Church law vs reality

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As an aside, and this is a question. My wife has started to get her period again, and suffers from very bad pain (endometriosis). Before we were Catholic, when we were first married, my wife had to go on the pill to control those symptoms. There was no contraceptive motive, we used withdrawal anyway. Is Catholic teaching against “the pill” when it is being used for hormonal regulation for pain relief?
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=43491&highlight=pill+medical+reasons

link to Apologists answer to using the pill for medical reasons.

David, just wanted you to know that the discrepancy between what Catholics do and what they are suppose to do is a big impediment to my husband. He’s a Protestant and he tells me often that the Catholics he knows at work and around town aren’t like the crowd we run around with. It’s very frustrating to him.

But, this is not a new problem. Read the Acts of the Apostles. Read St. Paul’s letters. There has always been discrepancies between what we should do and what we do.

It all comes down to original sin. The effects of original sin have clouded our reason. And, they have left us with concupisence–so “our flesh is weak” even when we desire to do the right thing.

As loving Catholics, we assume that the imperfect practice of the Catholic faith is due to ignorance and weakness and not willful sinning.

Don’t compare your faith to the world and its imperfect people. Look to God. Be perfect as your Heavenly father is perfect.

to God we are just children. You don’t expect all children to know advanced Math, right? Some kids get there because they diligently work at it. Some drop out because it’s just too hard. Some are never taught.
 
Yes, reality sometimes is different than the ideal but you seem to have confused what that is. The ideal would be that no one would ever need to abstain & that there would no reason to ever avoid a pregnancy but the reality is sometimes for all sorts of reasons that come from man’s original sin we may have to abstain. This is a hard reality & that’s why so many people choose the illusion of contraception. Not because it’s more “real” but because it allows for them a perception of escaping reality.

The reality that because of the world we live in, we need God more than ever & we need to co-operate with God this includes in the bedroom. However, contraception doesn’t recognize this instead it causes more separation from God & from our partner when we do this. The unitive and the procreative aspects are not to be purposely divided. This isn’t the same as say being menopausal by result to the natural aging–the couple isn’t purposly dividing out anything & the act is still open to life. There is really a very simple reason to be open to life. This is a spiritually deep action of being open to the lifeforce of God in the marriage & during the sexual act when we do not use contraception, during the act of sex we give everything to each & to God. By not separating this out we are as Adam & Eve before the fall, it’s the closest to God we will get when we give ourselves completly over to our spouses & remain totally open to God’s life giving force in that process.

However, while God understands we are not perfect we are still to strive for holiness & while He is always ready to accept us with open arms when we sin. His love should not be taken for granted, that only adds to the separation here on Earth. This is important because that separation can be permanent in the afterlife. Something that no one should ever accept.

Progress isn’t causing a literal & spirital divide between spouses & God in the marriage, between humanity & the Divine one in the daily experience of the world, progress is not rejecting the life giving force with contraception. Don’t do what studies tell you 90% of Catholics do, that’s not progress. It’s a dangerous line many people tread (I pray for their sakes it is really unknowingly), one that isn’t just about just following a set of rules but it is about the ultimate reality which is found in Christ. Christ gave us His Life, His Church, & yes His Laws, when we reject this in full or in part, we say “Christ I love you but only enough to do what I want”. And the reality is that’s not really love at all. Love is sometimes doing because it’s the right thing to do even when we don’t want to, it’s giving ourselves when we want to hold back, it’s taking a leap of faith.

We cannot accept merely what everyone else is doing, especially when what they accepts is not reality but illusion that does lead to the ruin of souls. I once seemed bent on helping to pave that illusory road & I can tell you that it’s not what it seems. It’s not what is real or filling, it wasn’t even easier. It had it’s own difficulties that were made harder by not living out a love for Christ. Now I have different challenges & struggles but these I carry out of love.

Real progress is living the faith amidst struggle, it’s continuing even when we want to give up, progress is perservance. Everyone struggles & that’s a reality. The faith is not about existing in abstract ideals, it is about existing in reality & knowing that we don’t make it through this existence alone. We only perserve because of Christ, if we remove ourselves from Him, if we take Him slowly out of our daily experiences & we live apart from Him. How can we perserve? It’s within the daily experience with Him, the struggles of doing even when we don’t want to for Him, of accepting that which is hard because we know He will sustain us that we are living the faith & sharing love.

I will continue to pray for you & this situation. :gopray2:
 
When you die, God will not look at anyone else but you. That is something I have to remind myself of all the time, because our world works quite differently. Down here, you just have to be good enough, relative to the people around you.

