Church Mariology making me nuts!

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I would suggest for those who seem to be so critical of Our Lady to reread the shaded areas of RC’s excellent post #150 from Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort, and see if you might see a little bit of yourselves in this Saints’ observations.
 
I would suggest for those who seem to be so critical of Our Lady to reread the shaded areas of RC’s excellent post #150 from Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort, and see if you might see a little bit of yourselves in this Saints’ observations.
Not going to happen.

Not only that, I am out of here. Had enough, thank you.
 
I believe --of course I hasten to say this is my opinion and not Church teaching necessarily --😃 that there is an unfortunate tendency for any person who holds any sort of view, religious included, to ‘exaggerate’ the perceived ‘defects’ of the ‘opposing’ view.

The original poster has his./her own idea of what constitutes ‘appropriate’ worship in his/her own personal opinion–and anything which in either direction doesn’t ‘match’ is considered a problem.

Now the fact is that there really is a ‘right’ and a ‘wrong’ way to worship God (and to honor the saints, especially Mary).

For example, we can all I think agree that a wrong way to worship God would be to send ourselves into abortion facilities strapped with bombs and blow ourselves up to ‘save the children’. No matter how we tried to convince ourselves that we were honoring and worshipping God in doing this, we would be wrong. Correct?

So there are definitely ‘right’ ways and wrong ways to do things.

But the right ways can encompass a very broad field and interpretation and manner.

For example, let’s look at a party.

You can have a party that is large, or small. You can have a costume party. You can have a ‘theme’ party. You can have a formal party. You can have a casual party. Etc. etc.

And each individual person’s idea of what is found in, say, ‘formal’ can run from say formal Victorian Britain to ‘formal’ means 'not wearing jeans and Tees".

So. . .the right way of honoring a saint, say, can run from a simple “St. Michael, defend us from the devil” said to oneself after Mass or at home, to a Litany of Saints recited in church and lead by the priest, to lighting a candle and praying for the safety of our soldiers, at home or at church, to reading devotional books and pondering on how to follow our Lord as His saints did, to saying the rosary (at home, in travel, in Church), to composing poetry or creating works of art to honor the saint because of that saint’s reflecting glory and giving the glory ultimately to God . . . etc.

Now, a person who thinks that it is ‘enough and perfect’ to have a calendar with the names of the saints on it, to hear them ‘mentioned’ in Mass, and to address any kind of ‘thinking about religion’ as “I pray ONLY TO GOD” but of course I ‘call Mary blessed’ because Scripture says to, and I think St Paul while a horrible sinner at least ‘saw the light’ (no pun intended) and spoke up about GOD. . .

that person might endure the idea that ‘other people’ might say a rosary now and then, or might look at works of art. . .but that person would start to get ‘uncomfortable’ if he or she saw the person wearing a miraculous medal (superstition! Not God alone!)., . .would definitely start to twitch if he saw a person approach a statue (graven IMAGE! Not God alone!), and would start to lose it completely if the person spoke about praying to Mary or how she is a special creation (you make her a goddess! You’re taking time away from GOD! You’re worshipping a creature"). . .

because that person is so sure that only his idea of what is appropriate worship IS appropriate worship.

Despite the quips about the Blue Army, the only real defense I have seen is people telling others not to run Mary down. (Hardly Mariolatry).

While from the ‘other direction’, the remarks start out as thinly veiled (no pun intended) criticism of ‘other people’ being extreme. . .then accused of either not being smart enough to recognize they were worshipping Mary or being so smart that they were 'trying to pretend they weren’t.'

I cannot help but see that the vast majority of people are simply saying, “Please do not judge others and call them idol worshippers and Mary worshippers, especially when they themselves state that they are not”. . .and that these people are not demanding that others JOIN them by lighting a candle or praying a rosary. In fact, people have been at PAINS to say that the Church does not compel people to do so.

