not the criteria. Objectively procreative is the criteria. And, yes, any unaltered act of intercourse between spouses is objectively procreative even if subjectively infertile.

I can’t think of anything more unnatural/ degrading/ and the opposite of bringing Glory to God than the things a woman has to do in the early days of her cycle to test fertility using NFP, but that’s just my opinion.

As opposed to the natural and uplifting act of pumping my body full of synthetic hormones.

I disagree with your assessment regarding NFP, both the “unnatural” and “degrading” terms you have applied. It’s completely natural and in no way degrades me as a woman.

 

[1ke]

The bible did provide all the laws about Kosher. Does this mean God changed his mind if at one point we would have had to keep Kosher and we dont now?

Something is not part of the divine law merely by virtue of being *contained *in the bible.

The kosher law is not part of God’s *divine *law. The kosher laws were *ceremonial *laws of the Jews, not the divine law of God.

 

[theAuthor]

Nova147, thankyou for being honest that many Catholics do not follow th elaw when it comes to contraception. I am in a position where I need to be adapted to reality not the ideal. Thanks for your prayers, and congrats on the coming baby. In an ideal world I would like another one.

Apryl, changing jobs would require some intestinal fortitude I lack. It may also cure my depression. Unfortunately in the town where we are from there are no jobs (everyone moves to the city).

Thanks for everyone’s prayers! Yes I am getting treated, but the suicidal ideation is getting worse. The FDA reckons that can be a side-effect of the meds themselves!

Genesis, betrothed sometimes did have intercourse in Mary’s time. Apparently that was ok.

NFP inisists on abstaining when the woman is most in the mood for sex. We also have to take our opportunities when we can (no babysitters remember?)

cathgoyo, I do have a few Priest as friends that I can talk to. I have gotten three different answers! The closest to me of these three gave me a “way out”, but said, “It’s not that you disagree with the Church’s right to make laws concerning morality, it’s just that you feel unable to keep this particular one. You need to pray for the Lord’s mercy.” He also recommended NFP, but was “more” against vasectomy which was what I was considering, than other non-permanent forms of contraception. He made the point that if my wife were to use the pill and fall pregnant anyway that we’d keep the baby. So he said, “See, you aren’t totally closed to conception then!”

Potato1, Australian Copyright Law was recently updated, and it is no longer illegal to tape TV shows. It was decided to bring the law in line with community standards, since technically everyone would have been a criminal! The “everybody does it” bit, like speeding sometimes, was what my wife was getting at.