But am I right in saying God is not judging on a curve? I know it must be hard, and there are many people who are not following the teachings of the church for much “lesser” reasons, but that is none of your concern. It doesn’t give you “permission” to do the same. Frustrate you? Of course. Those things frustrate me as well.

You could get everyone on this board and every priest you know to give you the go ahead on what you want to do, but in the end it won’t matter, we will be nowhere to be found when it’s your time to answer God’s questions.
 
Leonie, thanks for the link. It looks like it will be out of my hands anyway, as my wife has her period for the second time in a couple of years and is in extreme pain. Although I am sure her motives are mixed, she, well, let’s just say you can make her do what she doesn’t want to do.

Socio_Momma, I actually related a lot to your post. I suffer severe depression and still force myself to get up and go to work every day, even though I spend most of the day in emotional painm and want to “end it all”. My whole life seems to be about doing what I don’t feel like doing, so don’t dismiss me as weak in that regard. My only joys are music and my kids, really. As regards to progress, without going into detail you’d have to know where my starting point was to know if I’m making progress and I won’t divulge the manifold sins that have been overcome right now. I may or may not have shared that we are not a sex everyday couple, either, we are currently using NFP (well, more abstinence in fact). I don’t see it as healthy in the long term to deny the Unitive part of lovemaking, if my wife goes where I think she will go with this; she has endometriosis.

Would you expect us, if my wife decided to use the OCP to reduce her period pain to manageable levels, to remain abstinent? I don’t like the OCP because it can be abortive.

HouseArrest, I am sure that God in his love knows me and my weakness and I thank HIm that He and not many of my Christian brothers and sisters will judge me. God knows that I have been suffering and holding on, because as Augustine taught: if one commits suicide, he commits murder without a chance to repent. Hence, it is likely he is hellbound. If my fellow humans are capable of loving and forgiving, then how much more is my God capable of that?

BTW, thanks everyone for your prayers. I had moments today of not only not feeling depressed, but feeling actually happy, contented and peaceful in a loooong time.👍
 
Actually, can I ask people to pray a “weird” prayer for me? I am obviously experiencing the power of prayer at the moment to have the relief I am having. Could people please pray that God will take it as though they continued their prayers for me forever? I’d like to be cured of this thing. Today, when the clouds lifted, I found myself wondering why I’d want to end such a wonderful gift such as life that God has given us. But just thursday was one of my worst days ever. So please, it may seem a silly prayer, but I have faith that the prayers of the righteous avail much- they are at the moment. God Bless you all.
 
I will pray for healing for you and your wife. Please try to get to Mass as often as you can to receive Jesus in the Eucharist. I know you said that it is hard to make it through Mass with a toddler and believe me, I know it is. Perhaps you and your wife could take turns going- does your church have more than one Mass you could attend? It’s a solution many families with young children come to.

Blessings.
 
davidarlette said:
Actually, can I ask people to pray a “weird” prayer for me? I am obviously experiencing the power of prayer at the moment to have the relief I am having. Could people please pray that God will take it as though they continued their prayers for me forever? I’d like to be cured of this thing. Today, when the clouds lifted, I found myself wondering why I’d want to end such a wonderful gift such as life that God has given us. But just thursday was one of my worst days ever. So please, it may seem a silly prayer, but I have faith that the prayers of the righteous avail much- they are at the moment. God Bless you all.
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Praying for you. :gopray: (I don’t know, but I hope I qualify as righteous 😉 ) I pray you continue to enjoy and embrace the wonderful gift of life that God gave you.
 
davidarlette said:
Actually, can I ask people to pray a “weird” prayer for me? I am obviously experiencing the power of prayer at the moment to have the relief I am having. Could people please pray that God will take it as though they continued their prayers for me forever? I’d like to be cured of this thing. Today, when the clouds lifted, I found myself wondering why I’d want to end such a wonderful gift such as life that God has given us. But just thursday was one of my worst days ever. So please, it may seem a silly prayer, but I have faith that the prayers of the righteous avail much- they are at the moment. God Bless you all.
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This is far from a silly prayer request! I will pray for you to be cured of your depression and your wife of her endometriosis!
 