**IOW, there is really little if any ‘Mariology’ exhibited by any Catholic. There is, however, an awful lot of neo-iconoclassicism and a rather "puritan’ kind of attempt to NARROW Catholic worship ‘down’. Some of this, in my OPINION, is actually due to a perception of some cultures --notably the Hispanic but also the earlier (19th and early 20th) century perceptions of Italian, Spanish, and Polish cultures, and even earlier, the mid 19th century Irish cultures --being INFERIOR to the ‘protestant’ Anglo-Saxon, stiff upper lip, ‘no excess’ culture. **

Practices done by these groups are often still seen as ‘inferior’ even in our supposedly multicultural world, and the prejudice is often deeply buried and will be hotly denied. . .but, again in my opinion, it is there. . .
 
I don’t know. Perhaps. But while I hardly see people taking the worship of Our Lady too far (with a few exceptions, ex. those who insist on certain recent apparitions despite the negative opinion of the Church, which is disobedience in my view), every time I am confronted by those who simply oppose any sort of veneration of Our Lady no matter how hard you try to explain, all it comes to mind is Ezekiel 12:2 🤷
AMEN!
 
Yes, even in internet forums, apparently. And even when beating people up for having legitimate but different views from you.
Angels, referring to Catholic Mariology as ‘worship’ is hardly a difference of opinion, it is factual error.

The correct term is hyperdulia.
 
So I’m looking on CA’s forum for the first time in a long time, and this thread caught my attention. All I can say is “what a shame.” Quite honestly it’s threads like this that lead me to take such a long break. They start out great, and end up not-so-great.

But that little “outsider” observation aside…I have a protestant co-worker who somewhat surprisingly shared his quite negative and squarely anti-Catholic views about Mary. While he wasn’t trying to be openly insulting, I don’t think he realized how “anti-Catholic” his views were (Christians should never pray to Mary, Mary certainly had other children aka Jesus certainly had siblings…as “proven” by the phrase “bretheren of the Lord,” how could anyone ever believe that Mary was a propetual virgin, how could anyone believe that Joseph would agree to that…etc). So I’ve recently set-out to learn more about the church’s actual teachings about Mary and Marian devotions, and I landed here.

I realize that most of my questions should really be in another thread. I hope anyone who is interested or has good answers will follow me there. Thanks and God bless

Moto
 
This is one of the stumbling blocks for me becoming “fully Catholic”, in mind and heart. Some of this stuff I hear makes it sound like we can’t even approach Jesus w/out going to Mary first, and that she is in a sense holding back the wrath of God. That Jesus would not even accept us apart from His mother’s intercession. Something I see nothing of in neither the gospels nor the epistles.
 
This is one of the stumbling blocks for me becoming “fully Catholic”, in mind and heart. Some of this stuff I hear makes it sound like we can’t even approach Jesus w/out going to Mary first, and that she is in a sense holding back the wrath of God. That Jesus would not even accept us apart from His mother’s intercession. Something I see nothing of in neither the gospels nor the epistles.
You will not find these ideas in authentic Catholic teaching either. Please do not make misinformation and misunderstanding the basis for your differences with the Church. Seek out the truth of Catholic teaching but at the same time understand the whole truth could involve more than what you are comfortable with. This discovery is worth the effort. The richness of all Catholic (not only Marian) theology is a treasure.
 
This is one of the stumbling blocks for me becoming “fully Catholic”, in mind and heart. Some of this stuff I hear makes it sound like we can’t even approach Jesus w/out going to Mary first, and that she is in a sense holding back the wrath of God. That Jesus would not even accept us apart from His mother’s intercession. Something I see nothing of in neither the gospels nor the epistles.
It is a specific spirituality. It should not be a stumbling block for anyone.

Benedictine monks believe that the best way to God is monastic life. That is true for them. Dominicans believe that the best way to God is teaching, preaching, contemplative prayer and service. That is true for them. Opus Dei teaches that the path God is found in personal holiness through everyday life, especially in work. That is true for them.