Having only been a part of the catholic faith a few months, it has become increasingly confusing that the church isn’t overflowing with kids, when the law is crystal clear on the prohibition of using contraception of any kind.
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If you use the “search” function here, and type in NFP or contraception you’ll be reading for years…

I’m also a confused Catholic (born, Baptised, fallen, Confirmed, Married, and still learning)…

In a nutshell (from what I’ve read here)… contraception is having intercourse using chemical or physical barriers/acts to prevent pregnancy. Plain & simple, and not allowed.

NFP = charting fertility, and having sex during the times when the result you want is probable.
An important part of marriage is the physical bond. A man & woman literally couple… a unitive act. And this is good and endorsed by the Church… with a clause/price…your commitment to accept a pregnancy without regret if it happens.

Frankly NFP is the only Church acceptable way to have all the unitive sex you can handle without any regrets or remorse.
You want a child, do it during this time, you don’t want a child, do it during this time. The catch is NFP is not infallible, there’s always that possibility… but as you’ve said, the Church isn’t bulging at the seams with kids…so it usually works…

Am I making any sense here?
 
Thanks all for your prayers.

Jay2, yes you make good sense.

Brenda, a clever idea to pray for my wife! Since we’ve been in the family phase and breast feeding it hasn’t been an issue again until recently. The pain over the weekend had her doubled over. She went to the Dr on Monday who prescribed the OCP for her, but I’m sure she has mixed motives (ie the social isolation, my depression, her own depression which I’ve just found out about, etc). So it seems out of my hands as her husband. To be honest I’m pretty ambivalent about it. I didn’t like seeing the box, but even if her/ our motives were 100% pure, she’s still go on it for her pain I think. At least that is what I’m trying to tell myself. 😊
 
davidarlette said:
Hi there, i’m dave’s wife and i hope you don’t mind if i start a thread of my own.

Having only been a part of the catholic faith a few months, it has become increasingly confusing that the church isn’t overflowing with kids, when the law is crystal clear on the prohibition of using contraception of any kind.

is it a case of it being the law that has become obsolete and outdated?🤷 a law that alot of good catholics follow but a number of catholics see the need to have smaller families thus ‘ignoring’ that particular law.

i liken it to the fact that technically it is illegal to tape television programmes due to copyright legislation, but most people who wouldn’t want to miss that episode of ‘australian idol’ for instance, knowingly break the law anyway.

it’ll be great to hear your thoughts. thanks.😉
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No. Thank goodness, God has finally taken away all sinful urges from Catholics. Now it’s up to us to adopt and convert the heathen children.
 
I wanted to check back with you…I haven’t had the ability to get back online & won’t again for awhile. BUT I wanted to let you know that I will continue to pray for a cure for you, it’s not a silly request at all!! (although I don’t how righteous I am at this pt, I am still a work in progress;)) The same for your wife, endo can be very painful for a woman especially if there are other health issues (like depression) or social constraints (like lack of support). She might benefit from reading Marilyn Shannon’s book Fertility, Cycles & Nutrition. It can help give some ideas on how to manage the reproductive health difficulties she is having, in addition to any other medical intervention that may be required to treat her condition. Having suffered myself from many of the same issues, I empathsize with both of you so much.

Remember, Christ is our model in all ways. He didn’t go to the cross alone, He allowed for others to aid Him in His hour of great need. As He is God He really could have gone without help, but He as our greatest example shows us that when we are suffering we can turn to both God & the ability of God to work through those around us. Remember this example.

Don’t feel as though you cannot ever ask for help to carry your cross, either from Christ (frequent prayer, Mass & the Sacraments) or from your fellow man whom Christ is able to work through here on Earth (medical, spiritual, & emotional etc…). Christ does command us to pick up our crosses & follow Him but He is with us in this struggle & He also gives us each other (just as He allowed Simon of Cyrene to help Him). It is not a bad or silly thing to ask for help or ask for a prayer but it is a great trust in God’s ability to sustain us on this journey of life in all ways.

Many prayers for you, your wife & your marriage! :signofcross:
 
Socio_Momma- thanks for your understanding. I really like your meditation about Simon. One of the best things about becoming Catholic has been the examination of the parts other characters played in Jesus’ life. Like St Veronica wiping his face. And also that Jesus fell three times and got up and kept going. These sorts of things (eg Stations of the Cross) are a real eye-opener for me.

I told my wife I’d like more kids, wasn’t happy about the OCP etc this afternoon, and she assures me she is doing it for the period pain. I’ll let her know about that book. Yes, please keep us in your prayers.

I’m reading the Da Vinci Code at the moment, and surprisingly it has made me stop at various times and meditate on the goodness of God. My introduction to the Catholic Faith was a bit monastic, including the Imitation of Christ, etc, so a lot of the stuff Dan Brown tries to shock with (eg self-flaggelation), I read and go, “yes, so ??” Sorry, a bit off topic.
 
davidarlette said:
The reason I started this thread is that there is often a difference between an ideal and reality. You seem to be stuck on this idea. It seems like what you really want is an ok to contracept so you can have sex without having children. This isn’t ideal vs reality–it’s what God wants vs what I want. It’s just not easy to live this but the reality is that we can. Never is this more apparent than in any Christian’s walk. Because of my depression, I need to adapt to what is, not what should be. Adapting to what “should be” does my head in, because we live in a world often far removed from the Christian ideal–Just because the world is far removed doesn’t mean we need to be. It may make our life more difficult, it may seem like we are missing out on the good life–but thats just because we are buying into what the secular world is telling us.

I’d just like to say that in an “ideal world” that I’d love to have more kids. I love babies. I love to see my wife pregnant,although she gets morning sickness badly. Pregnancy, childbirth (when it goes well), and kids are great and to be celebrated. Well, I celebrate them anyway. :love: From my experience there is never an ideal time to have kids. We recently had our 5th and I don’t ever remember being this tired. Talk about no time for yourself–but see doesn’t that sound selfish? I’m concerned about me and what I want.

I also appreciate the Church’s moral guidance in my life to help me to know right from wrong. Some things I don’t agree with or understand 100%, but if I am going along with what God’s people in the RCC are doing, then that is OK. This is the mistake–you cant judge what you are doing by what other people are doing! We need to judge our actions on the CCC. I am happy to settle for progress rather than perfection. eg It is a mortal sin to miss Sunday Mass. Yet only 10% of Catholics attend Mass of a Sunday. Again don’t worry about the others.Ideally, we’d be there every week. In the real world, our toddler can only make it up to the Homily, the people around us stare and get annoyed I speak from experience–your toddler if there everyweek will get used to it and will be able to make it through. Don’t worry about those around you–they should be happy to have you and your family there. We have never missed Mass because we have small children–even when they are sick–one of us will go to the early service and the other will take the rest of the family to service we normally go to. This might work for you if you don’t want to take the toddler. Thats reality. What it sounds like to me is it’s easier not to make the effort each and every Sunday and so you want to justify not going by telling us to keep it real. and I end up outside from the Offatory onwards. Can’t you stand in the back, participate and still recieve communion? Isn’t that worth going for? Standing in back was not any more fun for my kids than standing in the pew–something learned quickly.:mad:
So I’m happy to just go along with the tide of what Catholics really do, rather than get caught up in ideals that make my depression worse (ie feeling as though I have failed to live up to being as Holy as God would like aka “Catholic guilt”) Catholics really go to Mass every Sunday–I would think making that effort each week would give you a success to feel good about which should help your depression. Giving in and staying home and saying most other do to–is what is making you feel guilty–or you wouldn’t have started this thread. Same with contraception. These are the battle we can win–if we want to…
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Mark, not a bad post. A lot of what I would call “quasi-truth” there. It makes sense perfectly spiritually. I can’t fault what you have said, and yet sometimes Christian ideas that sound good don’t work in real life. Part of my depression is due to adjusting to CCC level morality, rather than the world.

Example: I go to church on Sunday and the Sermon is about not coarse jesting, not using profanity. Then I go to work in health care where people use that sort of humour to balance out the horrible things we see (eg cancer). So someone makes crude jokes and instead of joining in I distance myself from it like the Pastor has said. Then all of a sudden, “You can’t have a joke with Dave, he’s unlikeable.” This will not win anyone to Christ, has made enemies of people who would otherwise be friends, makes work life miserable, but hey, it’s “spiritually correct.”

I actually need to focus on what makes me happy rather than correct.

I am not a saint, and yet I am told to abstain from sex most of the time. And the times we can do it, my wife is not in the mood/ too tired. If I were to “go it alone”, that is a mortal sin and needs to be confessed before receiving Communion again. So now I need to find a way with toddlers to get to Mass early, make a confession, put up with the toddler getting stares. Once again there is the “should” be glad we are there and the stares we actually get. If I take my kids up the back people turn around to look (truly!:mad: ). SO the other option is going outside where you don’t hear the Offatory and it would not feel right to receive Communion having not heard or said those prayers.