Personally, I am consecrated to Mary. I offer all my prayers to Jesus through Mary. I pray with Mary whenever I pray. I have given all my merits over to Mary who knows better how to apply them for the salvation of souls and for her son’s glory than I do. That way is best for me. I believe that it would be good for the majority of Christians in the world, but it is wrong for me to force anyone into my spirituality. As long as it is not counter to what the Church teaches then it is what is best for me.

Marian spirituality should not be a stumbling block to anyone. Mary is happy to step aside and allow her son to recieve all the glory. 😉

-Tim-
 
You will not find these ideas in authentic Catholic teaching either. Please do not make misinformation and misunderstanding the basis for your differences with the Church.
Funny, I just got a book by the Holy Father (then Cardinal Ratzinger), “Theological highlights of Vatican II”, and as I casually opened it the page before my eyes was mentioning how “the old systematic Mariology was to a considerate extent (though not completely) supplanted by a positive and scriptural Mariology” and how the idea of Mary as “co-redemptrix” as well as “mediatrix of all graces” was gone, although “such titles were under the protection of papal teaching”. Yet one more controversial aspect of VII, such that the author himself adds:
There should be no misunderstanding. The Council did not aim to slowly but surely dismantle Marian devotion, and through this to gradually adjust to Protestantism. The aim did however have to take cognizance of the appeal made by separated Christians that the Church move away from a speculative theology that was unmindful of scripture.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Ultimately, “authentic” Catholic teaching is a growing vine under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We must always remember that after His glorious Resurrection, the Lord did say:
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
The Church has patiently been educated by the Holy Spirit on the most hidden and yet extraordinary role of Our Lady, and, yes, on how her intercession spares the world a good deal of the divine justice, this is no news, in fact it has been in Catholic tradition for centuries (and it even has solid scriptural foundation, though as Catholics we have always known that the Sacred Scripture goes hand in hand with Sacred Tradition and that the one cannot go without the other).

Personally I think that a lot of people experience a singular reaction as they learn of the prominence of Our Lady in the Lord’s divine will: something inside feels stirred up at the idea that either they haven’t been doing something or that they’ve been doing something wrong…I surely felt a mix of both…sometimes we react with too much passion, as if we were under obligation of quickly developing a great devotion to Our Lady…other times, in a very natural reaction that is not very proper, we simply become rather stubborn and flatly reject all those things…we reject the stressor to remove the stress…but that’s not how Christians are: we are constantly challenged to “step out of our comfort zones”, because “it is the world that promises comfort, but we are not made for comfort, we are made for greatness”…words of Pope Benedict XVI

To discover the prominent role of Our Lady is something that should move us to gratitude. It does, in a way, place an obligation on the Church (as Pope John Paul II stated): we can’t just live like Our Lady isn’t there or isn’t who she is in God’s eyes. Other than that, we do not necessarily have to advance into the three levels of devotion to her…we can very much remain in the first step, without even praying the Rosary or wearing the Scapular…simply honoring her and offering her something that is above the average veneration but infinitely less than the adoration offered to God. She isn’t who she is to make life harder for us, but, rather, to make it easier for us to imitate the good Lord, her son, since one may reasonably argue that in the fullness of grace she knows the Lord better than any other creature…in fact, she saw him grow to the fullness of age, while we know almost nothing about the Lord’s entire life before He revealed Himself.

I am just grateful for who she is, not that I know who she fully is, but I am infinitely grateful. I am grateful to know that she is my mother in grace, since I am a member of the mystical body of Christ, her son, and every time I sin and feel anguish and even, yes, despair, I may be terribly sorrowful for having betrayed the trust and love of the Beloved to even dare to look at him (like that tax collector of old…) but nothing in the world will ever stop me from turning to my heavenly Mother and ask her to help me…not, as many may think, to obtain forgiveness for sins or other things…no. To help me console the Lord, whom I have caused sadness with my sins. I read that a smile of hers can make heaven rejoice…I don’t know if it’s authentic teaching or devotional stuff, but it sure makes my heart despise sin and long for God with all strength!
 
It is a specific spirituality. It should not be a stumbling block for anyone.

Benedictine monks believe that the best way to God is monastic life. That is true for them. Dominicans believe that the best way to God is teaching, preaching, contemplative prayer and service. That is true for them. Opus Dei teaches that the path God is found in personal holiness through everyday life, especially in work. That is true for them.

-Tim-
“True for them, true for me, true for you”, I know I’ve heard this philosophy before…
 
I think the rosary is a beautiful prayer/devotion/meditation. While there are many “Hail Mary’s”, the gospel and Christ is centric.
 
Redemptoris Mater
Ioannes Paulus PP. II
1987 03 25

“The double greeting is due to the fact that in the soul of this “daughter of Sion” there is manifested, in a sense, all the “glory of grace,” that grace which “the Father…has given us in his beloved Son.” For the messenger greets Mary as “full of grace”; he calls her thus as if it were her real name. He does not call her by her proper earthly name: Miryam (= Mary), but by this new name: “full of grace.” What does this name mean? Why does the archangel address the Virgin of Nazareth in this way?”

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0224/__P3.HTM

peace
 
Personally, I am consecrated to Mary. I offer all my prayers to Jesus through Mary. I pray with Mary whenever I pray. I have given all my merits over to Mary who knows better how to apply them for the salvation of souls and for her son’s glory than I do.

/ QUOTE]

Tim …
Why would u choose this method for prayer ? I don’t think your Church taught you this path for prayer. And, " giving all your merits over to Mary" … what does this mean ? Do you pray the Lords Prayer to Mary ? Did Christ teach us and his Apostles to pray to Mary ?
 
+JMJ+
TimothyH;10065270:
Personally, I am consecrated to Mary. I offer all my prayers to Jesus through Mary. I pray with Mary whenever I pray. I have given all my merits over to Mary who knows better how to apply them for the salvation of souls and for her son’s glory than I do.

/ QUOTE]

Tim …
Why would u choose this method for prayer ? I don’t think your Church taught you this path for prayer. And, " giving all your merits over to Mary" … what does this mean ? Do you pray the Lords Prayer to Mary ? Did Christ teach us and his Apostles to pray to Mary ?
Do you believe that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant?
 
+JMJ+
brb3;10075281:
Do you believe that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant?
Whats that got to do with prayer ?

Didn’t Christ tell us how to pray ? Didn’t the Apostles show us the way via scripture in NT?
I’d beware of later, new-age ideas / revelations after 100 AD.
 
nuntym;10076120 said:
Whats that got to do with prayer ?

Didn’t Christ tell us how to pray ? Didn’t the Apostles show us the way via scripture in NT?
I’d beware of later, new-age ideas / revelations after 100 AD.Maybe you ought to move into some catcombs, cause that’s where christians worshipped. maybe you ought to give all your belongs to the Church cause that’s what they did, it’s written in scripture, and when this practiced stopped wasn’t written in scripture.
Do you pray so hard you sweat blood? If not then you aren’t praying as Christ did.
Do you only say the Our Father cause that’s the only written prayer Jesus taught? Not likely so i guess you are doing it wrong (praying) too.
 
The Apostle John was intrusted with care of Mary. Wouldn’t he, (of anyone we could ever imagine), have received a revelation from Christ on praying to Mary instead of God, if that was the Heavenly Standard for all Christians thereafter ?
 
brb3;10076180:
Maybe you ought to move into some catcombs, cause that’s where christians worshipped. maybe you ought to give all your belongs to the Church cause that’s what they did, it’s written in scripture, and when this practiced stopped wasn’t written in scripture.
Do you pray so hard you sweat blood? If not then you aren’t praying as Christ did.
Do you only say the Our Father cause that’s the only written prayer Jesus taught? Not likely so i guess you are doing it wrong (praying) too.
U will need to do better than that … to propose a convincing argument for Marian Devotion/Praying … as the Normative way to reach God.
 
Do we Catholics, for one moment, believe Mary taught the early Church before her passage … to pray to her Son thru her ? Or that she was the Mediatrix for the current or future Church ?
 
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