When I joined the RCC I joined a Church, a people, how can I not worry about the others?
 
davidarlette said:
…Part of my depression is due to adjusting to CCC level morality, rather than the world…I am not a saint,…When I joined the RCC I joined a Church, a people, how can I not worry about the others?
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David, I am glad you joined the Catholic Church. We are part of the Communion of Saints, but few live as saints yet. It’s not just you who has not attained canonization; the crabby people who give unkind looks to you when you bring your children to Mass haven’t reached sainthood yet either.

I know alot about crabby people who complain about children. I also know a lot about struggling with the temptation to use contraception, and that is one reason why my husband and I don’t use NFP either. We need to be both gentler with ourselves and with others when we sin, balancing that with sincere efforts to stop sinning. It’s tough; few reach the heroic level of canonized Saints. I suspect heaven is populated by people who struggled with sin all the way through to the natural end of their lives. Don’t let the high level of expected moral behavior contribute to your depression; let it bring you hope that you are part of a larger group of people who all struggle with various forms of sin and who seek God’s grace.

Don’t let other people’s sin of crabbiness keep you from seeking the grace God offers you at Mass, in confession and in the other various sacraments and prayers within the Church. The Church does recognizes taking care of very young children as a legitimate reason for missing Sunday Mass, but for me personally, while I find attending Mass with small children exhausting, I also find Mass to be a great source of strength. I also recommend Eucharistic adoration if you can somehow find the time. I don’t go to adoration regularly, but when I go I return to my family refreshed and renewed. Yes, I also worry about what others think, so I no longer bring my children with me to adoration and therefore I don’t get to it as often as I’d like. It’s a balance, and as we grow in grace I think we learn to balance a bit better.
 
davidarlette said:
I actually need to focus on what makes me happy rather than correct.
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Why?

Why is your happiness of higher importance than what is correct?

Overall, I can see how you are in a quandry. Your post was really quite eloquent, and points to a lot of sticky points that a lot of people have challenges with, esp when it comes to matters of the physical sort.

I also appreciate your bringing your question to this forum, which would mean more answers from lay people, rather than from clerics, who may seem like they have removed themselves from the world (I don’t believe they have, but I do understand the impression)

Based upon what you have pointed to as your challenges, I can’t see how lay people could make it make that much sense. I would take it to a cleric - even if they seem removed, they are still trained in these areas.

There is no lay person that could really answer you correctly (although that’s not what seems important to you right now), as a priest could. We can hash this out, and make excuses, but in the end, if you want to do what you want to do, and not what you are supposed to do, that’s your choice, your decision.

In the big scheme of things, looking at your immortal soul, correct is what counts.

It’s not like you don’t know what you are supposed to do, or not supposed to do. Which is why you are in a tougher spot than a lot of others: You know better

Please pray over this issue. I know this is a tough subject, and on the surface, it may not make a lot of sense. But if you try, God will make it work for you.

I do hope that this doesn’t make you consider moving from the Catholic Church… the place where the fullness of the Gospels is present, and you can have the Body and Blood of Christ, and there are so many traditions and teachings that no one can ever deny as being led by Christ.

Life is short. Life is very short, when compared to eternity.
 
Just attending Mass with the littlies is too hard ATM. When I decided to become Catholic it was bsed upon certain ideas and memories:
  1. Mass as a single man. Just being able to concentrate and appreciate the joy of the Eucharist. I was allowed to receive the Eucharist a few times once I believed in transubstantiation a few years ago.
  2. Living in a Presbytery. So I really felt like part of that Parish. It was a time of great growth in spirit and knowledge, and having few posessions/ no TV, etc it helped me feel light, unburdened from posessions and like God was my best friend.
  3. I found that I liked Catholics generally. I was always welcomed and trusted.
  4. I was told that the Catholic Church loves families and is **the **family church, that there was a lot of beauty in the idea of a large family for complany and love.
Compare and contrast that serenity and closeness with self-consciousnes for our distracting children, missing most of Mass anyway.

Oh, and there is the mortal sin thing too. Reading the Catechism, I found out that masturbation is a mortal sin. I had previously been told by a priest and a nun to “Don’t worry about it.” So if I fall in that area even once, I can’t receive Communion until I have Confessed it, which involves arriving an hour before Mass, with the kids.

As for why it is more important to be happy than right, is because I define myself by the rules I conduct myself. I am don’t just obey rules, they are my identity. My Dr is trying to get me to focus on what “I want” rather than “I have to.” I work in a company where the culture is you live to work, not work to live for instance. We are trying to redress that. I go to work to get money to do the things I want to do; that is my new attitude. It’s freeing.
 
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